How to reward 25 man raids for "logistical effort"

[Deleted]

And what do you mean with that? Numbers don't lie? People just need to get good. I'll say it again, go to lfr or to a training dummy if you wan't patchwerk style fights where no effort or brain is required. Thanks

If people have to be good to do something, by definition the average can't achieve it.

This isn't about liking it, not liking it or advocating anything btw. It's just a statement of fact about the current raid tier and the people who are managing to kill anything in it. Numbers are low - both in total amount of raider and in successful boss kills.

[Deleted]

If people have to be good to do something, by definition the average can't achieve it.

So? There are things "the average" can achieve and those they can't. That's not a problem.

[Deleted]

So? There are things "the average" can achieve and those they can't. That's not a problem.

I didn't say it was.

Other guy said that current raid tier is very easy and anyone can do it. The numbers say otherwise.

That's all. Measuring an easy to complete first four bosses (ICC) with the current raid tier is a false comparison.

[JuicedawgYO]

If people have to be good to do something, by definition the average can't achieve it.

This isn't about liking it, not liking it or advocating anything btw. It's just a statement of fact about the current raid tier and the people who are managing to kill anything in it. Numbers are low - both in total amount of raider and in successful boss kills.

So what if many people haven't killed it yet? The content is still young, baddies don't need to clear everything in a month. With the amount of braincells they seem to have they would probably burn out in the game anyways if they had all the kills served on a silver plate to them like they wish they did. Wiping for weeks to kill a boss is a big part of raiding for most people, world top10 or world top10000, live with it.

This goes out to all you kids out there who think you are good in some world 10000 guild, you suck, you don't deserve the kills before you practise more, get good, then you will get kills. ALL people who have started to play this game sucked at some point, ALL people in method, ALL people in BL, they practised and got very good.
Practise>get good>kill boss, that is WoW pve.

[Deleted]

LFR is not raiding though. It doesn't have any of the characteristics that defined raids previously. They're basically just public group quests for 25 people that you cannot fail.

Wow. Well I must say, well done for taking what I said almost entirely out of context, you have excelled yourself. I claimed LFR as a reason for another end. I didn't claim it was 'raiding'. Please read more than the first line before replying.

[Deleted]

So what if many people haven't killed it yet? The content is still young, baddies don't need to clear everything in a month. With the amount of braincells they seem to have they would probably burn out in the game anyways if they had all the kills served on a silver plate to them like they wish they did. Wiping for weeks to kill a boss is a big part of raiding for most people, world top10 or world top10000, live with it.

Ok, so you are now retracting your earlier statement about the current tier being super easy then?

[JuicedawgYO]

Ok, so you are now retracting your earlier statement about the current tier being super easy then?

No, I think you are taking my words out of my mouth now, try harder. The content is easy. And it doesn't need to be nerfed. People just need to practise and get good. That includes you Mr. world rank 9k+ 10man.

[Espe]

One might think that you should want to do 25 man because you like to raid with 24 other people and not for extra benefits. Seems reasonable to give them some food and stuff since you need more effort to manage 25 players than 10.

And what extra rewards should the 10 man players get for having to complete harder encounters which take much, much more personal responsibility?

[Deleted]

No, I think you are taking my words out of my mouth now, try harder. The content is easy. And it doesn't need to be nerfed. People just need to practise and get good. That includes you Mr. world rank 9k+ 10man.

Well yes, I am well above average but that's not important.

What's important is that you don't seem to be able to string more than two sentences together without contradicting yourself.

[Deleted]

No, I think you are taking my words out of my mouth now, try harder. The content is easy. And it doesn't need to be nerfed. People just need to practise and get good. That includes you Mr. world rank 9k+ 10man.

What he's saying and what you still fail to understand is saying content is easy is subjective to personal skill level.
The only way to back up the claims you make of content being easy, is by looking at numbers of kills. compared to previous kills, this cna obviously be distorted by numbers of players trying, but only blizzard would have that data. Wowprogress and otehr sites do not follow failure rate. World of logs failure rate is only of guilds that have uploaded data.
Which is not every single guild clearly.

[JuicedawgYO]

And what extra rewards should the 10 man players get for having to complete harder encounters which take much, much more personal responsibility?

Here we go another 10man raider. How can you take yourself serious?

[Rickdiculous]

Increased iLvl but balance encounters around 10man ilvl drops so the 10man babies won't have an excuse.

