Question on Slice and Dice theorycraft.

[Brazenbadger]

Hi. So, I'm a soon to be returning player from back in vanilla days who hasn't been able to play since the end of Cata/early Pandaria. Really looking forward to a couple of expansions of content to faff with. Anyway, until I can actually play, I've been nerding out over the info and forums pages trying to decide what I'll main and use my new account free boost on, and since mythic+ looks really exciting to me, and I'm an old combat rogue enthusiast, I'm of course really interested in outlaw. But I had a couple questions on the theorycraft that I've been able to research, which mainly pertain to me really hoping a Slice and Dice can be viable.

Now, from what I've seen, a lot of the people who have been experimenting and reporting low damage with Slice and Dice builds compared to Roll the Bones on both forums and videos don't mention weighting the stats any differently; they seem to be using the same values that the popular Roll the Bones build favors; high crit and versatility, and low mastery and haste a la IcyVeins. I haven't seen anyone on any of the forums go into the fact that doubling auto attack speed will basically double the value of Combat Potency and of mastery proccing Main Gauche, and further Combat Potency proccs off of Main Gauche attacks.

In other words, it gives all of these abilities double the chance to procc, since attack speed is increased 100 percent, and will synergistically increase both auto attack damage and energy regen. This, according to my math should put the value of Mastery well above the others, and subsequently, a high mastery will increase the value of haste synergistically in causing those procs to occur. And it might explain why some of these tests yield such unfavorable results for slice and dice, since it seems to almost reverse the stat preference with mastery first and haste second.

It also seems like it would weight the value of sword master slightly more; with the main energy spender having an increased chance to proc an attack that has a chance to proc main gauche. Though, of course, that's minor compared to the Mastery and Haste difference, it might make a difference compared to other talents on that tier. It might also favor relics that add points to the Artifact ability that gives bonus energy points from Combat potency procs.

Sadly, I can't test any of this out personally for a couple more weeks, so I was curious if anyone has, or has seen anyone who has? Also, this is napkin math, not proper simcraft, so any insights from that would be appreciated! Thanks!

[Nikkaszal]

I can't say for the changes coming to PTR, but sims from a while ago were showing that taking SnD was a DPS loss of 10-15% over not taking a 100 talent at all. Mind you, SnD got buffed a little since then (more attackspeed) so that gap closed a little.

With the bonus to energy regen coming in, I would suspect that SnD will become more DPS than an average/unlucky RTB fight but still far less than having decent/good/great rolls. And that's only for ST - on a fight with adds, the lack of MFD will cripple you.

[Brazenbadger]

Hi! This might seem like a dumb question, but why would lacking MFD effect multitarget more than single target? I think I'm missing something.

(edit)
Oh, wait, you mean because of the energy regen hit from Blade Flurry slowing your combo point generation?

[Valnar]

Hi! This might seem like a dumb question, but why would lacking MFD effect multitarget more than single target? I think I'm missing something.

(edit)
Oh, wait, you mean because of the energy regen hit from Blade Flurry slowing your combo point generation?

MfD resets cooldown on death of target.

[Brazenbadger]

Oh! I get it. Thank you!

Still. I am very curious how the build I have in mind would effect energy regen. It might come out comparative, particularly with the auto damage increase calculated.

There are some variables I don't know precisely that prevent me from doing the math remotely properly. But I've compared my estimates with average Roll the Bones results as best I can. Frankly, unless I'm way WAY off, I'm really not seeing how 10 to 15 percent with no talent is possible with haste and mastery levels, and talent and artifact selections that would suit the build. But, that's why I'd love to hear from someone who's actually done these tests, to hear what the results given those variables were.

[Nikkaszal]

Oh! I get it. Thank you!

Still. I am very curious how the build I have in mind would effect energy regen. It might come out comparative, particularly with the auto damage increase calculated.

There are some variables I don't know precisely that prevent me from doing the math remotely properly. But I've compared my estimates with average Roll the Bones results as best I can. Frankly, unless I'm way WAY off, I'm really not seeing how 10 to 15 percent with no talent is possible with haste and mastery levels, and talent and artifact selections that would suit the build. But, that's why I'd love to hear from someone who's actually done these tests, to hear what the results given those variables were.

Because you're givint up RTB entirely. That means no crit buff, no Broadsides, and most importantly no True Bearing.

That last one is the kicker. True Bearing is what lets you knock your ARush CD down to less than a minute, and your MFD CD to very little as well. It just can't compete on live at all.

