Harder Content = Better?

[Deleted]

I don't think LFR saved the game. I think LFR was a bandaid fix that will blow up in their face soon.

Do you really think anyone can enjoy LFR + dailies for an extended amount of time?

It's like watching the same movie over and over (for months). How will this not bore players to death?

[judgementofantonidas]

Wait Cata heroics were hard? -_- I mean not to sound mean but honestly the first week into Cata the tank/healer and other 2 dps I was playing with at the time started to chain pull Cata Heroics. They were not that hard at all and that's being serious.

no no, having to do anything but rush through and collect your lootz is hard. very hard. the moral majority will soon tell you.

[Anjerith]

When Naxx first came out, you had the option of grinding the *hell* out of undead and Strat for tokens to turn in until you got enough rep to be let in for free, or you were a very wealthy player and you could buy your way in. And I don't mean through a better off Guild or player, I mean you had to trade a bunch of pretty valuable materials to get attuned.

When you got inside, you had to unlock the recipes for Frost Resist, something that was almost totally useless for a lot of people because *they didn't get past Anub*.

Does hard mean better content? Not really, they are actually very much unrelated. No matter how difficult Blizzard tunes their game, we are at a point where players will see it as easy. Why? Easy availability of youtube videos showing a single attempt first kill of bosses. These are not the actual first attempts, and in many, many cases they are a compilation of a few dozen (sometimes many more) tries minus the heartache, recriminations and general buffoonery that results in wipes. Those don't make good tv, so we don't see them in videos. There is also the wonderful syndrome everyone gets where once a boss has been beaten once by SOMEONE, suddenly the content is easy and has been cleared by everyone.

I would say that a greater variety of content is far better than simply designing a raid to be unfairly tuned. Because that is what you are really asking for; bosses that hit too hard, have absurdly tuned mechanics and are otherwise punishing for the sheer fact that they can be. I see the appeal of that, hell, I loved original Naxx, original Faction Champions (with their triple berserking ways) and By God I even loved all the hurdles I had to get through to get to Algalon.

Very few people like any of that. As much on a pedestal as we put "hardcore" raiders, eventually those people also develop responsibilities outside of the game and that is when the game stops being fun after your third eight hour night in a row. It is completely possible to design to be challenging, but not requires a crapload of time investment just to unlock the ability to even have a reasonable go at a boss. Limited attempts is really the best way I have seen in terms of making an encounter actually matter, however, I have always thought they gave people way too much leeway in terms of attempt counts.

However, the most reasonable thing we can get is a variety of content, released with shorter breaks in-between. MoP is doing a fair job with this. We are at a point where everyone has done Normals, but most have not done Heroics. If you have reached 90, you have LFR'd and seen the entire tier in some form or another. I very, very seriously doubt that even a double digit percentage of the playerbase has put anything into challenge modes yet. Many have done the dailies out of a false sense that it was necessary. But there is still plenty to do to keep us occupied. There is *no* reason to artificially decrease the number of people that are raiding, you think your weeding out bads? What if one of those LFR players is actually a great player that simply is having a difficult time finding their way in the game? All of us were that guy at some point. By just making it impossible for him/her due to "wanting to be special snowflakes" we are cutting down a raid-worthy population that really does not need to be cut down more than it has.

[judgementofantonidas]

I don't think LFR saved the game. I think LFR was a bandaid fix that will blow up in their face soon.

Do you really think anyone can enjoy LFR + dailies for an extended amount of time?

It's like watching the same movie over and over (for months). How will this not bore players to death?

I think that allowing items to be upgraded was a nice touch. A near invisible nerf to content that was acceptable by many players. I think however that the upgrading process as well as reforging should have more user choice. In other words you should be given the choice to change the numbers within the total point allowance of that piece the way you see fit. In other words allow people to screw up and learn.

[Deleted]

I don't think LFR saved the game If anything I think LFR made things worse. Interestingly enough though I was having this conversation with a friend the other day and we were talking about how they should bring back attunements now that LFR is here.

I personally think that normal mode should be difficult, not impossible, but considerably harder than LFR. Also, much like how in this tier you couldn't move onto HoF if you hadn't killed Will of the Emperor on Normal and how could couldn't move to Terrace if you hadn't killed Sha of Fear, They should extend that onto Throne of Thunder, not being able to enter if you haven't at least killed Sha of Fear on Normal mode. However, to make it more "alt friendly" it should be an account wide attunement.

