The Game Was Better When.....

[Drfireburns]

What guilds?

Everyone does LFR.

Guilds are for the hardcore only now.


I am more than capable of making friends and putting effort into doing that because I am such a confident person, but like I said, I have to fight the game to do it. Whereas before in vanilla, TBC and Wrath, you had to make friends to see the game otherwise you simply wouldn't see everything.

Again, I'm going to call you out on this and your incorrect information. I take it you never see *so and so guild looking to recruit X and X for guild. We are a casual guild who raids on x and x day*?

I can't tell you how many casual guilds I see recruiting now that do normal/lfr/5mans and bgs daily. Not ALL guilds only raid HC. WotLK came out November 13th, 2008. I'm pretty sure the LFG feature was implemented then for the 3 stage achievements. You didn't HAVE to have "friends" then to do 5 man dungeons. So, I really don't understand why you are spewing this BS out.

[Deleted]

That's just nonsense. I've been in the same guild since TBC and we've not even started to raid normals yet. We barely even do LFR. We do so much more together. And believe me, we are FAR from hardcore lol

---------- Post added 2012-12-30 at 03:48 PM ----------


That's just not true. I first did MC knowing just 1 person out of 40. I stand by the fact that there were still trolls and general dickish people around even then. Hell, they were around in Vanilla beta!

Good for you. You are an exception to the rule. Everyone else does LFR and hardly bothers with organized raids anymore. Stats already proved that 25 man guilds died in Cataclysm as well.

Of course there are always bad apples, but now they rule the game while the rest of us refuse to waste our time. We have better things to do than tolerate a game where communities aren't necessary and where there are no consequences for destroying the game for everyone else.

Before the community was self-regulating because people actually knew each other on their server. Now that's gone.

You don't want to recognize the fact that people are the product of their environment. Create an environment where selfishness is rewarded and cooperation is unnecessary and not only will it attract every lowlife to the game, but it will create these people as well.

But you have fun with that dude.

---------- Post added 2012-12-30 at 04:01 PM ----------

Again, I'm going to call you out on this and your incorrect information. I take it you never see *so and so guild looking to recruit X and X for guild. We are a casual guild who raids on x and x day*?

I can't tell you how many casual guilds I see recruiting now that do normal/lfr/5mans and bgs daily. Not ALL guilds only raid HC. WotLK came out November 13th, 2008. I'm pretty sure the LFG feature was implemented then for the 3 stage achievements. You didn't HAVE to have "friends" then to do 5 man dungeons. So, I really don't understand why you are spewing this BS out.

Casual guilds mostly do LFR. It's easier to use LFR because you don't need to commit to a schedule.

Also, the early TBC heroics were very PUG unfriendly. I still remember. It was better to have friends. In fact, the vanilla 5 mans were so long sometimes that it was better to have friends there too. You know how impatient "casuals" are.

[Drfireburns]

Good for you. You are an exception to the rule. Everyone else does LFR and hardly bothers with organized raids anymore. Stats already proved that 25 man guilds died in Cataclysm as well.

Of course there are always bad apples, but now they rule the game while the rest of us refuse to waste our time. We have better things to do than tolerate a game where communities aren't necessary and where there are no consequences for destroying the game for everyone else.

Before the community was self-regulating because people actually knew each other on their server. Now that's gone.

You don't want to recognize the fact that people are the product of their environment. Create an environment where selfishness is rewarded and cooperation is unnecessary and not only will it attract every lowlife to the game, but it will create these people as well.

But you have fun with that dude.

---------- Post added 2012-12-30 at 04:01 PM ----------



Casual guilds mostly do LFR. It's easier to use LFR because you don't need to commit to a schedule.

Also, the early TBC heroics were very PUG unfriendly. I still remember. It was better to have friends. In fact, the vanilla 5 mans were so long sometimes that it was better to have friends there too. You know how impatient "casuals" are.

