Pro-lifer argument: "what if your parents decided to abort you?!"

[Nurasu]

Christians believe in a fantasy called the soul. Because jezus who came from an adultress or worse instead got a soul injected from the moment she got pregnant.

Muslims Don't believe in that that's why you have less irrational fearmongering in that religion.

They also believe that soul goes immediately to heaven if its host is killed before it's old enough to understand Jesus' graphic death, so I'm not sure what the loss really is for them.

[Magnagarde]

Both pretty unimportant arguements. There are cases and times when an abortion shouldn't be allowed and then there are those when it should. Anyone who is standing firmly on either end of this debate, meaning wanting hunhinged abortions or wanting to see abortions banned alltogether, are people who are probably so stuck in a certain belief that they can't see reason.

[Has lost its way]

I get that you're baiting me, but it's pretty low-effort, dude.



You just declared it, without justification.

Without justification, it can be summarily dismissed without consideration. It doesn't mean anything.



No, I'm comparing the start of personhood to the end of personhood, since those are the only points where personhood changes from "yea" to "nay" or vice versa. It's the only legitimate comparison there is.



You do not know this. This is you claiming prophetic powers to see the future, and I don't consider claims of magical foresight to be a valid basis for anything.

- - - Updated - - -



You haven't invoked a god.

You have claimed the ability to foretell the future with perfect precision.

Oracles and such have traditionally been religious expressions, y'know.

Your entire argument is somehow growth and decay are the same thing rather then opposites...

- - - Updated - - -

Christians believe in a fantasy called the soul. Because jezus who came from an adultress or worse instead got a soul injected from the moment she got pregnant.

Muslims Don't believe in that that's why you have less irrational fearmongering in that religion.

I'm sure that relates to my question somehow but the greatest code breakers in the world are puzzled by how.

[Endus]

That's exactly what it is though, saying it's anything else is sugar coating lies. You're killing a baby when you're having an abortion, you're not planting trees. I know this is a hard concept for you to understand, but stopping the heart of a baby is killing it. Much like if I stopped your heart, I would be killing you.

And a fetus is not a baby.

That's why miscarriages aren't treated as homicides.

Your entire argument is somehow growth and decay are the same thing rather then opposites...

Nothing I said had anything to do with either. You're making shit up, again.

[Noxx79]

One party consent is still rape.

O....k...? You can consent to doing things to your own body. If someone forces that on you, then you did not consent.

In your strange example, in only one of the conditions is consent violated: when a man attempts to force an abortion on an unwilling woman...

[Malkiah]

"I don't consider it a baby so it's not! "Experts" don't either!"

Funny, that's why people enslaved blacks for hundreds of years, no one considered them people either. Funny how it was the democrats that also fought to keep slavery while it was republicans that put it to an end, amusing how we keep going in this circle.

i'm going to have to side with you on this - the whole "when is it a baby?" debate is a pointless distraction from the issue, it's a tactic employed by the forced-birther movement that has been extremely effective because generally speaking liberals are weak willed and lack any spine to stand for their convictions.

i've never been comfortable with letting that become a focal point of a discussion on abortion, because i think the point should simply be conceded.
if you want it to be so badly, fine, it's a fully formed baby with chubby little arms and legs and a drooly little face that looks just like gramma from the moment that the guy's dick gets hard just thinking about being able to have sex.
it's still OK to murder the thing directly in the face, because we as a society have collectively agreed that there are many acceptable circumstances for killing a person, and an unwanted pregnancy (for any reason, or no reason) is one such circumstance.

[Has lost its way]

And a fetus is not a baby.

That's why miscarriages aren't treated as homicides.


Nothing I said had anything to do with either. You're making shit up, again.

Except it does. You keep comparing decomposition and the end of life to growth and the beginning of it. Your feelings are getting in the way of the basic biology at play here. You keep comparing two opposites and declare them as identical and it is baffling.

[Nurasu]

Except it does. You keep comparing decomposition and the end of life to growth and the beginning of it. Your feelings are getting in the way of the basic biology at play here. You keep comparing two opposites and declare them as identical and it is baffling.

Bodies can continue to grow after brain death. In fact, they can still do all kinds of things while clinically dead.

