New new warrior 4PC T13

[Laundry]

Get a hold of yourself. A CS proc within a CS, is worth less than a CS proc outside of a CS.

I'll try to keep this as simple as possible, pay attention:
-Good case: Cast CS and it runs for a full duration of 6s, after CS expires BT/MS procs a CS which also runs it's full duration, ideal scenario we now had 12s of CS uptime.
-Bad case: Cast CS, CS procs 1.5s into the CS, total CS uptime of 7.5s.

You loose potential CS uptime if a CS procs within a CS, split hairs all you want that's how it is.

pretty sure you quoted the wrong person.

than no 4pc? Absolutely false.
(6 or 7.5 or 9 or 10.5 + free random 6) is always >= 6

Without the 4pc you can't clip CS unless you're arms, which is a terrible Idea, so yes it's completely 100% true.

[cutterx2202]

You loose potential CS uptime if a CS procs within a CS, split hairs all you want that's how it is.

False. You don't lose anything if it procs within another CS. It can still proc again right after whatever current CS is up finishes. It can proc every damn 3 seconds if it wants to. Procing within a CS doesn't lower it's chances to proc outside the CS as well.

---------- Post added 2011-10-08 at 04:29 PM ----------

Your Bloodthirst has a 6% chance and your Mortal Strike has a 13% chance to apply the Colossus Smash effect on your target for 6 sec.

Keep in mind we're talking about a CS effect and not an actual CS, which would take a gcd to use as well as cause it to go on cd for 20s. Being just an effect, you get the 100% arp without using CS.

I think that's where you may be getting caught up conceptually.

[Laundry]

Good god this must be a troll.

Let me go kiddie math on you for a second so that you can see exactly what we're talking about here.

CS lasts 6 seconds.
You start a fight using CS and then casting BT right after.
There's a 1.5 sec GCD between the two.
6-1.5=4.5
CS procs from 4 pc
You refreshed CS when there was still 4.5 seconds left on it's duration, bumping it to (6+1.5) 7.5 seconds. You GAINED 1.5 seconds of CS uptime.
You lost 4.5 seconds of TOTAL CS uptime.

the difference is 3 seconds of CS uptime which you lost.

If you want just numbers (Seeing as your avatar is a calculator, which you seem to know how to use but not interpret):
6=6
4 Pc proc
6-4.5=1.5 (You lost 4.5 seconds due to clipping)
1.5+6=7.5


Do you understand now? Please for the love of god tell me you understand this simple ass concept.

[cutterx2202]

The early 4pc had the ability CS get it's cd refreshed and not an effect. Even then, you didn't have to use the new CS within another one, you could wait until the old one finished.

[Calamari]

False. You don't lose anything if it procs within another CS. It can still proc again right after whatever current CS is up finishes. It can proc every damn 3 seconds if it wants to. Procing within a CS doesn't lower it's chances to proc outside the CS as well.

I know what you're going at, true it would be possible that the 4pc procs back to back, but while that would be lucky, it would not be as lucky as if it procced -after- one CS runs its full duration. Why? This has to do with PPM averages, while it's entirely possible that once every blue moon someone somewhere might see 100 procs in a row, the normal case with %-tied procs is that they only occur so many times in a certain ammount of time, since the procs are quite limited, we want the most out of each proc.

Now lets say the 4pc had an average of 3 CS procs per minute as fury. How do we gain the most out of these 3 procs? Well they are tied to luck, but if he had it our way, we would of course have them proc right after one of our own CS-casts expires, for a full extra 6s of CS uptime out of each proc. But if we really hit the crap-pot with our foot, and the 4pc procced right after a CS-cast, then worst case we might only see 1.5s of extra CS uptime out of each proc.

[Deleted]

Good god this must be a troll.

Let me go kiddie math on you for a second so that you can see exactly what we're talking about here.

CS lasts 6 seconds.
You start a fight using CS and then casting BT right after.
There's a 1.5 sec GCD between the two.
6-1.5=4.5
CS procs from 4 pc
You refreshed CS when there was still 4.5 seconds left on it's duration, bumping it to (6+1.5) 7.5 seconds. You GAINED 1.5 seconds of CS uptime.
You lost 4.5 seconds of TOTAL CS uptime.

the difference is 3 seconds of CS uptime which you lost.

