My experience with 2 alts, aka Why people don't tank

[baelon]

110K seems like a lot of health for 84. Why so much? Why not more avoidance? If you had 25% avoidance (dodge/parry), what was your mitigation (block/armor)? Or did you lump those two in together?

Also, it's just the nature of the tanking role that you have to be properly geared to do your role. Same applies to healers. Such is life.

My health total is high because unlike other 84s I'm gemmed and enchanted. While I follow the warrior stickies and go for avoidance / mitigation, there is still a stam bonus for doing this, as some hybrid gems with stam are used, as well as a few stam enchants. I also have gotten a leaden despair, but no avoidance/mitigation trinkets.

I'm also a miner.

Further, I'm gemmed and enchanted because unlike a dps, I can't simply coast along without making the effort, perhaps wearing greens well into heroics. And since you're not guaranteed drops in a timely fashion (rather, you're virtually guaranteed not to get them) it's a good idea to buy stuff & enchant what you have as you go. Unlike for dps, for tanks it -does- matter.

If it's "just the nature of the tanking role" and it's causing 45 minute queues, isn't it time to question the nature of the tanking role?

[eternalwhitemoon]

If it's "just the nature of the tanking role" and it's causing 45 minute queues, isn't it time to question the nature of the tanking role?

45 minute queues are being caused by:

1) People simply not liking tanking.
I have plenty of perfectly good friends who just find so much enjoyment in healing or DPSing, and just don't get into tanking.
2) Other people in the group being d-bags.
See my earlier example of the a-hole rogue. No one likes being blamed for a wipe they didn't cause and couldn't avoid.
3) People not willing to take on responsibility in a game.
I have a perfectly competent friend who just doesn't want to tank, simply because it's a lot of responsibility to do it and do it correctly. The success or failure of the group depends on you. Some people do this game just for fun and don't want the pressure.

None of these can be solved by changing how tanking works. What are you expecting?

[Kraven Moorehead]

L2 Tank.
L2 CC.
Thank you.

[Deleted]

Have you guys seen what level 77 in full cata greens are capable of? WAAAAAAAAAY overgeared for wrath hcs imo.


Seriously though. Wait until you get to 85 on mage, your stats will drop and you'll be less of a dps then than you are now.

As for your tank, I suggest you play mage through some dungeons and learn what to CC and where. Yes it's normal, but they can still roflstomp you because that's what blizzard wants.

[Pr0ev0lution]

If it's "just the nature of the tanking role" and it's causing 45 minute queues, isn't it time to question the nature of the tanking role?

not really there are less tanks and healers for that case causing these queues not only because the skill cap for those roles is alot higher (you can get away with been bad dps but the same can't be said for tanking or healing) which is fine since there are different skill caps between the different dps classes.

but also because there is less need for tanks the higher up in content you go for example 5 mans = 1 tank, 1 healer, 3 dps, 10 mans = 2 tanks (odd encounters requires 3), 2-3 healers, 6-5 dps, 25 man = 2-3 tanks, 5-7 healers, 15+ dps

[Abandon]

45 minute queues are being caused by:

1) People simply not liking tanking.
I have plenty of perfectly good friends who just find so much enjoyment in healing or DPSing, and just don't get into tanking.
2) Other people in the group being d-bags.
See my earlier example of the a-hole rogue. No one likes being blamed for a wipe they didn't cause and couldn't avoid.
3) People not willing to take on responsibility in a game.
I have a perfectly competent friend who just doesn't want to tank, simply because it's a lot of responsibility to do it and do it correctly. The success or failure of the group depends on you. Some people do this game just for fun and don't want the pressure.

None of these can be solved by changing how tanking works. What are you expecting?

This is an excellent and very clear description on why the current queue times are in the situation they currently are. Most of these points also apply to Healing as well.

[Uroboros]

What I honestly get out of this is that you are not good and so something MUST be wrong cause you are SUPER GOOD. There is nothing wrong with dungeons, I love them personally. Tanking has become more fun imo. I actually have a chance to die. I think you need to look deeper at what you or your group are doing wrong. Are interrupts being used? Is proper communication there? The design is to be harder. It isn't Blizzard's fault you can't do dungeons as a tank.

[baelon]

45 minute queues are being caused by:

1) People simply not liking tanking.
I have plenty of perfectly good friends who just find so much enjoyment in healing or DPSing, and just don't get into tanking.
2) Other people in the group being d-bags.
See my earlier example of the a-hole rogue. No one likes being blamed for a wipe they didn't cause and couldn't avoid.
3) People not willing to take on responsibility in a game.
I have a perfectly competent friend who just doesn't want to tank, simply because it's a lot of responsibility to do it and do it correctly. The success or failure of the group depends on you. Some people do this game just for fun and don't want the pressure.