Shewmon presented evidence for many expressions of apparently integrative functioning in ventilated BD bodies (Shewmon, 2007a). The impressive list, which he first published in 2001 in this journal, is worth repeating here (Shewmon, 2001, 470–2):

• respiration (BD bodies are apneic, so air must be mechanically supplied to the lungs);
• nutrition;
• homeostasis;
• elimination, detoxification, and recycling of cellular wastes throughout the body;
• energy balance, involving interactions among liver, endocrine systems, muscle, and fat;
• maintenance of body temperature and fluid and electrolyte balance;
• wound healing;
• fighting of infections and foreign bodies through interactions among the immune system, lymphatics, bone marrow, and microvasculature;
• development of febrile response to infection;
• cardiovascular and hormonal stress responses to unanesthetized incisions;
• successful gestation of a fetus in a BD woman;
• sexual maturation of a BD child;
• proportional growth of a BD child;
• resuscitability and stabilizability following cardiac arrest;
• ability to recover from episodes of hypotension, aspiration, and sepsis;
• overall ability to maintain physiological stability with little medical intervention (although with much basic nursing care) in a nursing facility or even at home, after discharge from an intensive care unit.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4889814/

[Aurrora]

And a fetus is not a baby.

That's why miscarriages aren't treated as homicides.

They are when people are charged with fetal homicide.

[Has lost its way]

Bodies can continue to grow after brain death. In fact, they can still do all kinds of things while clinically dead.



https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4889814/

That is why I keep using the world healthy in every point I make. I understand medical exceptions.

[Nurasu]

That is why I keep using the world healthy in every point I make. I understand medical exceptions.

I just don't see how it's hard to make the leap from "brain activity is the beginning of life" to "the end of that brain activity is the end of life", considering all other physical processes can be the same.

[JohnBrown1917]

Anyone who says this believes in identity politics.

Identity politics has nothing to do with abortions, how desperate are you?

[Elegiac]

My response to that argument: what if I wish that they did?

My response: What if my auntie had nuts?

She'd be my uncle, and I would be not giving a shit about having been aborted because I wouldn't be alive. It's a win-win.

[Moadar]

There used to be two sides to this issue now there are at least four. Use to just be those who are for aborting before life occurs and those who are against any abortion.

Now it's that plus those who believe abortion should be used even up to the delivery(and even beyond) and those who are just against the later abortions barring certain circumstances.

[Aurrora]

My response: What if my auntie had nuts?

She'd be my uncle, and I would be not giving a shit about having been aborted because I wouldn't be alive. It's a win-win.

Are you saying your aunt is also your mother?

Sweet home Alabama....

[Draco-Onis]

You're the one claiming all conservatives couldn't care less about a baby once it's born, you're the one who's desperate now that you've been called out.

Then list any social program for mothers and kids that conservatives support since you guys pretty much oppose all of them.

[MoFalcon]

you wouldn't know and it wouldn't matter.


What a stupid question!

[Malkiah]

So you also think slavery is fine also as long as a good number of people support it?

what in the absolute hell is that even supposed to mean?
i get that goal-post changing and non sequitur are your people's stock-in-trade, but even for someone like you, that was so absurdly random that it's baffling.
the argument from relative morality is useless here because the comparison point you're using is in a completely different league, morally speaking.

here's a simple analogy:
1. you're in your house. the door is unlocked. you have expensive items in your living room. someone walks into your house unannounced and uninvited.
it's generally agreed upon (most notably in the same places trying to outlaw abortion) that you can kill this person for violating your personal space and making you feel unsafe, even if you can't prove they were actually a danger to you - simply feeling threatened in your own property is sufficient cause to legally justify murdering an adult.

2. you're in your body. by a series of circumstances (the what and the why are irrelevant) someone winds up in your abdomen unannounced and uninvited.
i should think the same rules apply here - if you feel threatened or unsafe by the presence of this intruder, being able to defend yourself by killing them seems to fall into the same category of self defense, and whether they posed any real threat to you is irrelevant to whether or not you *feel* threatened.

we think it's OK to murder someone as long as you're in the military and were given an order to do it. it's OK to murder someone if a professional con-man convinces a dozen random schlubs that the person did something bad.
there are countless examples in western society, and the US especially, where it's been collectively agreed upon that certain circumstances forfeit an individual's right to life.
if you want to call a fertilized egg or a zygote a baby, fine - i'm comfortable letting you have your delusions if it makes it easier for your to maintain your erections.
but the trade-off for letting you live in your fantasy land is that the rules of our society dictate that baby killing is acceptable.

- - - Updated - - -

You're the one claiming all conservatives couldn't care less about a baby once it's born, you're the one who's desperate now that you've been called out.

that isn't a "claim", that is irrefutable observable fact.

[pahbi]

Have women not yet earned enough trust to make the decision themselves? FFS, what more do they have to do?

- P

[Felya]

This thread is stupid... if people honestly answered the OP, this thread would have 0 posts.