Anyone else think that Totem should not be considered as spells?

[Deleted]

another scenario came up on my head, you play ele against war, you get smashed, casting hex, silenced, can't drop earthbind = gg.
Hahahah it gets better every minute! xD

[Kralljin]

another scenario came up on my head, you play ele against war, you get smashed, casting hex, silenced, can't drop earthbind = gg.
Hahahah it gets better every minute! xD

Gag Order get's removed with the same patch the Totem nerf goes live.

So, this Scenario won't happen.

But i'll draw you another one:

Blanket Silence with Spell Lock from a Destro Lock, he casts Chaos Bolt and you can only watch and hopefully be near a pillar to LoS.

[woopytywoop]

another scenario came up on my head, you play ele against war, you get smashed, casting hex, silenced, can't drop earthbind = gg.
Hahahah it gets better every minute! xD

I already have nightmares over rogues opening with garrote that line it up with CloS after the silence is over.

At least i could drop earthbind now and force their CloS or ShS early so I could TS them away or keep them snared while GW'ing to make distance

well at least they are crap now... but they'll be buffed in 5.1 and I think we'll be on top of their "free kill" list in bg's :X

[shell]

Gag Order get's removed with the same patch the Totem nerf goes live.

So, this Scenario won't happen.

But i'll draw you another one:

Blanket Silence with Spell Lock from a Destro Lock, he casts Chaos Bolt and you can only watch and hopefully be near a pillar to LoS.

I wish that were entirely true. Unfortunately since totems are now considered spells, even getting interrupted while casting a nature spell will lock you out of using most of your totems. Enhancement doesn't have to worry about that as much but the casters do. I hope everyone's pro at juking otherwise you're up the proverbial creek. If you're not and you intend to keep playing ele, I'd suggest you toss that unleashed lightning glyph out the window.

[Kralljin]

Great Comment from Gc on this issue on Twitter:

@Lancestrongbad "Do players really silence / interrupt Enhance often? Elemental... maybe."

So, how am i supposed to believe that this person knows what he's doing?

It's like asking Gc: Is an Elemental Shaman often a target of Interrupt and Silence Spells?

And his reply would be: ...maybe

just...no.

[Netherspark]

Not being able to cast spells is the point of being silenced. Totems haven't been spells since WotLK*, as per design. Meaning totems have been balanced around the notion of having 5 HP, usable while silenced, and restricting you to one totem per element, because they are not spells.

Don't be so damn literal. The point of being silenced is that it prevents you from taking actions. How would you like it if a Priest could cast shields and fear while being silenced? If a Druid could cast roots and cyclone when silenced? If a Warlock could use Dark Bargain?

Totems aren't simple buff bots any more. Back then it wouldn't really matter too much if you could place a Strength of the Earth totem when silenced, but now totems in general are much more powerful. It just is not fair that a Shaman can continue acting after being silenced when other classes are utterly crippled by it.

[Kralljin]

Don't be so damn literal. The point of being silenced is that it prevents you from taking actions. How would you like it if a Priest could cast shields and fear while being silenced? If a Druid could cast roots and cyclone when silenced? If a Warlock could use Dark Bargain?

Totems aren't simple buff bots any more. Back then it wouldn't really matter too much if you could place a Strength of the Earth totem when silenced, but now totems in general are much more powerful. It just is not fair that a Shaman can continue acting after being silenced when other classes are utterly crippled by it.

Other Classes have more than 1 defense CD, it's not like that Elemental and Enhance had issues with their defense, being less vulnerable against a single CC school helped a bit on that.

Personally i'm against that Druid can make themself immune against Polymorph and hex all the time at their will, yet this mechanic persists since Classic.

[Endus]

Don't be so damn literal. The point of being silenced is that it prevents you from taking actions. How would you like it if a Priest could cast shields and fear while being silenced? If a Druid could cast roots and cyclone when silenced? If a Warlock could use Dark Bargain?

Totems aren't simple buff bots any more. Back then it wouldn't really matter too much if you could place a Strength of the Earth totem when silenced, but now totems in general are much more powerful. It just is not fair that a Shaman can continue acting after being silenced when other classes are utterly crippled by it.

That's not really a fair comparison. Silence only affects SOME abilities. Specifically; spells. One of the Shaman class features has, for years, been that even while Silenced, we have access to some of our tools, which are classed as Physical abilities.

That is now being removed.

It's essentially akin to saying "Okay, all Death Knight abilities based on runes are now classed as "spells" and vulnerable to lockouts/silences". You can make an argument as to why it would apply, but it's a major shift for the class, and it affects two specs which were not performing strongly even BEFORE the change.