In addition, SnD has zero synergy with your cooldowns like RTB does. Increased attackspeed (and on PTR, increased energy regen) means squat when you're energy capped and filling your CP with single GCDs anyway. RTB with SiW and TB turn your CDs into monsters.

[Brazenbadger]

Well, maybe you're right. That's why I'd like to hear about the testing. For example, I remember back in vanilla when EVERYONE just KNEW combat specced rogues didn't do as much damage as assassination specced rogues (back when the talent trees were... well... trees) and said combat was just for soloing. Except... then they noticed that in prolonged fights the reverse was true. I realize RtB frequently does lots of damage. I've been reading warcraft logs like an armchair quarterback follows the sports sections. But until the other build is tested, which i've not seen a single example of, we really don't know how the averages would stack up, and as it is, the simcrafters seem all over the place from what I've read. It was different when simcraft basically meant reading Elitist Jerks. Now everyone seems to be doing it and the results seem less reliable.

[Xanatu]

MFD over the course of an average 7 minute fight will generate ~15-20 free run throughs. That's 10 million damage. Taking SND is a dps LOSS over not having a talent at all. So for SND to be superior, it would not only need to get better than RTB, it'd need to get better than RTB + MFD.

[Brazenbadger]

Yes, I'm just asking if anyone can point me to the actual data that is telling you it's a 10 to 15 percent loss. If everyone is so sure, the info should be available, shouldn't it?

Look. I'm not saying RtB is teh suxxors, but I'm also not looking for paraphrases of how great RtB is. That's not the question. I'm asking for specific data. Apparently everyone is using the build you're describing, to such extent that so far literally no one has info on the alternative. Aren't you even a bit curious about it, even if RtB is better? The specifics of how many run throughs is kind of meaningless with nothing to compare it to, isn't it? How many saber slashes would you have with the increased energy regen? How many procs of Main gauche? Statistically it could well be a couple per second, on the average. That could actually add up to a pretty huge amount of damage. Way more, in fact, than 15 or 20 run throughs. How many of those will proc combat potency?

[SSJones]

Yes, I'm just asking if anyone can point me to the actual data that is telling you it's a 10 to 15 percent loss. If everyone is so sure, the info should be available, shouldn't it?

You can certainly sim it yourself to find out. I doubt it is a 15% loss for anyone anymore, but for me, it's closer to 5% at the moment in sims. 415k for RtB, and 395Kish for SnD, in the gear I have that get both to the highest, using 710-03 simc. My gear is not optimal for RtB, as I have low haste/versatility even when I try.

Yes, SnD scales OK with mastery gear. No, it won't scale particularly well with haste and energy regen, because of capping problems, particularly during Lust, AR, BI procs, and any combination of other things that give you an energy regen boost.

I have no idea why Blizzard thought energy regen was the thing that would make SnD a talent worth considering. It really isn't.

[Brazenbadger]

Happy holiday! Alas, I can't sim or test it myself just now, which was why I was asking. Not for another week or two, as I said in the original post. And haste is sort of more corollary than actually adding directly to SnD. In other words, haste will be further weighted by mastery in the same fashion SnD would, so in the spec it would be more valuable.

But that info is valuable and closer to what I was looking for. I'm still hoping for more specifics. Thanks!

[Valnar]

I have no idea why Blizzard thought energy regen was the thing that would make SnD a talent worth considering. It really isn't.

Blizzard pretty obviously doesn't want Slice and Dice to be be the actual competitive talent. They want it to be a somewhat viable option for people who absolutely detest RtB and don't want to switch off from outlaw. I personally don't get those type of people, but I get why blizzard has SnD.

Its the easy mode choice for outlaw.

[Brazenbadger]

Sometimes what appears obvious can be deceptive or the result of bias. Even with people who cite math. I really won't know without info. I confess, I'm shocked, with the prevalence of simcraft, how few people... actually, no one, and this isn't the only place I'm asking, have properly tested all the variables with an SnD build. As for an easy mode choice, that would be debatable as from my estimations, the build that I think would be optimal would be very fast playing.