Vanilla and TBC were much harder, I agree and typically did require friends. I can say though that probably half of my TBC 5 man experience was with friends, while I usually pugged the rest. My guild wasn't too interested in doing the heroic daily quests in Shattrath, so if I wanted to run them I had to go by myself.

[Nerraw]

What guilds?

Everyone does LFR.

Guilds are for the hardcore only now.


I am more than capable of making friends and putting effort into doing that because I am such a confident person, but like I said, I have to fight the game to do it. Whereas before in vanilla, TBC and Wrath, you had to make friends to see the game otherwise you simply wouldn't see everything.

Something tells me you haven't been playing the game for a while. Or haven't actually tried to interact with other people.

[Deleted]

Something tells me you haven't been playing the game for a while. Or haven't actually tried to interact with other people.

What tells you that matey?

[Elysara]

What tells you that matey?

Because like 90% of the MMO-Champion user-base. You probably quit WoW a year ago but still stick around to bash it to justify it to yourself for leaving.

You claim there is no community, You claim no one knows each other, You claim everyone is an ass, No one actually raids with guilds anymore.

Stop playing the victim and realize you just had a shitty experience, I'm sorry you did but you did.

There is a community and people do know each other. I am in a 10 man raiding guild and am friends with a couple of GM from at least 2-3 other 10 man raiding guilds on this server. My server actively pugs Vaults,Heart. As well as selling Heroic runs and generally advertising for ICC/BT/Hyjal etc mog runs.

Every Tuesday a chick named "Tandrasong" Does ICC/BT/ToC/Hyjal/Ulduar mog runs and everyone knows it, So when she advertises in trade it's like her trademark and everyone knows her "Tandrasongs weekly mog runs looking for more ^.^"

Stop - Playing - The - Victim.

It's not impossible to make friends or join raiding guilds, You actually have to put forth an effort for those things to come, It doesn't come to you on a silver platter.

Yes people are assholes but welcome the human race, Assholes are everywhere regardless of what you do. Your job, Your grocery store, Your Walmart, WoW and anywhere else you can think. People are assholes, Plain and simple.

[Deleted]

You claim there is no community, You claim no one knows each other, You claim everyone is an ass, No one actually raids with guilds anymore.

No I am sure that there are exceptions to the rule, but LFR has become the norm for raiding. Feel free to deny it.


Here, here's a 200 page topic about the dead servers that Blizzard refused to merge:

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2986509135

[DieFichte]

Good for you. You are an exception to the rule.

Well, you just gave the reason why the community is broken in your eyes. I think I ran 2 or 3 heroic 5m dungeons in MoP that weren't a guild run (3+ guild members), because, you know, when I go do dungeons, I asked in guildchat, same with LFR, and there are always people running with me. Maybe you should join a better/bigger guild if you are tired of running with random people?

I vanilla/TBC a lot of people were shut out of content, because they didn't know anyone in the game, or had a hard time finding guilds, a lot of good people and some jerks. Not everyone is a dick out there, so why punish them with inaccessible content? Hey, I don't even hurt people that raid that LFR/LFD is there. And no, people that raid are not hardcore, we are normal guys, that just raid in the game.

No I am sure that there are exceptions to the rule, but LFR has become the norm for raiding. Feel free to deny it.

Ofc, it's the norm now, lots of people that do LFR never raided before. LFR didn't destory guilds and normal mode raids, it just gave an alternative for people that don't want to raid on a fixed schedule and need to find a raid for that (and people who organize it). In my guild we have about 12 former raidleaders (38 raider total atm) and only 2 of them are in the current raidlead (and even those two are only officers and not raidlead) the rest is burned out from raidleading in the past, the rest just want to get home after work and and enjoy raiding. It's the same effect with normal raiders, some just want to sit down and play the game, LFR is a good way to do that. Most former raiders that now only do LFR just didn't want to raid anymore, it's not that LFR is easier, it's just more fun if you don't like the commitment a raid needs for your fun hobby.

[Elysara]

No I am sure that there are exceptions to the rule, but LFR has become the norm for raiding. Feel free to deny it.