If they had announced some compensation for Ele and possibly Enh at the same time, this would have been an easier pill to swallow. The lack of it makes it clear they were only considering Resto, since you can't argue that "totems are too powerful" when Elemental is doing poorly in PvP as it is.

Great Comment from Gc on this issue on Twitter:

@Lancestrongbad "Do players really silence / interrupt Enhance often? Elemental... maybe."

So, how am i supposed to believe that this person knows what he's doing?

It's like asking Gc: Is an Elemental Shaman often a target of Interrupt and Silence Spells?

And his reply would be: ...maybe

just...no.

Surprise; the class development team is working on 33 different specs across both PvE and PvP. Sometimes, changes made for one spec have consequences they didn't foresee. You're attacking Ghostcrawler for recognizing there's an issue with Elemental, as a side effect of this change.

They're going to overlook things now and then. That's what community feedback is for. The idea that the development team should always only ever make the absolute perfect change that satisfies everyone in the community? That's a ridiculous impossible pipe dream. It cannot happen, and attacking them for failing to achieve it serves no purpose.

[shell]

Don't be so damn literal. The point of being silenced is that it prevents you from taking actions. How would you like it if a Priest could cast shields and fear while being silenced? If a Druid could cast roots and cyclone when silenced? If a Warlock could use Dark Bargain?

Totems aren't simple buff bots any more. Back then it wouldn't really matter too much if you could place a Strength of the Earth totem when silenced, but now totems in general are much more powerful. It just is not fair that a Shaman can continue acting after being silenced when other classes are utterly crippled by it.

Look, I understand where you're coming from but it's not quite as black-or-white as you're making it out to be.

Most classes have some kind of cc protection. Whether it's Disc being able to Pain Supression while stunned, Shadow able to disperse while silenced, stunned, or feared, Druids able to barksin while feared, stunned, incapacitated...etc.,etc,etc. Even Enhancement has Shamanistic rage while stunned. For the classes that don't have those abilities, they have something that prevents them from being silenced/interrupted for a short time. Whether its devotion aura, or unending resolve, or glyphed inner focus, or the 4 piece bonus for resto shamans...etc,etc,etc.

The thing is Elemental shamans have none of that. And the response to that seems to generally be "well your spec isn't viable anyways, so too bad."

There's actually a lot of people who'd be fine with the change IF we were compensated.

[Aoyi]

I don't agree with this change as totems are really not spells. They're simply being called that now for PVP reasons. If this change does go through in the live client, I'm hoping that at least it really goes through and not just for PVP purposes. I'd like to be able to drop totems while soloing TK for the mount run. If my totems are now classified as spells to make me weaker in PVP, but also retain the pet/guardian tag for MC mechanics in soloing content, then that's just not fair at all.

[Deleted]

I find it hilarious when I go to US PTR forums or AJ and see the biggest thread about this subject:

Shamans: We know Resto is OP, but this is uncalled for!

Guys who either play other healers or just plain dislike shamans: HAH welcome to the world of mortals scrub shaman! Now your just like any other healer!

Shamans reply: ENHANCEMENT AND ELEMENTAL EXIST FFS.

Its like the twin brothers in the playground noone wants to play with... jesus christ.

[Endus]

There's actually a lot of people who'd be fine with the change IF we were compensated.

Yep. One of my long-standing issues with Elemental in PvP is that we're lacking in protection against silences/interrupts. Most other casters either have a "screw y'all, I'm waiting this out" CD, like Ice Block or Dispersion, or have some ability to mitigate the effects of these, like Unending Resolve for Warlocks. Elemental has none of that. The one factor in our favor USED to be that even if we were Silenced/Interrupted, we still had totems, but that's no longer true, so this one negative has been exacerbated, when we were already faring poorly.

Had they addressed that issue for Elemental at the same time as making this change, I would've had a much more favorable outlook on this. But they didn't, which is why I'm critical. It may be necessary for Resto, and I agree with Ghostcrawler that Enhancement won't be affected TOO greatly by this (you're only likely to get Silenced if you're the only semi-caster in the comp; it's a negative but not a huge one), but it's a major hit for Elemental, particularly as a lot of our damage in PvP carries a cast time.

[Deleted]

You, both, are unfortuantely correct.

Also, thought I'd post GC's only twitter response thus far:

Q:
What's up with the totem nerfs coming in 5.1? I understand concerns for Resto shamans, but that really hurts Ele, and Enhance.

GC's response:
Do players really silence / interrupt Enhance often? Elemental... maybe.

How can the lead designer of this game be so utterly clueless?? I'm baffled.

GC they aren't doing it now because the downside aren't as strong as they will be after this nerf! Stop making a fun out of yourself everytime you say something and just shut up entirely, please!!