None of these can be solved by changing how tanking works. What are you expecting?

If people don't want to tank, why does every single plate dps in my groups roll on tank gear (and usually win, damn them)? Your theory. It has a hole in it.

[Abandon]

If people don't want to tank, why does every single plate dps in my groups roll on tank gear (and usually win, damn them)? Your theory. It has a hole in it.

Considering I have seen a Shaman needing on tanking trinkets, I would say it's because people are generally greedy and selfish. Either that or because they think they might want to try out tanking at some point and don't mind taking gear from people who it is a direct upgrade for.

[eternalwhitemoon]

If people don't want to tank, why does every single plate dps in my groups roll on tank gear (and usually win, damn them)? Your theory. It has a hole in it.

Your theory is the one with the hole. There would not be 45 minute queues if there were more tanks in the queue (ie, people wanting to tank).

You're saying your anecdotal evidence is the way it has to be for everyone on every server? I sure as hell don't Need on tanking gear, even though as a paladin I'm perfectly capable of rolling on them if I wanted.

a) You're exceptionally unlucky. Don't worry, I used to get Spirit trinkets ninjaed by warlocks; I know how you feel.

b) Abandon is correct. There's nothing stopping someone from rolling Need on whatever the system allows. Who said they were actually going to USE that gear?

[baelon]

Your theory, it also has a hole. There would not be 45 minute queues if there were more tanks in the queue (ie, people wanting to tank).

a) You're exceptionally unlucky. Don't worry, I used to get Spirit trinkets ninjaed by warlocks; I know how you feel.

b) Abandon is correct. There's nothing stopping someone from rolling Need on whatever the system allows. Who said they were actually going to USE that gear?

I think a lot feel trapped. They can't tank because they don't have the gear, so they queue as dps and roll on the gear. I have the luxury of having a ton of gold since I'm not an idiot, and can afford to have PL'd smithing to 525, buy gear, enchant & gem it, etc. But most do not.

[eternalwhitemoon]

I think a lot feel trapped. They can't tank because they don't have the gear, so they queue as dps and roll on the gear. I have the luxury of having a ton of gold since I'm not an idiot, and can afford to have PL'd smithing to 525, buy gear, enchant & gem it, etc. But most do not.

I think Wrath got people into the habit of ignoring normal-mode dungeons. That's what they're there for: to get you the gear and experience for Heroic dungeons. If you're decked in all normal dungeon gear, your gear should be good enough for most of the heroics.

I don't feel that your argument is particularly valid given the fact that the resource is there, people just have to be smart and actually use it.

Edit: I felt compelled to clarify that while the OP is talking about normal modes, the fact that you pointed out 45-minute queue times (which are consistent with current Heroic dungeon queue times for pure DPS) and mentioned a freshly dinged DPS going into Heroics are what caused me to segue to this point.

[cubby]

Your claim is that with a similar level of skill, gear, effort and gold expenditure for glyphs / gems / enchants, a dps and a tank are equally effective?

Read the whole post, and yours twice, and with all due respect, and not flaming at all, I promise, it's got to be something you're doing wrong. I'm not trying to criticize you at all, and I mean no insult, but if you are having trouble tanking normal modes at lvl 84 with all of your gear fully gemmed/enchanted/glyphed - something is wrong on your side.

I have a lvl 83 tank (paladin) and I spend absolutely no effort on gemming or enchanting his gear (what I mean to say is that I do gem the gear that has slots, but I don't enchant, have no glyphs what-so-ever, and really haven't kept up on tanking methods). I roll through mobs without cc and the healer usually has no problems keeping me up. And I'm not trying to brag - I'm just relaying my experience.

Now, if you're saying this is an issue with Warrior tanks only, then I can't offer any assistance. But if you're claim is that zero effort is required for dps to meet normal mode expectations, but tanks have to go out of their way to even come close to coping, then I have to disagree. I've tanked everything I can queue for at least twice.

If I've missed something that you've said, please clarify. I'll watch this thread.

[Alta87]

I'm guessing you pulled it wrong, as a 85 tank, with most of my gear coming from normal 10 man raids. Even now, in HoO.. the packs with the big add? I use CC.

(first pack as you get in) The big dude does great damage and fires fireballs on a 1-2 second cast. The small one in the middle does dangerous aoe channeling. and one (atleast) of the others is ranged. It's a tricky pull, best bet? CC as many as you can of the small ones and burn the big one.

[DomBomb1]

I appreciate the helpful hints guys, but my 85 druid is a tank & has been since TBC. I'm well aware of how to tank, how to use CC, how to position mobs properly, etc. This is a design flaw, not user error.

