No new dungeons, really Blizzard?

[Duster505]

My biggest problem with Dailies has always been "Why in the fuck am I paying $15 a month for a fucking solo player game?" as that's the mentality that sets in once you have to dedicate so much time to do "group' play via solo play.

And I'm sorry, but this retort of "well wtf noob that's what guilds are for" or "ask in trade" for party members is sort of pathetic. I've seen a complete decline in guild activity across the spectrum since Wrath unless it is "raid time" and if I'm supposed to dig in trade for random people to do dailies with then what was the problem with people doing that for Dungeons and Raids?? (not saying that I support it, just pointing out the mild level of hypocrisy)

Ye - daily quest content in its current form is the worst content in the game possible. But its cheap to make (specially in MOP with such bad - just go and kill quests) but it doesn't tick any other boxes. It does not lead to teamwork - it has zero social value - and in its current form its build to benefit one role (dps) over the other 2 (specially healers). For me thats enough for Blizzard to admit its bad content and other endgame content should also be rewarding rep and charms.

[Crashdummy]

(TLDR: Blizzard is looking to cut dungeons and replace them with scenarios with their current design plans. A gutsy proposition.)

Its actually worse than that. Blizzard is replacing Dungeons with Dailies.

[DetectiveJohnKimble]

And what does that mean? Before you had multiple daily quest hubs and five different LFR queues and Scenarios and a regularly respawning world boss you had "more options?"

Seriously, be specific, because it sounds like you had a point but left it at home before showing up.

That's the problem. There are more options to gear up than ever before. Adding dungeons heavily detracts from all those other options, yet it's somehow reducing content when they don't add in new 5 mans (even though new dungeons are generally low quality content).

It's like that blue post a few days ago that basically summarized someone's argument as "I only want to do dungeons/raid (but not LFR)." That's exactly the mentality that we need to get away from to make MOP not like Cata. With no new dungeons, Blizzard can throw out a 12 boss raid that's looking fairly solid and give us a myriad of ways to gear up, with dailies being one of them.

[hakujinbakasama]

Ye - MOP is pretty much just grind. Force ppl to do this or that for different stuff to progress their characters. The focus on fun is pretty much zero tho and whats even more disturbing is that some roles in the game are given a nightmare time to do stuff - if they even can.

Scenarios are a huge failure in my book. WOW has always been based around the trinity concept and thats what made the game fun and interesting for such a big group of players. Now Blizzard is pushing healers and tanks out into a corner (probably to counter GW2). Players that before played a tank and a healer spec on their character are now forced to go dps to do stuff like Brawlers guild. Thats just bad game design cause every person that plays both Tank and healer in like LFD and LFR is godsend.

My problem is that I've been a diehard for tanking and healing since TBC and this expansion and Cata give me no reason to bother with it. It actually bores the shit out of me. I would be happy to sit in LFD all damn day 7 days a week if I even remotely found it fun anymore but I just don't. I feel as if the item upgrade was a nice idea to push that but the 5 mans are fucking boring vast aoe racing games with generally dickish or dead silent people. I might as well be playing a round of Unreal Tournament with bots as it feels almost the same these days.

[hakujinbakasama]

Its actually worse than that. Blizzard is replacing Dungeons with Dailies.

Which makes it feel more like a glorified Zynga game than something from Blizzard.

[Psilar]

5.2 is coming in about May, based on what Ghostcrawler said.

May is about 7 months after Mists came out, with no new content for the non raiders or PvPers to get gear from.

The way they phrased WHY there's no new dungeons insinuates there will be NO NEW DUNGEONS FOR THE ENTIRE EXPANSION. They seem to think LFR has replaced dungeons in progression, period. Which is not right, in any way.

5.2 coming in MAY?! That's WAYYYYY too long...and Blizz knows it.

Here's what we know. Quest in Krasarang said fleets were coming in 2 months. 2 months come and 5.1 drops. Furthermore, roughly 1-2 weeks prior to 5.1 people were finishing their Sha GEMS. Part 2 requires at least 6 weeks. Add two weeks for a buffer and I say 2 months after 5.1 dropped. 5.1 didn't add much content....

[Dravelar]

How many dungeons (including leveling) TBC had? 15 on release.
How many new dungeons MoP has? 6 (I am not counting Scarlet Monastery and Scholo for obvious reasons).

It isn't much about catch-up system as it is about people tired of MoP dungeons before they even reached lv90 if they preferred doing dungeons to questing (most of tanks and healers). But MoP added tanks and healers to "black list", leaving them spots only in raids, and make all other content around dailies and scenarios, designed around dps class and filled with anti-cooperation ("competition" over quest objects) and grief (hey, this tank is trying to kill those 9999999 HP mobs, let's bring one more to him in his lol-AoE and get free quest kill).