Here, here's a 200 page topic about the dead servers that Blizzard refused to merge:

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2986509135

So quote one thing out of my entire post just to keep your point going, I see...

Are you a child? Or are you an adult? Can you actually read the rest of my post and respond to it or will you continue to play the Victim and pout until someone agrees with you and your ways?

[Deleted]

Well, you just gave the reason why the community is broken in your eyes. I think I ran 2 or 3 heroic 5m dungeons in MoP that weren't a guild run (3+ guild members), because, you know, when I go do dungeons, I asked in guildchat, same with LFR, and there are always people running with me. Maybe you should join a better/bigger guild if you are tired of running with random people?

I vanilla/TBC a lot of people were shut out of content, because they didn't know anyone in the game, or had a hard time finding guilds, a lot of good people and some jerks. Not everyone is a dick out there, so why punish them with inaccessible content? Hey, I don't even hurt people that raid that LFR/LFD is there. And no, people that raid are not hardcore, we are normal guys, that just raid in the game.

All I am saying is, people are disconnected in WoW. Both by accident and by design.

There is no community now except for what we create ourselves.

Now I don't know about you guys, but as a gamer myself, I want that community feeling back. But because Blizz have to make everything solo friendly it simply isn't coming back.

That's wrong.

Blizzard have created a big gap in the market for a darker MMORPG that has a big emphasis on playing with friends. Maybe they will fill that gap with Titan, but as long as we have to fight the game just to enjoy the social aspect that WoW once had, it will never be the same.

I'm not interested in joining a guild of casuals who don't really care about the game, nor do I want to join a group of elitists who treat the game like a military exercise. I want something in between and I want the game to actually encourage it. WoW doesn't. LFR rewards failure. The game needs to motivate people to make friends and guild raid more.

---------- Post added 2012-12-30 at 04:45 PM ----------

So quote one thing out of my entire post just to keep your point going, I see...

Are you a child? Or are you an adult? Can you actually read the rest of my post and respond to it or will you continue to play the Victim and pout until someone agrees with you and your ways?

You decided to put words in my mouth so I decided to prove to you that there really is no community anymore.

LFR is the norm and no one knows each other because no one needs to make friends to see the game.

[Adramalech]

LFR is challenging and engaging content?

You know, this is the most funny part. Why is it funny?

Because LFR is the EASIEST group content available to do at max level. NOTHING in the game (as far as group content is concerned) is easier than LFR, nothing, that's a fact. And it is STILL more complex, harder and more engaging than most of the Classic raids and dungeons were. That's why I find all these arguments so funny. People like you bash LFR as if it was the plague, and criticize how easy it is and how it isn't engaging or fun, yet it STILL manages to be far above Classic raids in quality, complexity and difficulty. And this is only the easiest level of the raids. The heroic modes make Classic content look like a huge pile of nothing in difficulty. The common denominator between the Classic raids and LFR T14, is the player. Now what's more likely, that you sucked back in your precious "Vanilla", or raids now, even in LFR, are easier than Classic?

[Deleted]

You know, this is the most funny part. Why is it funny?

Because LFR is the EASIEST group content available to do at max level. NOTHING in the game (as far as group content is concerned) is easier than LFR, nothing, that's a fact. And it is STILL more complex, harder and more engaging than most of the Classic raids and dungeons were. That's why I find all these arguments so funny. People like you bash LFR as if it was the plague, and criticize how easy it is and how it isn't engaging or fun, yet it STILL manages to be far above Classic raids in quality, complexity and difficulty. And this is only the easiest level of the raids. The heroic modes make Classic content look like a huge pile of nothing in difficulty.

Take Joe the casual out of LFR and then ask him to gather together 39 other raiders all with the right specs, gear and patience to stay until the job is done.

Joe the casual will cry himself to sleep. In fact, I'm sure that Joe the casual couldn't even gather 19 people to clear AQ 20. Avoiding the tornadoes on Ossirion or in fact, gathering and spreading on the trash alone without a big red and white warning flashing on the screen is a "second job".

