If it wasn't for the Orcs, would the other races get along ok?

[Deleted]

Trolls and Elves are different species, mutated by magic. Kaldorei and High Elves are still the same species though, but they are separate from Naga.

Yes, they were mutated, but their genetic heritage is nearly the same. What extend of mutation splits one azerothian species into two? Trolls and elves (and naga) are much closer to each other then Elves and Human. But this was one crazy thought I stumbled upon, not the foundation of my reasoning.

High Elves are still High Elves and they are part of the Alliance. The Blood Elves are a group that broke off from High Elf culture.


I know in the video he says they are part of the Horde. But there's no way for him to know the distinction between Blood Elves and the remaining High Elves. Just because 90% became Blood Elves doesn't mean that they aren't the splinter group. Just look at ROC and PRC. PRC is the splinter group, yet they occupy all of China except Taiwan where ROC is.

This is your view. The lore says that Kael'thas united the scattered High Elves, most of them. By this he actually rose to the leadership of High Elves, who then renamed themselves to Blood Elves. From my point of view this means, that High Elves as a nation and political structure became Blood Elves. There is no High Elf nation anymore to be part of Alliance, there are only individuals.

You missed my point completely. I'm not saying anyone should leave anything. Land belongs to whomever conquers it. KrazyK923 is trying to say Orcs have no claim to the land and should leave the planet because they are immigrants. This is hypocritical because EVERYONE is an immigrant. But only the Orcs should leave?

Okay, but your post wasn't clear about it... Land belongs to whomever conquers it, that's true, but one then cannot be surprised when the original owner comes and wants it back. And not everyone is immigrant, every race has it's point of origin, which is irrefutably theirs. On the scale of Azeroth, the only immigrants are Orcs and Draenei, but the latter are satisfied with the lands they own...

EDIT: By this I don't want to justify relocating Orcs back to Outland, only that their claim here is somewhat lesser. They helped us here, they deserve to be here, but they don't have the right to conquer other inhabited lands, when there is so much free land to take still...

[khalltusk]

Yeah well if I were horde, I'd vote for you bro! If they only moved to those places and return to their shamanistic ways, I don't think anyone would mind. Perhaps the centaurs... but pfff who cares about those hahaha.

Centaurs need to be put to the sword. filthy beasts, nearly wiped out the friendly Tauren. with Desolace secured I could use the link between there and mulgore. I'd allow Durotar to be used and orgrimmar will be reduced to a port town and military training center. no use in completely abandoning it. Barrens would be secured and ashenvale would be free from lumber operations. we'd focus on feralas operations but i'd ensure the druids and shamans plant trees after harvesting them and use some sort of growth spell to replace ones cut down. thus ensuring we dont squander resources.

The elves might moan but they get to keep ashen vale and id move the warsong out of there and send them to ungoro crater. Let em fight and train there, makes for better warriors and allows them to beat up those bloody devilsaurs ;/

[Eats Compost]

The entire Alliance versus Horde war, in its modern incarnation, is incredibly ill-conceived. It's best not to discuss it at length, because the Alliance and Horde being at war is just treated as a given by the writers, rather than something requiring some reasoning behind it. And when Blizzard REALLY needs to create a falling out, they just pull a magical asshole out of their hat, let them do their thing and then kill them off quickly. This is exactly what happened with Garithos and Daelin, and they recently turned Jaina into such a character, minus the killing off part.

[Vaelorian]

So the Orcs protect Azeroth from the Burning Legion invasion and after doing so, should piss off back to a destroyed planet?

The Orcs have earned the right to call a remote, uninhabited land their own on Kalimdor.

How many monkeys do we have on mmochampion? Aquamonkey and now Ultramonkey pretty much asking the same kind of question.

However I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. And I apologize should my mistrust be misplaced.

The orcs are under the leadership of Garrosh, once more not that peaceful are they? If they minded their own business and not try to steal lumber from the Elves or war on Pandaria - or bomb Theramor - I don't think anyone would mind them staying there. But since they are not and want to take what they need by force, hell yes they should get the feck off of Azeroth.

And as my brother Khal has said, they should move base to a more bountyful country. Like Decolace and Feralas. I am sure that small party of Elves wouldn't mind giving that place up to be on friendly terms with the horde right?