MoP needs to add at least 9 more dungeons to be somewhat on par with TBC in terms of dungeons. No new 5-men in 5.1 & 5.2, but more dailies (...) isn't going to fix severe lack of dungeons in MoP. WoW also greatly suffers from all that GC's nonsence. While murdering 25-men raids was somewhat "understandable", and a lot of other bad design decisions were somewhat "debatable", killing dungeons and promoting dailies is 1 bad decision too much. GC must go back to his rts and fps games.

I prefer the SM and Scholo revamps 10 times more than most of the TBC dungeons tbh

[Duster505]

The point is that a catch up mechanism isn't necessary. Plus the VP items should be higher ilvl.

There will be a need for catch up mechanism. I think we are gonna see very serious and big drop out of players in the next 2-3 months (considering the huge focus on grind) and new players coming in will not be able to gear up fast enough (because of so low valor cap). Also the increased gap in ilvls between mains and offspecs will leave so many more casual guilds stranded. And beeing left stranded means more ppl will stop subbing.

[omni]

Step 1. Mid-End of BC: People complain that they have to run older raids to gear up new members or casual players don't feel gear progression, so Blizz changes the system for Wrath; adding new 5 mans and demoting Valor gear to Justice gear.

Step 2. End of Wrath/Cata: People complain that previous raid tiers have become completely obsolete because of the 5 man/Just (previously Valor), why bother raiding when you can just wait for the previous tier gear to be available for Justice.

Step 3. Rinse and repeat, forever. Thanks WoW Community -.-

At this stage if they added new 5 mans they'd have to add new (higher ilvl) gear to justify running them. If they added gear, they screw up their MoP gearing path. Blizzard plan, from the looks of it, is to have casual players feel gear progression through LFR.

[Preliatus]

Ye - MOP is pretty much just grind. Force ppl to do this or that for different stuff to progress their characters. The focus on fun is pretty much zero tho and whats even more disturbing is that some roles in the game are given a nightmare time to do stuff - if they even can.

Scenarios are a huge failure in my book. WOW has always been based around the trinity concept and thats what made the game fun and interesting for such a big group of players. Now Blizzard is pushing healers and tanks out into a corner (probably to counter GW2). Players that before played a tank and a healer spec on their character are now forced to go dps to do stuff like Brawlers guild. Thats just bad game design cause every person that plays both Tank and healer in like LFD and LFR is godsend.

Exactly.

I actually went off to try out Guild Wars 2 and their lack of a holy trinity is done quite well. (Actually there are types of builds: Single-target DPS, Damage Soak, Condie DPS (Think DoTs. A lot of DoTs.) , and Supports) While the class system is great for a new game it's not something an old game should try out unless the developers want to usher out their old crowd base.

I personally went "I'm tired of being the DPS in groups. I'm going to do MoP as a Tank. Level as a tank, and then enjoy 90 as a tank." One of the many reasons I stopped playing is that at 88 I felt I was going nowhere in the survivability spectrum. It was all about high damage to widdle down those high amounts of health, and if I didn't kill them within a certain amount of seconds I was done for. While this current expansion for World of Warcraft is a drastic change, and could either lead for worse down along the road, or better if they realize they just screwed the pooch and surgically removed all fun out of the game. (Leveling just to 88 felt like a chore and was the main reason I went. "Screw this." and left the game.)

I think what most people in the current player-base should do is either wait out the suffering and turmoil of the current expansion grind, and then see what new pastures come along in the next. Right now? I don't think with all the fun sucked out of WoW that anything good will happen around the corner.

(Fun Fact: I left out of being bored during the 85-90 leveling, and bought Guild Wars 2. I used the "I don't like bipedal bears." Well.. Guild Wars 2 has bipedal Polar Bears. Real reason for leaving? Tight budget, lack of fun while leveling. Too grindy.)

[Tastyfish]

poor Blizzard, can't win in any way.

FOR fucking REAL.

It's really getting tired, that whole drama where they loose nomatter what.

[Preliatus]

Its actually worse than that. Blizzard is replacing Dungeons with Dailies.

Damn.

My assumption for the game was better than what it actually is.

[Duster505]

5.2 coming in MAY?! That's WAYYYYY too long...and Blizz knows it.

Here's what we know. Quest in Krasarang said fleets were coming in 2 months. 2 months come and 5.1 drops. Furthermore, roughly 1-2 weeks prior to 5.1 people were finishing their Sha GEMS. Part 2 requires at least 6 weeks. Add two weeks for a buffer and I say 2 months after 5.1 dropped. 5.1 didn't add much content....

April or May is the most likely outcome. Just because PTR will be up in January does not mean that they have done much work on the raid content already. It sounds more like PR to keep ppl subbing one extra month so that the 4th Quarter report looks abit better. Im pretty sure we will see huge loss in sub numbers in 1st quarter of 2013 - unless ofc they start to give the expansion out for free like they did with Cata. But even that wont interest ppl now. Its that bad.

[DetectiveJohnKimble]

Exactly.

(Fun Fact: I left out of being bored during the 85-90 leveling, and bought Guild Wars 2. I used the "I don't like bipedal bears." Well.. Guild Wars 2 has bipedal Polar Bears. Real reason for leaving? Tight budget, lack of fun while leveling. Too grindy.)

