Is WoW Light on RPG Elements?

[Edward Wu]

Obviously the defining characteristic of the RPG genre is choice, and meaningful choice at that (hopefully). They've made an effort in that department with the covenants, and it remains to be seen what happens with that system.

But do you think the game in general lacks a lot of RPG flavor? Do you think WoW is just an action-adventure game with RPG window-dressing? Are you satisfied with the itemization of the game or do you think it has room to be deeper and more thought-provoking? Do you think a game like WoW can even allow that?

[Schattenlied]

Yes, and covenants aren't going to change jack.

[Thelxi]

It's hard to say at this point having played the game for so many years, but I'll say that Legion with the class halls, artifacts and other features did considerably turn up the RPG element of the game, while BfA kinda dropped it again to normal levels.

[Blackmist]

I honestly can't see how it would be any different to the previous choices in WoW.

1. Aldor or Scryer in TBC. Pick the one that Elitist Jerks said was best for your class.

2. Oracles or Frenzyheart in WotLK. Pick whether you want a mount and pets or a toy. Swap when you've got the stuff you want.

3. Pick a covenant in SL. Forgive me for being Mr Pessimistic, but I'm going to go out on a limb and say we'll pick whatever Icy Veins tells us is best for our class.

And that's the problem. Either it's not important and nobody cares about it, or it's important enough that somebody else will tell you which to pick.

[Edward Wu]

I honestly can't see how it would be any different to the previous choices in WoW.

1. Aldor or Scryer in TBC. Pick the one that Elitist Jerks said was best for your class.

2. Oracles or Frenzyheart in WotLK. Pick whether you want a mount and pets or a toy. Swap when you've got the stuff you want.

3. Pick a covenant in SL. Forgive me for being Mr Pessimistic, but I'm going to go out on a limb and say we'll pick whatever Icy Veins tells us is best for our class.

And that's the problem. Either it's not important and nobody cares about it, or it's important enough that somebody else will tell you which to pick.

Yep, and I touched on this with my last question.

Maybe multiplayer games and competitive natures that come with them simply don't allow for meaningful choices, because there's an absolute requirement for a best choice. We know psychology that players choose the path of least resistance, and maybe good RPG games simply make sure there's no easily discovered correct path.

People like Preach want simming gone because it destroys choice, but Ion knows it can never really go away no matter how you change itemization.

[Garymorilix]

Obviously the defining characteristic of the RPG genre is choice, and meaningful choice at that (hopefully). They've made an effort in that department with the covenants, and it remains to be seen what happens with that system.

But do you think the game in general lacks a lot of RPG flavor? Do you think WoW is just an action-adventure game with RPG window-dressing? Are you satisfied with the itemization of the game or do you think it has room to be deeper and more thought-provoking? Do you think a game like WoW can even allow that?

You did not make an actual argument here.
What is an RGP element? Define what it is in your mind and then we can have an argument.

You were never able to make "meaningful" choices in WoW, not even in Classic. This is a fairy-tale with rainbow nostalgia vomit all over it.
There was always a cookie-cutter build that everyone used no matter for talent/prof/gear or whatever. Then there were the rest of the players who no-one cared about.

You could never have a say in the story or narrative in the game like it's Mass Effect or whatever offline RPG you wanna compare this to.

So again, define what is an RPG element. Then people will easily tell you why it wouldn't fit in an MMO or would be utterly pointless for the sake of existing.

[Aucald]

Depends on how you define "RPG elements," and whether you're referring to game systems specifically, or in the overall/abstract sense. I'd say in the game system context WoW is a bit light on RPG elements as we commonly view them - the statistics are there, but they been largely chopped, lowered, and simplified for playability (occasionally to the detriment of RPG choice). WoW's big issue concerning RPG game system is one of gradient - the control knobs are not finely tuned or discrete enough in many cases, and thus you often come away feeling you don't have the ability to really dial in your playstyle as opposed to choosing from a curated menu of templates.

At the overall or abstract level WoW is fine, and the various presentations and customization make for a delightful hands-on RP experience for most people. RPG play in WoW is definitely at the afterthought level, though; a completely opt-in type of experience that may not be for everyone. This is an element that has been improving with more and more story integration as well as the upcoming enhanced customization in Shadowlands.

[A Chozo]

Obviously the defining characteristic of the RPG genre is choice, and meaningful choice at that (hopefully).

No, the defining characteristic of the RPG genre is a focus Role-playing.

You could play as a character with all it's choices set and it would still be a RPG.

[gpunk]

There are elements of an RPG that an MMO naturally cannot indulge in because a persistent shared player world precludes it. And in a game where performance is important to enjoying or even seeing the content, the pressure to make the "right choice" means most choices are illusory at best outside of cosmetics and window-dressing.

There are things I personally feel are more "RPG-oriented" that WoW has moved away from over the years, but whether nixing them was good or bad is also a matter of personal preference. I'd say classic's endgame meta, where most of your performance is from world buffs, itemization choices, raid planning, and preparation than it is from personal player skill/rotational aptitude or reflexes, is far more "RPG-oriented" than retail's endgame, but whether that's a positive or not is up to you.