[Ultramonkey]

How many monkeys do we have on mmochampion? Aquamonkey and now Ultramonkey pretty much asking the same kind of question.

However I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. And I apologize should my mistrust be misplaced.

The orcs are under the leadership of Garrosh, once more not that peaceful are they? If they minded their own business and not try to steal lumber from the Elves or war on Pandaria - or bomb Theramor - I don't think anyone would mind them staying there. But since they are not and want to take what they need by force, hell yes they should get the feck off of Azeroth.

And as my brother Khal has said, they should move base to a more bountyful country. Like Decolace and Feralas. I am sure that small party of Elves wouldn't mind giving that place up to be on friendly terms with the horde right?

So your suggestion is for them to move to Feralas and piss off the Feathermoon Stronghold instead?

You can claim that Orcs should move but they had already settled in Durotar. From your previous posts you have stated that the Orcs should "go home", a home which no longer exists.

Perhaps the Elves shouldn't overreach, if they can't handle the orcs perhaps they should stay on their little island.

[Aquamonkey]

Yes, they were mutated, but their genetic heritage is nearly the same. What extend of mutation splits one azerothian species into two? Trolls and elves (and naga) are much closer to each other then Elves and Human. But this was one crazy thought I stumbled upon, not the foundation of my reasoning.

Trolls, elves, and naga would be considered different species based on morphology. While the sub-groups of trolls and elves would be the same species.

This is your view. The lore says that Kael'thas united the scattered High Elves, most of them. By this he actually rose to the leadership of High Elves, who then renamed themselves to Blood Elves. From my point of view this means, that High Elves as a nation and political structure became Blood Elves. There is no High Elf nation anymore to be part of Alliance, there are only individuals.

Yes, the High Elves as a nation and political structure became Blood Elves. But the High Elves as a cultural heritage (not becoming magic vampires) kept the same name.

Okay, but your post wasn't clear about it... Land belongs to whomever conquers it, that's true, but one then cannot be surprised when the original owner comes and wants it back. And not everyone is immigrant, every race has it's point of origin, which is irrefutably theirs. On the scale of Azeroth, the only immigrants are Orcs and Draenei, but the latter are satisfied with the lands they own...

EDIT: By this I don't want to justify relocating Orcs back to Outland, only that their claim here is somewhat lesser. They helped us here, they deserve to be here, but they don't have the right to conquer other inhabited lands, when there is so much free land to take still...

Just because a race developed in a region, doesn't give them unassailable rights to the land. If someone comes and kicks them off, it becomes the aggressor's land.

Orcs have as much right to conquer inhabited lands as everyone else has throughout the history of Azeroth. The Alliance was still doing it to the Trolls in WC3 when they invaded the Darkspear Islands.

[Deleted]

The Problem with the Orcs is, they want all of Kalimdor for them selves or for the Horde.

In fact it is the Orc War Chief who is doing all the war mongering, and the Orcs are following him undoubtedly. If it were Carine / Baine or even Vul Jin instead of Garrosh, the relations between the Allies and the Horde would be much better.

[yetgdhfgh]

The Problem with the Orcs is, they want all of Kalimdor for them selves or for the Horde.

In fact it is the Orc War Chief who is doing all the war mongering, and the Orcs are following him undoubtedly. If it were Carine / Baine or even Vul Jin instead of Garrosh, the relations between the Allies and the Horde would be much better.

All the orcs are doing is what human empire builders have been doing for thousands of years

The Mongols, The persians, The romans, The ottomans, The British etc

Every Civilization has there empire builders and the Orcs are no different

[Ultramonkey]

The Problem with the Orcs is, they want all of Kalimdor for them selves or for the Horde.

In fact it is the Orc War Chief who is doing all the war mongering, and the Orcs are following him undoubtedly. If it were Carine / Baine or even Vul Jin instead of Garrosh, the relations between the Allies and the Horde would be much better.

There is no problem with the Orcs, the problem lies with the people who instigated a war when the Orcs were trying to settle peacefully in Durotar.

[Aquamonkey]

How many monkeys do we have on mmochampion? Aquamonkey and now Ultramonkey pretty much asking the same kind of question.