I know he won't read this at all, but oh God did that comment upset me.

[shell]

It may be necessary for Resto, and I agree with Ghostcrawler that Enhancement won't be affected TOO greatly by this (you're only likely to get Silenced if you're the only semi-caster in the comp; it's a negative but not a huge one), but it's a major hit for Elemental, particularly as a lot of our damage in PvP carries a cast time.

I'm not so sure. On the one hand, it puts enhancement and ret at the same disadvantage because they can't use damage abilities while silenced. On the other hand, ret seems to have more defenses while they're being controlled. I could be wrong, don't play a ret anymore and its sort of out of sight of mind; and I played enhancement as about as long as it took me to figure out how the hell to get the weapon imbue on my off hand weapon.

Latest twitter:

@Ghostcrawler Without being rude, PLEASE tell us if http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...4448292?page=1 … is being looked at. So many people, including nonshamans are upset.

@TommyShaman Not sure what to say - we like the change. I understand many players would like more opportunity to try and talk us out of it.

[Kralljin]

Surprise; the class development team is working on 33 different specs across both PvE and PvP. Sometimes, changes made for one spec have consequences they didn't foresee. You're attacking Ghostcrawler for recognizing there's an issue with Elemental, as a side effect of this change.

They're going to overlook things now and then. That's what community feedback is for. The idea that the development team should always only ever make the absolute perfect change that satisfies everyone in the community? That's a ridiculous impossible pipe dream. It cannot happen, and attacking them for failing to achieve it serves no purpose.

The point is, he replied to his question if a CASTER Spec is affected by Silence and Interrupt with "Maybe".

That's not an issue of how many classes / specs you have to balance, it's change that affects the core mechanic of a class, it should be obvious that it affects all 3 specs, secondly,if you continue to read this twitter thing, you'll see that GC is fine with it because:
"Blanket Silence are rare enough" and "Interrupts should be rewarding".

[Endus]

The point is, he replied to his question if a CASTER Spec is affected by Silence and Interrupt with "Maybe".

And in the context it was written within, that's a concession of the point.

You're deliberately misrepresenting his statement. There's plenty to be critical of without quoting Ghostcrawler out of context and trying to make mountains out of molehills.

[Kralljin]

And in the context it was written within, that's a concession of the point.

You're deliberately misrepresenting his statement. There's plenty to be critical of without quoting Ghostcrawler out of context and trying to make mountains out of molehills.

How am i quoting him out of context?

He wrote that Elemental get "maybe" often interrupted, which is a stupid statement in my opinion because Elemental is a caster and therefore target of these spells.

[Endus]

How am i quoting him out of context?

He wrote that Elemental get "maybe" often interrupted, which is a stupid statement in my opinion because Elemental is a caster and therefore target of these spells.

Everything there except "maybe" is something you're making up. That's how you're quoting him out of context; you're inventing an entirely new context and then inserting his comment into that.


There is only ONE way to interpret his tweet, based on how the language of English works. He was conceding that the person he was responding to had a point with regards to Elemental. If you're seeing anything else, it's something you're inventing, either deliberately or because you have an inherent bias against Ghostcrawler.


This is just like that "SLT" debacle during the beta, when one guy asked a question about Stormlash Totem using "SLT", and Ghostcrawler made a (bad) joke by pretending he was referring to Spirit Link Totem, which is what the acronym is typically used for. It was a complete non-issue, but people who hate Ghostcrawler tried to make it into one.

[Kralljin]

Everything there except "maybe" is something you're making up. That's how you're quoting him out of context; you're inventing an entirely new context and then inserting his comment into that.


There is only ONE way to interpret his tweet, based on how the language of English works. He was conceding that the person he was responding to had a point with regards to Elemental. If you're seeing anything else, it's something you're inventing, either deliberately or because you have an inherent bias against Ghostcrawler.

Then try to tell what he was trying to say with his tweet?

And please put the following tweets right after in this context.

[nazrakin]

Surprise; the class development team is working on 33 different specs across both PvE and PvP. Sometimes, changes made for one spec have consequences they didn't foresee. You're attacking Ghostcrawler for recognizing there's an issue with Elemental, as a side effect of this change.

They're going to overlook things now and then. That's what community feedback is for. The idea that the development team should always only ever make the absolute perfect change that satisfies everyone in the community? That's a ridiculous impossible pipe dream. It cannot happen, and attacking them for failing to achieve it serves no purpose.

I may agree with the premise here -- However, I'm not sure it applies in this particular instance. This is a very specific change that effects just 3 specs in PvP (almost exclusively). Its a change that really tears up some key pvp strategies for each of these specs. So no, there is no excuse for a change like this to not have been vetted from every direction.