[Maljinwo]

There will always be a talent, covenant or corruption that scrapes that 1% more of damage or healing. And people will swear by it and you'll be playing "wrong" if you want to play something your way

[exochaft]

No, the defining characteristic of the RPG genre is a focus Role-playing.

You could play as a character with all it's choices set and it would still be a RPG.

I'd have to disagree, as there has to at least be the illusion of choice... and there's almost no illusion of choice in WoW. The draw of the RPG is that the players feel like they can play characters with their choices making a difference or making the character their own, even if many things are rigged to converge in one direction behind the scenes. The current environment in WoW is extremely far removed from any choices mattering or allowing room for choices that matter, given how the content is designed and tuned.

About the only RPG-esque aspect of WoW right now is the transmog system, as it's about the only system in the game that's flexible and allows players to define their 'role' in a visual aspect. Everything else is pretty rigid and always has a 'right' answer that's almost always best. While the covenants coming up could be a step in the right direction, the problem is that the rest of the game upon which that system is added makes min/maxing take precedent over any RPG choice if you want to be able to play the game 'correctly' according to design intent.

[Onikaroshi]

I honestly can't see how it would be any different to the previous choices in WoW.

1. Aldor or Scryer in TBC. Pick the one that Elitist Jerks said was best for your class.

2. Oracles or Frenzyheart in WotLK. Pick whether you want a mount and pets or a toy. Swap when you've got the stuff you want.

3. Pick a covenant in SL. Forgive me for being Mr Pessimistic, but I'm going to go out on a limb and say we'll pick whatever Icy Veins tells us is best for our class.

And that's the problem. Either it's not important and nobody cares about it, or it's important enough that somebody else will tell you which to pick.

I mean, personally, I'm going to pick whatever I find most fun, but yea, a lot of min-maxers will just go with whatever sims best, even if it's not fun.

[Gorsameth]

Obviously the defining characteristic of the RPG genre is choice, and meaningful choice at that (hopefully). They've made an effort in that department with the covenants, and it remains to be seen what happens with that system.

But do you think the game in general lacks a lot of RPG flavor? Do you think WoW is just an action-adventure game with RPG window-dressing? Are you satisfied with the itemization of the game or do you think it has room to be deeper and more thought-provoking? Do you think a game like WoW can even allow that?

Better question.
Has wow ever NOT been light on RPG elements?

[Saltysquidoon]

Maybe multiplayer games and competitive natures that come with them simply don't allow for meaningful choices, because there's an absolute requirement for a best choice. We know psychology that players choose the path of least resistance, and maybe good RPG games simply make sure there's no easily discovered correct path.

Speaking to the bolded part of your statement. Yes, just yes. The trinity exists because multiplayer PnP rpgs sanded classes down into those roles for the sake of efficiency not the devs. Same with cookie-cutter builds. Same with Sims. If it's multiplayer or competitive, players will math the 'fun' out of a game.

That said that doesn't mean you shouldn't offer choice just because there is a best option.
For example, when I'm playing on my DH alt I use fel blade outside of m+ because it's more fun to have a proc to react to, the game would be diminished if demonic consumption was the only option.

However, trying to make choices 'meaningful' by forcing a player to cut off a leg in a certain piece of content is a pointless quixotic attempt to artificially circumvent what I already explained above and has no place in a multiplayer game.

[Venziir]

"RPG Elements" - this here means absolutely nothing. There are so many games out there, which are all labeled "RPG", despite having nothing in common, and by just reading the replies here, it's clear that everyone has their own idea of what an RPG game actually is.

[Aresk]

I'd have to disagree, as there has to at least be the illusion of choice... and there's almost no illusion of choice in WoW. The draw of the RPG is that the players feel like they can play characters with their choices making a difference or making the character their own, even if many things are rigged to converge in one direction behind the scenes. The current environment in WoW is extremely far removed from any choices mattering or allowing room for choices that matter, given how the content is designed and tuned.

About the only RPG-esque aspect of WoW right now is the transmog system, as it's about the only system in the game that's flexible and allows players to define their 'role' in a visual aspect. Everything else is pretty rigid and always has a 'right' answer that's almost always best. While the covenants coming up could be a step in the right direction, the problem is that the rest of the game upon which that system is added makes min/maxing take precedent over any RPG choice if you want to be able to play the game 'correctly' according to design intent.

I'm going to have to disagree with you here. In Final Fantasy, for instance, your choice is what classes to play, what spells to learn, what items to equip, what actions to do in combat, and whether to do the rat tail quest for the dragon king. Pretty much everything else plot wise is laid out before you. WoW has all of those choices. The RPG has come a long way in the almost thirty-three years since FF's release, and a lot of games add choice and multiple enemies (Chrono Trigger is still my favorite in that department). But you do not have to have in-depth choices to be an RPG. To be competitive in today's market, you probably should, but classic RPGs are still classic, worth playing, and do not require elaborate plot lines affected by choices. I'd argue that providing choice poorly is worse for an RPG than having no choice at all.