I think you were just looking for a new game to level in, and that can definitely be fun in GW2 (I occasionally level random alts just to see many of the zones I never did when I maxed my engineer). You'll realize when you max level in GW2 that it's nothing more than a huge grindfest for karma or dungeon tokens for transmog gear (although they've recently added in some gear progression, so you'll have to grind that out as well).

[Bopcommander]

Yea new dungeons would be nice, but I personally rather have them spend more time and effort in making a new raid that fun and has new models, mechanics, abilities than duplicating what we've all seen before. I doubt that was their intent, but I'm okay with no new dungeons.

[shokter]

I like this. It seems they are pushing a progression model that encourages people to clear and farm a tier before moving on. No huge new Valor gear tier (likely only 1 new vendor for the new faction, no piss easy 5 mans for people to run ad nauseam until they have acquired gear that is better than ToES. Yes there will be a new lfr, but that can only fill in gear slots so fast. It does seem to me, so far at least, that this will keep players moving through each tier; the whole playerbase will not magically jump up to the new raid.

[Deleted]

Lol, do you guys remember what happens when we get a two or three dungeon tier? We get angry because we have to grind the same 2-3 dungeons over and over again. Examples lie in 4.1 and 4.3.

Can you even decide what to get angry at?

[Coldpro]

Because it extends the amount of time a scenario takes by 10-20 minutes.

1 healer increases the amount of time a scenario takes by 10 - 20 mins? I call bullshit. Sorry, but plain and simple, thats bullshit.

[Crashdummy]

What?

You can run dungeons for JP and buy 489 gear

Actually, you cant without doing dailies.

you can do Sha of Anger/Galleon (reduced respawn timer)

Once per week, which is not a catch up mechanism. Its old bosses (like VoA bosses were old bosses)

run t14 LFR, run t15 LFR,

Again, old raiding are not catch up mechanism, as TBC proved.

buy the new rewards with VP

Not without dailies

/CP/Honor,

Blizzard said they dont want people PVPing to get PVE viable gear

or run t14 normals/heroics.

463 ilvl wont be viable gear.

Having new dungeons give gear that matches t14 LFR quality actually ends up reducing content, because people would just run that crap over and over until they could hit t15. That kind of progression sucks, because it makes the older raids obsolete too quickly and because running a couple of dungeons nonstop is extraordinarily boring. I'm not sure why people think dungeons are all that interesting- to me they're about on par with scenarios, but at least scenarios have quicker matchmaking.

This is what you dont understand. Without catch up mechanisms, you force people into doing old content, and since people that already did that content dont want to do that again, when someone doing t15 content need a replacement they wont go and gear a new player in the old raids, they will just steal a raider from less progressed raid groups, starving those groups and making them progress really slowly or not progress at all.

Old raids are OLD CONTENT, its only natural that is left behind. New tiers of dungeons fixed that problem providing a reliant catch up mechanism

Without dungeons, more people are out in the world doing stuff, seeing other people, killing opposing faction players, and interacting with each other when forming raids together (which may potentially be nerfed to ease PUGs)/helping kill world bosses/crafting gear. They're doing exactly what they need to do to get away from the failure that was Cata, and are going back to a model similar to what occurred in 3.1 except with a lot more stuff to do to gear up.

Without dungeons, you are forcing a big part of your playerbase into doing stuff they dont want, burning them out faster than before (people burn out by doing stuff they dont like), you make groups being unable to progress thanks to starving, you basically pidgeonhole people into what YOU want (dailies) by taking options away, which is exactly what i said.

[hyphnos]

The real problem I'm having with all of this is people complaining because Blizzard isn't providing a whole new tier of dungeons when we are presently about three months into the expansion. I'm not aware that they've ever done this this early. Maybe we can talk about 4.1 but that was pretty much a disaster at the end of the day.

Look, I get it that you want dungeons. But the last two expansions, gearing up was mainly done only with dungeons/raids. And if you weren't raiding, then it was primarily randoms. That's one option. One. It might be one you like, but one really viable option isn't an option.

It's still a little bit early to be proclaiming gloom and doom for the expansion.

And removing the one really viable option and replacing it a long queue time intensive slot machine is better how?

Dungeons in combination with justice/valor gear (when they were playable by the average grouper) were a reliable means of gear progression.

JP and their equivalent weren't capped in the past and bought dungeon ilvl gear. Now they don't and the main means they give of upping ilvl is either through double gated valor gear or by winning a slot machine in a very time intensive and luck dependent LFR.

One reliable option is better than the entirely luck based "option" of LFR and scenarios. Valor is way too slow sit along side the luck based high item level system so I really don't see where you think the "options" are.

Dungeons are the only repeatable fast place to reliably get gear and that isn't changing with 5.2 and now that gear will be even further below what is necessary to get in the 5.2 LFR.

The only option I see is to play the expac from the start which is a huge time demand that new players most likely won't be willing to meet.