If you want just numbers (Seeing as your avatar is a calculator, which you seem to know how to use but not interpret):
6=6
4 Pc proc
6-4.5=1.5 (You lost 4.5 seconds due to clipping)
1.5+6=7.5


Do you understand now? Please for the love of god tell me you understand this simple ass concept.

To be fair, with a 3 second CD and 6 second duration it is designed so it will 'maybe' overwrite or will 'more likely' reapply just as its about to drop off.
You have no way of knowing when its going to proc, and the duration is always longer than the CD on BT. So you will be using CS on CD anyway (Just waiting for the current to drop off).

Sure, cutting off the end of a CS and reapply is not an IDEAL situation, but its not really a DPS loss. 3 second CD and 6 second duration, its going to happen.

[cutterx2202]

You refreshed CS when there was still 4.5 seconds left on it's duration, bumping it to (6+1.5) 7.5 seconds. You GAINED 1.5 seconds of CS uptime.

Good, you get this concept, I think.

You lost 4.5 seconds of TOTAL CS uptime.

Apparantly not.[quote]

There is no lose. If your base comparison is no 4pc, you had 6 seconds of CS. With the current 4pc, and an immediate proc, you had 7.5 seconds of CS for free. There is no negative.

What you are referring to as your base is if the 4pc added 6s when it procs. That can't be your base for comparrison because no where does that exist. Your base must be no set bonus.

[Laundry]

I realize that. I only started posting my reasoning for even mentioning clipping. The 4-set is still extremely good and useful, but cutterx seems to think that's it's not any bit of a DPS loss to have CS clipped.

If that were the case, warlocks could spam dots all day and not have to worry about the 2 second window they have to reapply dots. It works off of the same principle.

The early 4pc had the ability CS get it's cd refreshed and not an effect. Even then, you didn't have to use the new CS within another one, you could wait until the old one finished.

The 4pc doesnt cooldown CS, it puts it up on the target.

What you are referring to as your base is if the 4pc added 6s when it procs. That can't be your base for comparrison because no where does that exist. Your base must be no set bonus.

it does add 6 seconds....Jesus christ go read the set bonus

[cutterx2202]

Now lets say the 4pc had an average of 3 CS procs per minute as fury.

It's not PPM. No where does it say or infer it's PPM. It's a flat %. If it were PPM, there'd be an icd usually tied to weapon speed. That is not the case. This is not PPM, it's % based.

[Deleted]

I realize that. I only started posting my reasoning for even mentioning clipping. The 4-set is still extremely good and useful, but cutterx seems to think that's it's not any bit of a DPS loss to have CS clipped.

If that were the case, warlocks could spam dots all day and not have to worry about the 2 second window they have to reapply dots. It works off of the same principle.



The 4pc doesnt cooldown CS, it puts it up on the target.



it does add 6 seconds....Jesus christ go read the set bonus

Listen,
If you have 9 seconds left on rend, and you re-apply - you have lost damage because you could use an ability/abilities in between and reapply later.
But
If you have 4.5 seconds on CS and it reapplies, you haven't lost any damage - its a proc, its not an ability. There's no downfall to a proc....

[cutterx2202]

BRB, real life chore. I'm sure you'll get it eventually, Laundry.

[SilenceDHEU]

It's still not a great 4 set for Arms PvE in my mind...

[Calamari]

It's not PPM. No where does it say or infer it's PPM. It's a flat %. If it were PPM, there'd be an icd usually tied to weapon speed. That is not the case. This is not PPM, it's % based.

PPM is a concept for illustrating how many procs one can on average expect from any %-tied proc chance, there is no 'flat' to luck. You try hard to sell your point that each proc is worth as much as the last, sadly they are not, a proc within a CS is worth less than a proc that runs it's full duration outside of a CS. Good luck with chores.

[Laundry]

Can someone please post something in terms these people can understand? It's obvious that my math blatantly explains the situation, but for some reason that isn't good enough.

