Last edited by eurojust; 2021-07-28 at 12:39 PM.
We do know that Maiev visited the grave. Because Khadgar asks her for another way since she knows the tomb. (And it's absurd for her to "know" her if she only went to W3).
The second issue is whether or not she has the job to make them Wisp. IF it is not Her work of her then when she said that "I condemn" it does not mean that "it did not turn them in Wisp".
For my part and what I know about the Wisp (which is little) I think she does not have that job but it is something natural.
So when Elune says that "I condemn" them, it is that she could have helped in Teldrazil. Which agrees with what Tyrande and the Kaldorei say in BFA.
Last edited by geco; 2021-07-28 at 12:41 PM.
On a side note, we now know the true reason why they didn't want Maiev to become the Night Warrior : Because Night Warrior Maiev would have never picked renewal over vengeance.
No, it was actually very much not established for the reasons I just listed. A single game mechanic doesn't have more weight than countless of quests and NPCs that contradict it.
That's the meaning of "retcon".
Can you link me the relevant parts or a summary? If they revert that horrible retcon then this might be one of the first good changes I've seen from the writing department in a long time.
I mean, there wasn't any way they were going to write a satisfying conclusion to this botched character arc to begin with but this cinematic really takes the cake.
Yeah, sure. That's just what Night Elves always did with their ancestors. Use them for slave labour, personal hygiene or mass suicide bombings.
The absolute state of Warcraft lore in 2021:
Kyrians: We need to keep chucking people into the Maw because it's our job.
Also Kyrians: Why is the Maw growing stronger despite all our efforts?
There are a couple of ways of looking at it, depending on how charitable you want to be with Elune as a character. Either:
A.) Elune could have intervened but didn't, such as creating a holy barrier around Teldrassil and preventing the artillery fire from setting it on fire. She allowed the razing of Teldrassil to occur to send the souls of the dead to Ardenweald and her sister, which would make her indirectly complicit in Sylvanas' actions.
B.) She simply "earmarked" the souls of the soon-to-be-dead for Ardenweald, a divine IOU of a sort that would've seen them funneled to Ardenweald as opposed to becoming Wisps or whatever their fate would've otherwise been. This wouldn't make her complicit in that she'd have no real agency in the events that occurred.
C.) She did nothing but observe and let the natural processes of death take place (with the implication that her intercession could've lessened or prevented a number of deaths) ensuring a maximal haul of souls for Ardenweald. This wouldn't really make her complicit, IMO; but it still would've been pretty morally bleak for a goddess with her portfolio.
"We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead
Found it, it's just a paragraph long. No such luck I'm afraid. It's a marginally better than the Legion version in the sense that it's no longer contradictory to all the non-wisp night elf ghosts we've seen. Also that the wisp is explicitly the physical shape of a soul, not the soul itself, so they still move on instead of the night elves telling their ancestors to off themselves as unpaid labour. Here's the picture actually:
Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2021-07-28 at 12:54 PM.
Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.
Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.
I don’t think it’s said anywhere that Elune is omnipotent. Her sister certainly isn’t and she’s even in a realm of the Shadowlands that we interact with.
Most of the god-like beings had no idea what was going on, from the lesser ones such as Bwonsamdi, up to the Winter Queen & Elune. Even in the book, Bwonsamdi knew something was up, but didn’t know to what extent or how bad.
Last edited by Eapoe; 2021-07-28 at 12:59 PM.
We have two important clues.
1 Elune says I condemn them.
2 Tyrande says that Elune abandoned them when he does the Night warfare ritual.
We can't know what he did (or what he didn't do) But we do know that he somehow screwed up during the Teldrazzil Burning.
Also like Tyrande she knew nothing of the beyond. Surely I screw it up with something that has to do with those who are alive or not.
The Wisp thing would make everything clear but unfortunately we do not have any reliable idae of them. And we sure never will.
We know little of Elune, there are a couple more nefarious possibilities. Elune told/influenced Zooval/Sylvanas into having the Tree attacked on the prediction she wouldn't intervene. She thought she was using Zooval but would "send" the NE to Ardenweald to aid her sister, not knowing of the arbiters fate.
This would explain better why she feels she "condemned" the NE.
Some of your reasons I feel sort of miss points. She would know that NE are likely going to Ardenweald, so "sending the NE" as she said would mean she actively sought to have them killed so they could move on to aid Ardenweald. Correct me if I'm wrong but Wisps are what happen after the NE body dies (old age) not when they are outright killed.
Idk if I'm doing well explaining as I'm rambling the idea.
She wished to aid Ardenweald. In order to do so she designed a plan to have the NE sent there. I think the attack on Teldrassil was predicated by her as a way of actively helping Ardenweald. Her "lucking" into the attack on the tree makes her sound like a lazy layabout.