PS - When my mage gets those inevitable fights where hot streak refuses to proc I still pull around 9k. It'll be interesting to see what it is once I'm actually gemmed, enchanted and reforged, as well as having proper stats to begin with (lots of my gear now has mastery... lol). Can it about crit rating inflating pre-85 numbers, it just isn't true.

So you died on the first pull of HoO, when 3 of the 4 mobs were CCed, the mob you were tanking was being interrupted, purged, spell reflected and dragged out of circles, etc? I HIGHLY doubt this.

[icanwait]

First cata dungeon I tanked was stonecore and I think I was 83. Had 68k health buffed iirc (was selling pretty much every quest reward) which the healer remarked on. Was a really good run and the healer had no trouble from what I could tell (I spam WoG and use cd's a lot).
Mobs deal a lot of dmg in HoO normal so CC is needed.

My advice to you is stop checking AH for upgrades and level to 85 in Uldum or TH (real nice shield from the first quest chain there) whilst collecting upgrades from quests.

[baelon]

I think Wrath got people into the habit of ignoring normal-mode dungeons. That's what they're there for: to get you the gear and experience for Heroic dungeons. If you're decked in all normal dungeon gear, your gear should be good enough for most of the heroics.

I don't feel that your argument is particularly valid given the fact that the resource is there, people just have to be smart and actually use it.

Edit: I felt compelled to clarify that while the OP is talking about normal modes, the fact that you pointed out 45-minute queue times (which are consistent with current Heroic dungeon queue times for pure DPS) and mentioned a freshly dinged DPS going into Heroics are what caused me to segue to this point.

Take it from my 83 mage, lower level queues aren't much shorter. Usually in the 30-35 minute range at 83. And I'm not far from 85 so I'm just looking ahead a bit.

[Ezekiel]

I have leveled a Prot paladin and a Blood DK to 85 (As well as a feral druid, but it's just a kitteh mostly) and my Prot warrior is half a bar from 85 right now. I've just finished tanking all three of these instances you are talking about. The only issues we encountered were clear user issues. My prot warrior is in partial DPS gear, not enchanted, and has no gear with gem slots right now. My professions (Primarily) are both at skill level 1.

I went through what you are on my Paladin, as it was my first tank to level. I had to learn which mobs to CC, which mobs to burn down, and which ones to interrupt. Like with anything, the more you do it, the easier it is. If your main is a tank, it should be easier at this point, but if it's not then...well, User error somehow. Somewhere. The key isn't coming to the forums to complain about over-tuned dungeons, but instead locating that user error and correcting it.

And if my mage had the gear it has now at 80, I'd be doing 40k+ without even thinking...but due to the way things scale, I do ~10k. When you hit both 84 and 85 this is the MOST apparent out of any cata levels, as your stats scale DOWN and mana cost goes UP. It was painful on my healer, so very painful, when my heals started costing more...but I adapted, I became more conservative and I've got it raid ready now. S'just the way it goes

[SofreshnsoClean]

That big guy can be mean, but have someone remove his buff and he turns into a kitten pretty much. Mages can spellsteal it ftw.

[baelon]

Read the whole post, and yours twice, and with all due respect, and not flaming at all, I promise, it's got to be something you're doing wrong. I'm not trying to criticize you at all, and I mean no insult, but if you are having trouble tanking normal modes at lvl 84 with all of your gear fully gemmed/enchanted/glyphed - something is wrong on your side.

I have a lvl 83 tank (paladin) and I spend absolutely no effort on gemming or enchanting his gear (what I mean to say is that I do gem the gear that has slots, but I don't enchant, have no glyphs what-so-ever, and really haven't kept up on tanking methods). I roll through mobs without cc and the healer usually has no problems keeping me up. And I'm not trying to brag - I'm just relaying my experience.

Now, if you're saying this is an issue with Warrior tanks only, then I can't offer any assistance. But if you're claim is that zero effort is required for dps to meet normal mode expectations, but tanks have to go out of their way to even come close to coping, then I have to disagree. I've tanked everything I can queue for at least twice.

If I've missed something that you've said, please clarify. I'll watch this thread.

What you missed is that I've tanked since BC and am well aware of what I'm doing, and of the mechanics of heroics.

It isn't a warrior issue, though it may be an 85 normal-mode issue. Since they're developed for 85s an 84 tank falls a bit short. If you don't worry about gems, enchants, etc. then run grim batol or halls of orig when you ding 84, you'll see what I mean. It was markedly more demanding of my gear than the dungeons I'd been doing up till then (stonecore, vortex).

Further, my point really isn't that it's "undoable". It isn't. My point is that it requires a lot of a tank, while only requiring a pulse from a dps (and even that is not certain), and I don't feel this discrepancy is fair to tanks, and do feel that it's part of the reason for the tank shortage.