[Justpassing]

Play ESO when you need a quick RPG fix. That's what I do.

[Onikaroshi]

"RPG Elements" - this here means absolutely nothing. There are so many games out there, which are all labeled "RPG", despite having nothing in common, and by just reading the replies here, it's clear that everyone has their own idea of what an RPG game actually is.

I'd say one common thing that RPGs should have is leveling, but the first RPG didn't.

[Niter]

Well, there are some elements which are important in an RPG: choosing the race, gender, looks and the gear that brings out the best concept you've envisioned for that character (transmog, mounts, pets). You can have a backstory if you so choose, and that is a crucial aspect that most people overlook (and perhaps one of the reasons WoW hasn't been what it once was is that characters, the lore and locations matter less nd less, so most things story-wise feel empty).

When it comes to choice within the story and the game world, then I must say that WoW was never stellar to begin with, but at least there used to be some choice: you could farm rep for specific mounts, there were factions you could subscribe to (Aldor vs Scriers, the WotLK factions also had a different feel to them, Pandaria allowed for a few things) but it doesn't seem it has progressed at all. In Legion the Order Halls were great to provide that extra flavour, and were a welcome addition. Now we are unlikely to get anything like that.

Up to WoTLK there were more options in terms of sub-stats, gems and enchants. Now it is not as deep. Talents have never been that big of a deal since the good ones were obvious and the viable ones were known. But I can't help it but feel that the latest talent system is worse due to there being fewer choices, lots of talents that mean nothing, add little to no flavour or, worse yet, add back to the class/spec abilities that it used to have, so you must buy with talent points abilities that you once had.

It would be a good idea to have things like some monster having stronger armour, so bleeds and poisons would fit best to deal damage; then, another boss who's got higher armour but is less susceptible to bleeds and poisons, so armour penetration would be better; another kind that had no armour, so big hits would be more damaging the bypassing armour or applying DoTs... in the same vein, there could be some monster which took a bit more damage from some elements, making an Arcane Mage deal, say 5% more damage in that particular encounter. This way characters could be optimised to deal with different types of enemies. The same thing applies to tanking, with some tanking being preferable in certain fights... Right now, when that happens, it's mostly due to imbalances than Blizzard actually making this decision.

The big issue seems to be that Blizzard cannot seem to play the 'some can do better than others at times, and worse at other instances' without completely borking a sub-stat or trying to come up with a solution in which enemies never change and all changes are done to the characters.

Choice, gameplay-wise, isn't there because it is not required, it is an afterthought at best.

[Venziir]

I'd say one common thing that RPGs should have is leveling, but the first RPG didn't.

What about all the RPG's that don't?

- - - Updated - - -

Well, there are some elements which are important in an RPG: choosing the race, gender, looks and the gear that brings out the best concept you've envisioned for that character (transmog, mounts, pets). You can have a backstory if you so choose, and that is a crucial aspect that most people overlook (and perhaps one of the reasons WoW hasn't been what it once was is that characters, the lore and locations matter less nd less, so most things story-wise feel empty).

When it comes to choice within the story and the game world, then I must say that WoW was never stellar to begin with, but at least there used to be some choice: you could farm rep for specific mounts, there were factions you could subscribe to (Aldor vs Scriers, the WotLK factions also had a different feel to them, Pandaria allowed for a few things) but it doesn't seem it has progressed at all. In Legion the Order Halls were great to provide that extra flavour, and were a welcome addition. Now we are unlikely to get anything like that.

Up to WoTLK there were more options in terms of sub-stats, gems and enchants. Now it is not as deep. Talents have never been that big of a deal since the good ones were obvious and the viable ones were known. But I can't help it but feel that the latest talent system is worse due to there being fewer choices, lots of talents that mean nothing, add little to no flavour or, worse yet, add back to the class/spec abilities that it used to have, so you must buy with talent points abilities that you once had.

It would be a good idea to have things like some monster having stronger armour, so bleeds and poisons would fit best to deal damage; then, another boss who's got higher armour but is less susceptible to bleeds and poisons, so armour penetration would be better; another kind that had no armour, so big hits would be more damaging the bypassing armour or applying DoTs... in the same vein, there could be some monster which took a bit more damage from some elements, making an Arcane Mage deal, say 5% more damage in that particular encounter. This way characters could be optimised to deal with different types of enemies. The same thing applies to tanking, with some tanking being preferable in certain fights... Right now, when that happens, it's mostly due to imbalances than Blizzard actually making this decision.

The big issue seems to be that Blizzard cannot seem to play the 'some can do better than others at times, and worse at other instances' without completely borking a sub-stat or trying to come up with a solution in which enemies never change and all changes are done to the characters.

Choice, gameplay-wise, isn't there because it is not required, it is an afterthought at best.

And yet, a lot of RPG's have you play as a set hero with a set race, gender and story.