However I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. And I apologize should my mistrust be misplaced.

The orcs are under the leadership of Garrosh, once more not that peaceful are they? If they minded their own business and not try to steal lumber from the Elves or war on Pandaria - or bomb Theramor - I don't think anyone would mind them staying there. But since they are not and want to take what they need by force, hell yes they should get the feck off of Azeroth.

And as my brother Khal has said, they should move base to a more bountyful country. Like Decolace and Feralas. I am sure that small party of Elves wouldn't mind giving that place up to be on friendly terms with the horde right?

The main problem I have with your argument (and it may just be your wording) is that you assert that the aggressive, warmongering orcs should remove themselves. Like how does that make sense? They are pillaging and conquering, they have no reason to just fuck off.

I think what you mean to say is that they should be stopped and forcibly removed? Because that makes more sense than "RAWR we invade your lands! Oh, you don't like it? We're sorry. We must go now, our planet needs us."

They did try to live peacefully in Durotar under Thrall. Daelin attacked them.

Also, this from TOW right after Thrall founded Orgrimmar:

Thrall stared. The draenei? The Prophet Velen? Here?
He sank slowly in his chair as the full significance struck him.
The worst enemy the orcs had ever known had come to Azeroth. Had been welcomed into the Alliance.
How could there possibly be peace between Horde and Alliance now?

[khalltusk]

So your suggestion is for them to move to Feralas and piss off the Feathermoon Stronghold instead?

You can claim that Orcs should move but they had already settled in Durotar. From your previous posts you have stated that the Orcs should "go home", a home which no longer exists.

Perhaps the Elves shouldn't overreach, if they can't handle the orcs perhaps they should stay on their little island.

It was my suggestion, i'm alliance player as of now but if you cut me i'd bleed horde.

Move to desolace, use feralas as a lumber post. Use the druids and shaman to replant and regrow cut down trees so we dont waste and destroy the land. The warsong ordered to move from ashenvale so we don't cause much conflict with the elves. They can either control orgrimmar as a strong hold port town on our east coast (if they dont do it another group of orc soldiers will) That or the warsong move to ungoro crater and establish a base there. They can use that place as a training ground for their troops. Its a harsh area plenty of resources and plenty of strong animals to tame or fight.

The goblins would have to clean up their operations (basically getting our shaman and druids to keep an eye on them to ensure they dont go over board) The only issue with desolace is the centaur. Its simple they either get put to the sword if they attack us or we strong arm them into the horde. Same with the quilboar in the barrens we give them 2 choices. Either join the horde and be apart of us, or stay out of our way any attacks on our people will result in us wiping you off the map 0 tolerance on that one.

With this we both have the resources we need and we also eliminate two really annoying issues.

---------- Post added 2013-02-15 at 11:58 AM ----------

The main problem I have with your argument (and it may just be your wording) is that you assert that the aggressive, warmongering orcs should remove themselves. Like how does that make sense? They are pillaging and conquering, they have no reason to just fuck off.

I think what you mean to say is that they should be stopped and forcibly removed? Because that makes more sense than "RAWR we invade your lands! Oh, you don't like it? We're sorry. We must go now, our planet needs us."

They did try to live peacefully in Durotar under Thrall. Daelin attacked them.

Also, this from TOW right after Thrall founded Orgrimmar:

That last bit about thrall wheres that from tides of war? Thats pretty awesome.

[yetgdhfgh]

Jaina and her ilk shouldve fucked off back to the eastern kingdoms after the third war instead her people try to muscle in on newly founded orc terrortory

Infact why didnt the humans go back i know the northern kingdoms are a plague ridden shithole but im sure they couldve found someplace nice elsewhere

Yeah lets build a keep next to the Orc capital that makes sense

At least the Nelfs can say the land was once theres but fuck those tree hugging hippies

All joking aside my point is humans are just as guilty as orcs when it comes to expansionism

[Vaelorian]

I think you two monkeys should just open up to reason. "the horde does what it wants"- attitude is what I expect from Garrosh and his followers, not from people on this forum.