[Finear]

I personally don't get those type of people

personally i find RtB clunky as fuck, its just frustrating to deal with, i dont raid mythic so that small % difference is fine (tho i prefer assasination anyway)

[Euphonic]

Sometimes what appears obvious can be deceptive or the result of bias. Even with people who cite math. I really won't know without info. I confess, I'm shocked, with the prevalence of simcraft, how few people... actually, no one, and this isn't the only place I'm asking, have properly tested all the variables with an SnD build. As for an easy mode choice, that would be debatable as from my estimations, the build that I think would be optimal would be very fast playing.

Brazenbadger,

You think a lot like me, I'm tried and true SnD fan. Been playing some iteration of combat since vanilla. However, this expansion is very different.

Unlike in the past, there are no gems. You can't just socket all your gear with Haste or Mastery, like we'd do in the past. Your bound by the stats on the gear that drops, most choices are decided on Item Level alone, unfortunately. This also makes RtB a more attractive choice.

With that being said, it all comes down to how many Run Throughs you can perform per encounter, the main source of Outlaw's DPS. Not auto attack or Sinister Strike damage like in the past. Combo Point generation with RtB, and it's other buffs are how you accomplish this.

I had an equal geared rogue in my guild who was running RtB, while I ran SnD. After being out damaged every encounter in Emerald Nightmare, I forced myself to go RtB, and learn how to use it. It was either that, or continue to be embarrassed.

[Brazenbadger]

Yeah, sorry, it seems I was a bit brash about scoffing at the prevailing wisdom. Someone sent me some info the other day that I didn't get a chance to go over until dragging my butt home, but yeah. When I last played, reforging and such let you stack stats a lot more than you apparently can now. So I don't think you can shift things enough to make my idea work. Alas! I do hope it becomes viable, but as it stands now, I'm afraid I'll have to put my pirate dreams aside and go shammy. I just think RtB would drive me nuts, at least on my main.

Thanks everyone! I appreciate all the info and input!

[Brightamethyst]

personally i find RtB clunky as fuck, its just frustrating to deal with

Same. Personally I think RtB is an incredibly annoying mechanic. To me that sheer amount of random is far more frustrating than fun. I'd ditch it in a heartbeat if it was at all viable.

[Yoshimiko]

Yes, I'm just asking if anyone can point me to the actual data that is telling you it's a 10 to 15 percent loss. If everyone is so sure, the info should be available, shouldn't it?

Look. I'm not saying RtB is teh suxxors, but I'm also not looking for paraphrases of how great RtB is. That's not the question. I'm asking for specific data. Apparently everyone is using the build you're describing, to such extent that so far literally no one has info on the alternative. Aren't you even a bit curious about it, even if RtB is better? The specifics of how many run throughs is kind of meaningless with nothing to compare it to, isn't it? How many saber slashes would you have with the increased energy regen? How many procs of Main gauche? Statistically it could well be a couple per second, on the average. That could actually add up to a pretty huge amount of damage. Way more, in fact, than 15 or 20 run throughs. How many of those will proc combat potency?

"865" set on AMR.
377371 DPS No 110 talent : http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/simula...f32ba37865622b
371609 DPS Slice and Dice : http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/simula...1fb3e0ef8badd9

It's about a 1.6% damage difference.

381476 DPS, 396498 DPS
Other two options with MFD winning out.

Also, with some napkin math, assuming you can manage to not GCD cap, I've got the PTR +15% energy gen at ~385k DPS. As your mastery reaches higher, SnD starts to win out.

Needs better simming, though. Won't know 'til sims are updated unless someone feels like spending more time on this.

[Xanatu]

"865" set on AMR.
377371 DPS No 110 talent : http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/simula...f32ba37865622b
371609 DPS Slice and Dice : http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/simula...1fb3e0ef8badd9

It's about a 1.6% damage difference.

381476 DPS, 396498 DPS
Other two options with MFD winning out.

Also, with some napkin math, assuming you can manage to not GCD cap, I've got the PTR +15% energy gen at ~385k DPS. As your mastery reaches higher, SnD starts to win out.

Needs better simming, though. Won't know 'til sims are updated unless someone feels like spending more time on this.

The ilvl of sims needs to be upped dramatically. Competitive players are all going to be 890 before we ever get our hands on tier pieces. 865 is basically your average normal raiding hero at this point who does a few m+ a week.

I think if SND ever got to a level of being competitive (which I hardly see being possible due to sharing with MFD) I just think they'd nerf it back down.

[Parhelion]

I agree that the question of SnD vs RtB is not only between these two talents, but also the loss of Marked for Death, which is a great on single target fights (especially with True Bearing up) and fantastic on multi-target ones.