No she didn't. She doesn't know the vengeance vs ardenweald situation. Not before, not now. So she hasn't been able to make that choice because of that reason. She has made it clear she wants vengeance. But she hasn't made the choice of vengeance or something bigger than herself.
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Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/
Elune’s words are definitely not the best choice to have been said. When I first saw this I started asking myself if she meant that she did nothing and let her people be killed by Sylvanas in order to help Ardenweald. Knowing that Ardenweald is meant for nature-like beings and that’s where they go, it would seem like that’s the case as Elune should know they would go there and not need guided, in some fashion, to get to the Weald.
I think the actual meaning is that she just guided them to go that way while not directly ferrying them herself. The only reason I think that is because no one in that cutscene gave it a second thought. That, or everyone just decided that Elune letting her children be burnt alive was the correct thing to do.
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Bwonsamdi is also a Loa of death and is more involved with the dealings of the afterlife as he is known to keep souls for himself.
Thanks for the picture. It's marginally less frustrating than the Legion version in that it resolves the coexistence of night elf spirits and wisps but as you've said the main reason why the whole "night elves = wisp" thing is bonkers to begin with isn't really addressed by this.
The absolute state of Warcraft lore in 2021:
Kyrians: We need to keep chucking people into the Maw because it's our job.
Also Kyrians: Why is the Maw growing stronger despite all our efforts?
I don't really think Elune is a nefarious being, nor one who routinely and/or directly intercedes in the lives of her worshippers, so I would heavily doubt she would interface with Zovaal on any level (and likely can't in the first place). The cinematic strongly implies that Elune's feeling of having condemned the souls of the Night Elven dead was upon learning they had been sent to the Maw, and not the original desired outcome of them going to Ardenweald and the Winter Queen. Assuming Elune has no agency in what happened at Teldrassil (e.g. no real way of stopping Sylvanas and no way of limiting casualties), then earmarking the souls would really be all she could do to give their deaths a purpose beyond senseless genocide at Sylvanas' hands. This would be more in keeping with the characterization of Elune we've previously known, insofar as that goes.
While I concede it is possible Elune is not as benevolent as her previous characterization would show, I think it is unlikely she actively designed or prompted the tragedy of Teldrassil. She probably wouldn't view it as "lucking" onto it, either. She betrays a fair amount of resignation in her words to the Winter Queen, as if what happened at Teldrassil were more or less fated to occur, and she simply used the tragedy to (hopefully) greater effect than it would've otherwise resulted in.
"We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead
I don't see how it's a false choice? Tyrande can still murder Sylvanas to fulfill her vengeance. It's not concluded until Tyrande makes said choice. We all know what the choice gonna be I'm sure... But that has no bearing on Tyrande making the choice for her character arc.
Now she has to make the choice to either do so or save ardenweald...she couldn't make that choice earlier because of lack of knowledge.
Yes writing is bad..not aruuing that.
Last edited by Kumorii; 2021-07-28 at 01:30 PM.
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I'm not saying she is straight out nefarious. I'm saying her concept of right and wrong is different than what we would consider. To her, having the NE killed and the Tree destroyed which linked them to Azeroth is a fine way of helping her sister because they'll have a second life anyway. We also find out that the Night Warrior isn't wrathful vengeance, its just a boon she grants if she likes you. If it were a tool of righteousness, Elune would have said Tyrande has a mission to complete. But instead she just shrugs and says "its her choice".
Maiev was a Watcher and peerless tracker, she would likely have committed the terrain to memory from just her visit in WC3: TFT, especially given the strong impact that it had on her life afterward. The Tomb of Sargeras was a deeply forbidden place, and for good reason - it's also worth pointing out that Naisha was originally killed by a massive cave-in during their flight from the Tomb and wouldn't have a grave to speak of, it's highly likely that Maiev wouldn't even know where her body was.
It's strongly implied, to the point of being more or less direct, that Elune's choice of "condemn" means about their ultimate fate in the Maw, and not their deaths as mortals. Elune is highly likely not responsible for their deaths, but meant to be responsible for their arrival in Ardenweald in order to both aid the Winter Queen and possibly be reborn once more into the mortal world. Tyrande was herself unaware of what was happening, as were the rest of the kaldorei people; and both were speaking from a place of understandable confusion and anger.
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She may indeed have a blue/orange type morality that is different from ours, but on the same token she's always been a beneficent force for the kaldorei, so I don't think she'd sacrifice them out of hand even to aid her sister (in some Machiavellian detached god type manner). The Night Warrior seems to be a form of invocation that prompts an avatar of Elune (specifically her vengeance in the case of the Night Warrior), so as Tyrande was the acting conduit for Elune at the moment it was right that it should be her choice, especially since it was her people that was being decided for. I don't think it was an apathetic decision on Elune's part, but rather giving Tyrande rightful agency to choose her own fate, especially in light of Elune's own mistake that ultimately consigned the kaldorei dead to the Maw.
"We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead