Yes it is.
Yes it is.
It’s the worst thing done to a class ever. It’s on the same level as making fire mages all of a sudden be healers. Stupid and pointless melee class in a sea of better melee classes.
*looks at the classic hunter survival talent tree*
Seems to me they always wanted survival to be melee but just couldn't figure out how they wanted it to go so they left it a hodgepodge until Wrath, gave up entirely Cata thru WoD, then finally figured out something they liked that was workable.
The most difficult thing to do is accept that there is nothing wrong with things you don't like and accept that people can like things you don't.
As far as revamps go I’d say it’s one of the best after some of the clunk was fixed going from legion to Bfa.
I’d say assassin in legion was worse.
All three pally specs in cata getting holy power.
Enh shaman going into legion.
Moonkin going into legion
And likely others that are slipping my mind. Though I’d think it’s safe to say it’s the more divisive revamp.
Maybe because they are a popular PVP option for the Hunters, they may think is ok as long as they have their niche
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By the way, i wonder, why are people so angry about the new Survival hunter? I mean... in general, Survival have always been the least popular option, it may have had a path or 2 where it shinned, but... it wasn't really popular either.
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Lets be fair, that have nothing to do with "players don't like this spec" is more of how Mythic is, if you need a hunter, you don't need it melee. (Range class have that advantage in general, and more with hunters, that are range class with the mobility of a melee class)
what if the old surv is reseverd for the ranged dps spec of dark rangers.
my guts tells me, dark rangers will have 2 specs like DH, a tank one and a ranged one, and on its build, will offer options to go like the old survival or something more bursty, being a full mobile ranged class, with either all shots instant cast or the filler/generator with a cast time.
Combination of things. The purists and people that are upset about losing range SV and stick to the “I play hunter to be range!”
Another factor is that those who are open to it realize it does shit dps and brings nothing to the table that other melee can do better.
There are some who play it at the high end, but those seem to be Hunters that are in guilds that can make up for the lack of damage the spec brings.
Honestly, as it stands I would say it’s the worst revamp, but it could be one of the best if it was actually made competitive. Last I’ve seen Blizzard still has SV internal GCD set at 1.5 seconds vs all other melee having 1 second, SV does not have 5% parry baseline like other melee, and it’s damage is just abysmal. If Blizzard fixes these things it could see a nice rise in popularity, it’s just unfortunate that we won’t really know how well received it could be until these issues are addressed.
For me personally, yes. And not just survival imo, MM didn't exactly go from shit to amazing either. The only winner is BM in my book.
Not saying the hunter situation is a tragedy, and other specs like combat turning into an RNG pirate are also questionable, but still. You look at balance for example and how extremely elevated the spec is because of the Legion changes, or even demo finding an identity after DH came and yanked it from them, hunter just doesn't look great.
yes, hunters basically have 2 specs now
Top 2 worst revamp or rework for any spec was the change for Survival going from TBC to WotLK. Only BfA MM beats that one.
Melee survival is actually fun to play imo. Legion Survival wasn't rewarding enough as some say, while BfA surv flows better and is easier to play. There could have been a middle ground. I am a bit disappointed that they don't make Mongoose Bite and Flanking Strike baseline, but still it will be a top 5-6 spec for me going forward in SL.
Overall though Hunter only got Survival that is fun for me and thats a shame. Going for my favorite iteration of any spec in the game(Marksman Hunter in Legion) to worst(MM Hunter in BfA) it has been a rough one. So I am very happy about Survival was here to make me play my first and most played character in BfA as well. And BM is just so too boring for me to get some good playtime on.
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Gaming and WoW stuff
Pretending the dumpster fire that was Legion SV was better than BFA SV from any standpoint is a pretty hot take.
Uh, yes it was. Legion SV was rarely competitive and was only good in very particular burst cleave scenarios.
It really does sound like you're looking at Legion SV through rose-tinted goggles. It was a deeply troubled spec even for people who liked melee Hunters.
There were plenty of times where it wasn't the dominant ranged spec yet it was still very popular; Siege of Orgrimmar being a notable example.
Being melee is a nail in the coffin. It makes it significantly harder for SV to stand out.
In the past, SV being viable at all in a raid usually meant it saw decent participation and if it were anywhere close to top DPS for Hunters it would usually be the most popular pick. Now you have tiers like Uldir where SV was ahead of the other specs yet still wasn't picked because of the melee.
This isn't Monster Hunter. This is WoW. WoW Hunters were from the beginning defined around ranged weapons and pets. This means people who liked melee generally didn't pick Hunter. When they go to that class and force a melee spec on it there isn't going to be a warm reception in the class for it, and history has proven that it didn't give many melee players reason to reroll either.
Nope, that's just your poor understanding of the intent of the Survival tree in Classic and BC. It was meant to be the tree that added versatility particularly in PvP. Part of that was buffing melee attacks because in PvP you would undoubtedly get caught within the minimum range quite often. It was still intended to be played primarily at ranged, however. That came with the class, and it didn't take long for Survival to have its own ranged-centric talents.
https://i.imgur.com/kBVr5Uc.png
This is the original WoW manual page from 2004. It states the intent of the class pretty clearly.
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Survival was actually routinely a popular spec when it was ranged. You're conditioned to think of it as an unpopular spec because melee Survival has been around for 4 years now and has been unpopular the entire time.
Unless Readiness was absolutely crucial and essential for your enjoyment of Survival this is a positively ridiculous thing to say. WotLK Survival basically took BC Survival and added stuff to it. The only major loss from a playstyle perspective was Readiness becoming a Marksmanship talent.
But I know we've been over this before and you will just deny and deflect with more absurd arguments.
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Gaming and WoW stuff
There are so many melee specs in game, it was a big mistake to make survival a melee spec, only because of this. Especially when there are so many melee trying to get into raids and that leads to other problems and so on... I mean, what were the classes we got after TBC? DK, monk, DH, all melee... Did we need melee hunter too?
But ofc, this is not the only reason why it was a mistake. My original character was a hunter, played with it through vanilla and TBC. "Melee hunter" was a community joke back then (vanilla), like "hunter weapon" was. And then, we got melee hunters... Bliz has humor, I got to give them that.
I went rogue for WotLK, even when hunters were pretty dope for TBC, like top DPS material, because I wanted to play melee (I had a rogue alt I was enjoying a lot). And if you want to play mDPS, you'll probably choose a proper mDPS class, one with 3 mDPS specs or at least 2, like warrior. And if you want to play a rDPS class, then you'll probably choose a class with 3 rDPS specs, or at least 2. And that's because it's a lot more probable to find a spec you like to play or a spec that is optimal for what you like to do in WoW, depedning on what one's priority is.
But but but... druid... someone may say. Well, I am not talking about hybrids, but about pure DPS classes. If you choose to play a hybrid, then you should expect all kinds of different specs. So, when talking about a pure DPS class, like a Hunter, it's close to useless having a melee spec, in my opinion ofc. For most it's like having only 2 specs to choose from and this doesn't help you enjoy the class or the game. Yeah, for most, not all. But still, class design should follow what most people enjoy, otherwise you are left with a game played by the few.
Last edited by orsraunia; 2020-09-14 at 08:11 AM.
Is it the worst revamp?
From a popularity perspective I think so. SV was always quite popular, and now it's the least played spec since the change.
From a gameplay perspective, it's hard to say. IMO the melee survival isn't a horrible spec to play. I would take ranged SV back any day of the week; but seeing as we're seemingly stuck with melee SV, there are some merits to be found.
There are some very fun elements: The mongoose fury window burst, especially at higher haste levels; Wildfire Infusion gameplay; a higher level of focus management that BM and MM don't really have; the ability to do really good damage from range for a melee spec.
The fact so many people dismiss this, makes me question if they even played it properly at end game content (raids / high M+ / arena PvP).
However the spec needs attention to make it good, blizzard designed something and now sort of refuse to give it attention.
The spec also lacks direction, is this trying to be a DoT spec or is this a high damage brawler; it seems blizzard isn't quite sure either.
Oh no definitely not.
Classic SV wasn't to make you a full on melee hunter; that wasn't even the intent.
The tree was designed to increase your surivability overal (more parry chance / deterrence / survivalist for +10% HP) + make you more dangerous when you had to go into melee.
Basically instead of increasing your strong points (ranged damage), survival patched some of the weak points (deadzone kiting / melee range damage).
Without SV you just wanted to kite and stay as far away as possible, with SV you could actually run through your deadzone into melee and be dangerous, because of mongoose bite / counter attack / improved wingclip. And if you got the snare off, you could run away again and restart ranged damage.
Lightning Reflexes was the prime reason people went deep into SV anyway, the +15% agility pretty much saved the tree as it could recover some of the damage you would lose by not going into BM / MM.
This is not even remotely true.
SV has always been one of the most popular specs outside of Legion/BFA.
Since I doubt Blizzard will ever acknowledge their mistake and make survival ranged again, I only see one option to give it some more popularity:
Change SV to be a tanking spec!
It's in the name already, no renaming needed.
Use the aspects as tanking CDs, get some interaction with the pet - have it fetch adds, a CD to transfer aggro to/from it, stuff like that - and I'm sure it would be played significantly more than today.
Melee survival is superior in every way, ppl just want to faceroll on BM and dont like a spec that takes some form of actual critical thinking to play.