LFR rewards failure. It gives people gear for doing nothing. It gives people gear they don't deserve. That's why it's so bad for the game.

[Elysara]

You decided to put words in my mouth so I decided to prove to you that there really is no community anymore.

LFR is the norm and no one knows each other because no one needs to make friends to see the game.

So basically that is a yes, I provided you with the truth, Saying there is a community and that people do know each other, As well as the fact that my server holds multiple Vaults,Heart PuGs. But instead of replying to that, You retort with a WoW forum post about someone raging there is no community.

Someone just agree with him so he can stop being a pouty child and become an actual adult, One that can hold a conversation without having other people speak for him.

[Adramalech]

Take Joe the casual out of LFR and then ask him to gather together 39 other raiders all with the right specs, gear and patience to stay until the job is done.

Joe the casual will cry himself to sleep. In fact, I'm sure that Joe the casual couldn't even gather 19 people to clear AQ 20. Avoiding the tornadoes on Ossirion or in fact, gathering and spreading on the trash alone without a big red and white warning flashing on the screen is a "second job".

LFR rewards failure. It gives people gear for doing nothing. It gives people gear they don't deserve. That's why it's so bad for the game.

You can claim whatever you want about Joe the casual, but truth is, a group of 40 Joes could and would clear any Classic raid or dungeon (except Naxxramas and perhaps parts of AQ40). The ONLY issue Joe would have is time. But in a vaccuum, assuming Joe had time and all his raid would stick around to the end? Yeah.

Understand this, the average player today is a lot more skilled and has a lot more knowledge of the game than the "pro" player had 7 years ago. If you put a raid of 40 average players together today and sent them into a "Vanilla" realm to clear Molten Core, they'd be done in no time, again, assuming they stick together and have time.

You claim LFR rewards failure, yet you won't get past a boss if you fail, getting no reward. Just like any other boss, in any other period of the game, in any difficulty. What kind of reward does someone who AFK through LFR deserve? About the same as someone who would AFK through Molten Bore: nothing. Yet, in both occasions, they do get their rewards. Are things so different now when it comes to the community? No, the community has been a steaming pile of crap, excuse the language, since day one. Oppurtunistic assholes like the AFK player mentioned above always existed. The game has mostly improved, the playerbase, however, only manages to sink lower and lower.

[Okacz]

You know, this is the most funny part. Why is it funny?

Because LFR is the EASIEST group content available to do at max level. NOTHING in the game (as far as group content is concerned) is easier than LFR, nothing, that's a fact. And it is STILL more complex, harder and more engaging than most of the Classic raids and dungeons were. That's why I find all these arguments so funny. People like you bash LFR as if it was the plague, and criticize how easy it is and how it isn't engaging or fun, yet it STILL manages to be far above Classic raids in quality, complexity and difficulty. And this is only the easiest level of the raids. The heroic modes make Classic content look like a huge pile of nothing in difficulty. The common denominator between the Classic raids and LFR T14, is the player. Now what's more likely, that you sucked back in your precious "Vanilla", or raids now, even in LFR, are easier than Classic?

Erm, wrong. Pretty damn wrong.

The difficulty of old, classic raids is way higher then LFR. In a bit more annoying then challanging way, but still.

Nowadays, the challange is based on the damage output. Complexity of the mechanics. Need to strategise your movement. Gear requirements. Those are things that allow you to kill a boss. What was it back then? Well, finding a full, 40-man team of non-afking players, handle server crashes in the middle of the raids, making sure you have a certain amount of certain classes/specces. Back then, the strategy to kill a boss wasn't based on what you read in Dung Journal and making sure you don't screw up - it was based on using clever tricks, like finding out that bosses can't damage you in any way if you are out of the line of sight or you can boost your team with a mind controlled mob.