I already explained how it should be done and what either side would gain. If you're not interested in truly understanding my posts, fine. Please do not react to mine again. Clearly you are not intending to understanding anything. Trying to find loopholes which I didn't cover cause you want me to specify in detail what needs to happen etc... is not what I am writing for in this thread. I could write it that way, but I guess I would have written a book by the time I was done to properly cover all details why and how such a thing would go. Instead you could just read my posts and understand what I am trying to say. Whilst I completely understand that some might disagree with me (we're talking about something hypothetical anyway) - atleast understand where I am coming from. Clearly you don't even when others say the same thing.

[Deleted]

There is no problem with the Orcs, the problem lies with the people who instigated a war when the Orcs were trying to settle peacefully in Durotar.

Jaina helped Thrall and the Orcs defeat those people, if it were not for her Daelin would have obliterated them. If the Orc's really wanted peace they could have obtained it by not making a mess out of Alliance Territories.. Alterac / Ashenvale

Although it is difficult to blame Thrall, he wanted to assure the survival of his race. Garrosh on the other hand is a completely different category.

[Ultramonkey]

I think you two monkeys should just open up to reason. "the horde does what it wants"- attitude is what I expect from Garrosh and his followers, not from people on this forum.

I already explained how it should be done and what either side would gain. If you're not interested in truly understanding my posts, fine. Please do not react to mine again. Clearly you are not intending to understanding anything. Trying to find loopholes which I didn't cover cause you want me to specify in detail what needs to happen etc... is not what I am writing for in this thread. I could write it that way, but I guess I would have written a book by the time I was done to properly cover all details why and how such a thing would go. Instead you could just read my posts and understand what I am trying to say. Whilst I completely understand that some might disagree with me (we're talking about something hypothetical anyway) - atleast understand where I am coming from. Clearly you don't even when others say the same thing.

Because all your posts are saying is "Orcs are acting like dicks under their current leader, so they should pack up and leave their home for a destroyed planet.".

Why would they uproot from the lives they built just because the Alliance don't like what they are doing. Members of the Alliance have constantly been attacking the Orcs, even when they were seeking peace.

[Aquamonkey]

I think you two monkeys should just open up to reason. "the horde does what it wants"- attitude is what I expect from Garrosh and his followers, not from people on this forum.

I already explained how it should be done and what either side would gain. If you're not interested in truly understanding my posts, fine. Please do not react to mine again. Clearly you are not intending to understanding anything. Trying to find loopholes which I didn't cover cause you want me to specify in detail what needs to happen etc... is not what I am writing for in this thread. I could write it that way, but I guess I would have written a book by the time I was done to properly cover all details why and how such a thing would go. Instead you could just read my posts and understand what I am trying to say. Whilst I completely understand that some might disagree with me (we're talking about something hypothetical anyway) - atleast understand where I am coming from. Clearly you don't even when others say the same thing.

"If the Orcs are so decent as they (and a lot of players here do) claim - they should have the common decency to do just that. Go back home and be happy. So who is going to make them? They make themselves go. Presumably we cannot make them go away." (Vaelorian)

I most definitely read your position correctly. You want the Orcs to self-deport. That makes no sense and you contradict yourself when you said, "If they minded their own business and not try to steal lumber from the Elves or war on Pandaria - or bomb Theramor - I don't think anyone would mind them staying there." (Vaelorian).

Wouldn't living in peace show that they are decent? You wouldn't have a problem with them staying under these conditions, but you say they should and would self-deport.

In the case where the orcs are belligerent, you have a problem with them being around. But they would never self-deport in this state of mind.

[eLiTe_J_]

yes gentlemen, that IS an orc.

[yetgdhfgh]

yes gentlemen, that IS an orc.

The Soul of an Orc but he needs a human host to become the lich king

though im sure any host will do but humans seem to be the most gullible lol

[Ultramonkey]

yes gentlemen, that IS an orc.

Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't Archimonde, Kil'Jaeden and Velen of the same species?

[Rend Blackhand]

If the orcs were never there:

-The Darkspear Trolls would have been wipes out by the Sea Wtch and her forces
-The Tauren would have been finished by the Centaur
-The world would have ended because no battle for Mount hyjal

Its the reason we had to make sure the dark portal was opened in caverns of time