[JuicedawgYO]

What he's saying and what you still fail to understand is saying content is easy is subjective to personal skill level.
The only way to back up the claims you make of content being easy, is by looking at numbers of kills. compared to previous kills, this cna obviously be distorted by numbers of players trying, but only blizzard would have that data. Wowprogress and otehr sites do not follow failure rate. World of logs failure rate is only of guilds that have uploaded data.
Which is not every single guild clearly.

Oh I understand what you mean, I'm just trying to make you understand that random crappy players who have done nothing significant in wow shouldnt really comment on the state of raids for a simple reason, they don't know enough about it. Why do you think that blizzard dont listen at all to random baddies in sc2? because they are bad and they know nothing about the game, which is totally okay, but they somehow still think that they know something. I also still don't understand why blizzard haven't made wow like that yet, listening to the elite, it would help the game so much.

---------- Post added 2012-11-20 at 01:22 PM ----------

Well yes, I am well above average but that's not important.

What's important is that you don't seem to be able to string more than two sentences together without contradicting yourself.

9k+ world rank is above average? Live on in your dream world where 9k+ world rank is above average, stay bad. Still can't grasp how kids like you can take yourself so serious. I'm outta here, keep believing that you are above average and know anything about the game in depth

[Deleted]

Oh I understand what you mean, I'm just trying to make you understand that random crappy players who have done nothing significant in wow shouldnt really comment on the state of raids for a simple reason, they don't know enough about it.

Er no, completely wrong. Random crappy players who have never done anything are the playerbase.They are who the game should be designed for.

Why do you think that blizzard dont listen at all to random baddies in sc2? because they are bad and they know nothing about the game, which is totally okay, but they somehow still think that they know something. I also still don't understand why blizzard haven't made wow like that yet, listening to the elite, it would help the game so much.

The elite are irrelevent. Sorry to bring you this news, but the important players are those clustered around the average. They pay for the game and pay the bills. Blizzard has tpo keep them happy or there is no game.

[JuicedawgYO]

Er no, completely wrong. Random crappy players who have never done anything are the playerbase.They are who the game should be designed for.


The elite are irrelevent. Sorry to bring you this news, but the important players are those clustered around the average. They pay for the game and pay the bills. Blizzard has tpo keep them happy or there is no game.

Only a complete trash dumpster kid would say that the elite is irrelevant. Still sc2 is using the "noobs dont have anything to say" model and it works. Kids like you make me wanna puke, realize that you are bad and know nothing about the game in depth. Don't even know why I am "discussing" this with you, some random noob.

[Deleted]

Only a complete trash dumpster kid would say that the elite is irrelevant.

Or someone who had sold products to the general public.

Still sc2 is using the "noobs dont have anything to say" model and it works. Kids like you make me wanna puke, realize that you are bad and know nothing about the game in depth.

Sc2 doesn't ask people to pay for it every month.

[wilbbailey]

Getting rid of shared lockouts would fix the whole "25s are dying" thing. If you can only pick one of course people will take the path of least resistance but, with a choice at least some people would do both.

[Punisher069]

Only a complete trash dumpster kid would say that the elite is irrelevant. Still sc2 is using the "noobs dont have anything to say" model and it works. Kids like you make me wanna puke, realize that you are bad and know nothing about the game in depth. Don't even know why I am "discussing" this with you, some random noob.

You are trying really hard to seem like you are important in any way. On topic on my server there are still quite a few 25 mans and the top guilds on the server having been 25 man since cata and doing well.

[Tepesch]

Increased iLvl but balance encounters around 10man ilvl drops so the 10man babies won't have an excuse.

That is not a solution, and will never be. If you can't accept that there are 10man raiding guilds out there, with people which have the same or more skill than you, you are to narrow minded to purpose a widely accepted solution here.

The only "solution" to this "problem" is a uniform raiding size. However I see no problem here, because the problem is the people itself, which are complaining at this very moment on this or any other forum about the state of 25man raiding, which make 25man raiding bad.

It's about the people who are late, who fail, who don't do their job. It's not about the game, or the design. And I still don't see a reason to reward better loot to people who don't do their job in a raidgroup because it would disband otherwise

[Deleted]

Also, a 25 man raid in ICC rarely went past Saurfang. Why don't you do that same chart tracking the end boss kills in the tiers, see how that lines up?

Yea true story...not!

http://www.wowprogress.com/achievement/22

You can put that one in, although it is very unfair to compare 5th boss ICC with...Morchok lets say!
It proves the obvious beyond any doupt.

The system allowed for hundreds of thousands of people to get excluded from raiding.
Simple..

Not a single 10 man lover wants to talk about that FACT!