I'd say if old MC/BWL raiders were somehow transported into LFR, they would wipe there for a few hours - but after that, they would manage to adapt and kill those bosses again without breaking a sweat. If current LFR "raiders" were forced into MC they would never even go in. They wouldn't find patience to farm resistance gear, log in after server crashes, they wouldn't like to experiment with their class to help their team. And if they would really engage a boss, they wouldn't do him in any way. Not without patience and persistance.

[Deleted]

So basically that is a yes, I provided you with the truth, Saying there is a community and that people do know each other, As well as the fact that my server holds multiple Vaults,Heart PuGs. But instead of replying to that, You retort with a WoW forum post about someone raging there is no community.

Someone just agree with him so he can stop being a pouty child and become an actual adult, One that can hold a conversation without having other people speak for him.

What community is left is an exception to the rule. MoP is nothing like vanilla, TBC or Wrath.

The difference really is like night and day. Back then we had server communities. Remember? Now we have LFR and cross realm zones where you meet people that you will never meet again.

If you can't see the difference then I can't help you.

[Flaks]

The game was a ton better back when I didn't know every knoock and crany of every zone and every class and ever tier. Now I know too much and it just makes the game less of a "world".

[Deleted]

You can claim whatever you want about Joe the casual, but truth is, a group of 40 Joes could and would clear any Classic raid or dungeon (except Naxxramas and perhaps parts of AQ40). The ONLY issue Joe would have is time. But in a vaccuum, assuming Joe had time and all his raid would stick around to the end? Yeah.

Understand this, the average player today is a lot more skilled and has a lot more knowledge of the game than the "pro" player had 7 years ago. If you put a raid of 40 average players together today and sent them into a "Vanilla" realm to clear Molten Core, they'd be done in no time, again, assuming they stick together and have time.

That may be true, but it's not easy to organize people, especially not for new hard content. Overcoming hard content needs to be rewarded more.

[caninepawprints]

I've been playing since vanilla, and to be honest, I think WoW was best in Wrath of the Lich King. It's when they had the most subscribers, too.

My favorite things to do was AOE grind and heal. They removed any effective form of AOE grinding, and they completely changed the healing model. Now I can't do the two things I enjoyed the most.

[Adramalech]

Erm, wrong. Pretty damn wrong.

The difficulty of old, classic raids is way higher then LFR. In a bit more annoying then challanging way, but still.

Nowadays, the challange is based on the damage output. Complexity of the mechanics. Need to strategise your movement. Gear requirements. Those are things that allow you to kill a boss. What was it back then? Well, finding a full, 40-man team of non-afking players, handle server crashes in the middle of the raids, making sure you have a certain amount of certain classes/specces. Back then, the strategy to kill a boss wasn't based on what you read in Dung Journal and making sure you don't screw up - it was based on using clever tricks, like finding out that bosses can't damage you in any way if you are out of the line of sight or you can boost your team with a mind controlled mob.

I'd say if old MC/BWL raiders were somehow transported into LFR, they would wipe there for a few hours - but after that, they would manage to adapt and kill those bosses again without breaking a sweat. If current LFR "raiders" were forced into MC they would never even go in. They wouldn't find patience to farm resistance gear, log in after server crashes, they wouldn't like to experiment with their class to help their team. And if they would really engage a boss, they wouldn't do him in any way. Not without patience and persistance.

So basically... you're telling me I'm wrong, and then enumerating what made the raids challenging back then, and you list... nothing relevant. I don't know about you, but I define how challenging a boss is by what it does and what the players have to do to react to it, not the fact that I have to farm for a specific set of resistance gear, abusing bugs like LoS, getting 40 people together, or surviving through the Login Boss.

I'll stick to what I say, a group of players from 7 years ago wouldn't even be able to kill Morchok in LFR, which is the epitome of easy, while an average group of players from today would kill Ragnaros with one hand on their pockets.

That may be true, but it's not easy to organize people, especially not for new hard content.

I'll definitely agree with that, but I still maintain that the boss itself is the biggest difficulty factor, not external issues like organization or required gear, or whatever else can influence a fight that isn't part of the fight.