I'll try once more to explain this:
THESE IDEAS ARE BASED ON THE FACT THAT YOU HAVE 4 PC T13, AND COMPARE THE DAMAGE GAIN BETWEEN A CS CLIP AND A PROC AFTER A FULL CS DURATION

FIRST: IT ISN'T A DAMAGE LOSS. It's an OVERALL damage loss, NOT a DPS loss. If I have to explain that one more fucking time I'm going to end being banned from these forums. Seriously, read what I am fucking posting.

SECOND: Clipping a debuff is BAD. this lowers OVERALL damage than if you did not clip the debuff. Do we all get this? Do we all understand it? I hope so, because if not you need to stop playing WoW as soon as you can.

THIRD: Let's refer back to my post on the math of the problem. While unlikely it CAN happen, and when it does you will do less damage overall than you would had the proc occurred at the END of CS's full duration.

Holy shit, if either of you do NOT get this after that explanation....

[Calamari]

Can someone please post something in terms these people can understand? It's obvious that my math blatantly explains the situation, but for some reason that isn't good enough.

I'll try once more to explain this:
THESE IDEAS ARE BASED ON THE FACT THAT YOU HAVE 4 PC T13, AND COMPARE THE DAMAGE GAIN BETWEEN A CS CLIP AND A PROC AFTER A FULL CS DURATION

FIRST: IT ISN'T A DAMAGE LOSS. It's an OVERALL damage loss, NOT a DPS loss. If I have to explain that one more fucking time I'm going to end being banned from these forums. Seriously, read what I am fucking posting.

SECOND: Clipping a debuff is BAD. this lowers OVERALL damage than if you did not clip the debuff. Do we all get this? Do we all understand it? I hope so, because if not you need to stop playing WoW as soon as you can.

THIRD: Let's refer back to my post on the math of the problem. While unlikely it CAN happen, and when it does you will do less damage overall than you would had the proc occurred at the END of CS's full duration.

Holy shit, if either of you do NOT get this after that explanation....

I'm on the same page as you on this, ideally the proc would extend the CS duration when it procs inside an on-going CS, not overwrite it.

[Laundry]

Yes I know, the post was directed at cutterx and clampy.

[Deleted]

What's this argument about anyway? Chill guys. I think you misunderstand each other.

Proccing the 4-set within a CS isn't worth as much as a 4-set proc outside of CS, period.

Can we get along now, please?

[cutterx2202]

THESE IDEAS ARE BASED ON THE FACT THAT YOU HAVE 4 PC T13, AND COMPARE THE DAMAGE GAIN BETWEEN A CS CLIP AND A PROC AFTER A FULL CS DURATION

Why in the world would you compare those two? Both those scenarios CAN and WILL happen with the current 4pc. BOTH are a dps gain over no 4pc. That's why you're all f'd up in your logic, you're comparing the wrong things. (The base you're comparing to is wrong, as your base is not (no set bonus).)

---------- Post added 2011-10-08 at 05:28 PM ----------

What's this argument about anyway? Chill guys. I think you misunderstand each other.

Proccing the 4-set within a CS isn't worth as much as a 4-set proc outside of CS, period.

Can we get along now, please?

I get that, Mest. Both situations will happen often with the current model and both are a gain over no 4pc proc at all. What the other two seem to think is the 4pc would be a dps loss (compared to no 4pc) if it procs within a CS.

[Calamari]

Why in the world would you compare those two? Both those scenarios CAN and WILL happen with the current 4pc. BOTH are a dps gain over no 4pc. That's why you're all f'd up in your logic, you're comparing the wrong things. (The base you're comparing to is wrong, as your base is not (no set bonus).)

---------- Post added 2011-10-08 at 05:28 PM ----------



I get that, Mest. Both situations will happen often with the current model and both are a gain over no 4pc proc at all. What the other two seem to think is the 4pc would be a dps loss over no 4pc if it procs within a CS.

I think what cutter is trying to say in his own unfriendly way: "It's gona clip either way the 4pc is a dps gain".

[Laundry]

No, that's not what was stated. Read the very first point that I broght up in my previous post, then read what you just said, and come to realization that you're incapable of reading.

Sorry iyona, but I don't know how I could've gotten anymore clear about the point I was trying to make, and each time I made it, cutterx decided I was wrong and extremely unintelligent. I'm not going to stand for that, especially when the point i'm making contains his point, but he fails to see it.