Now you may argue this will "hurt the casual" playerbase, I would argue that they have LFR (to which the attunement wouldn't exist and would be ilvl based ONLY). If anything, this would allow Blizzard to not nerf the content quickly, if at all for the casuals (Unless of course the fight is broken beyond being killed) and this would in turn make the content "harder" and more challenging while the whole player base has the opportunity to "see the content".

[judgementofantonidas]

I don't think LFR saved the game If anything I think LFR made things worse. Interestingly enough though I was having this conversation with a friend the other day and we were talking about how they should bring back attunements now that LFR is here.

I personally think that normal mode should be difficult, not impossible, but considerably harder than LFR. Also, much like how in this tier you couldn't move onto HoF if you hadn't killed Will of the Emperor on Normal and how could couldn't move to Terrace if you hadn't killed Sha of Fear, They should extend that onto Throne of Thunder, not being able to enter if you haven't at least killed Sha of Fear on Normal mode. However, to make it more "alt friendly" it should be an account wide attunement.

Now you may argue this will "hurt the casual" playerbase, I would argue that they have LFR (to which the attunement wouldn't exist and would be ilvl based ONLY). If anything, this would allow Blizzard to not nerf the content quickly, if at all for the casuals (Unless of course the fight is broken beyond being killed) and this would in turn make the content "harder" and more challenging while the whole player base has the opportunity to "see the content".

Very well thought out and written statement.

[cidic]

I don't think LFR saved the game. I think LFR was a bandaid fix that will blow up in their face soon.

Do you really think anyone can enjoy LFR + dailies for an extended amount of time?

It's like watching the same movie over and over (for months). How will this not bore players to death?

LFR has been boring since about the second week into the current Tier (second week after unlock for each part not second week in general) There is absolutely zero skill involved in it. If you don't interrupt something "eh oh well I'll take some sorta of hp hit and the healers can just heal me" That's the exact attitude I've seen in every LFR I've run (and I run them for quick VP outside of that meh)

LFR+Dailies together is going to get old it already is old for that matter yet outside of running chain heroics (which at the same time are old and stupid easy so easy I can sleep in 99% of them and still clear them in 15 minutes) it's sometimes the fastest way to cap VP each week so people do it.

[judgementofantonidas]

LFR has been boring since about the second week into the current Tier (second week after unlock for each part not second week in general) There is absolutely zero skill involved in it. If you don't interrupt something "eh oh well I'll take some sorta of hp hit and the healers can just heal me" That's the exact attitude I've seen in every LFR I've run (and I run them for quick VP outside of that meh)

LFR+Dailies together is going to get old it already is old for that matter yet outside of running chain heroics (which at the same time are old and stupid easy so easy I can sleep in 99% of them and still clear them in 15 minutes) it's sometimes the fastest way to cap VP each week so people do it.

I actually support fail FFR groups. Quickest valor in the world coming into an LFR group that imploded at the last boss.

[cidic]

I actually support fail FFR groups. Quickest valor in the world coming into an LFR group that imploded at the last boss.

I don't mind going into a quick LFR at the last boss hell half the time I PRAY for that to happen. I've gotten to the point that I run LFR Tuesday on reset as the servers come up. Personal experience day of reset first day or so is the best time to run LFR and get them done quick and fast with players that KNOW wtf they are doing and have zero wipes. Last week I was actually to busy to do LFR on my priest till the last 2 days before reset.... WORST experience I've ever had that week. Got into the first half of MSV and wiped 3 times on Stone Guard due to tanks not knowing how to taunt dogs and healers not healing cause they were to busy being q'd as healers but went dps before the fight -_- (honestly hate that)

[Crashdummy]

Normal raiding needs a queuable system like LFR, but I doubt Blizzard will do that seeing as they get people seeing their raids through LFR already.

I disagree with this. Queue systems have the neccesity if making the content too much easier than coordinated groups.

The only thing Normal raiding needs is Blizzard nerfing a couple of bosses that are blocking THOUSANDS of guilds. HoF needs to have its difficulty lowered.

[judgementofantonidas]

I don't mind going into a quick LFR at the last boss hell half the time I PRAY for that to happen. I've gotten to the point that I run LFR Tuesday on reset as the servers come up. Personal experience day of reset first day or so is the best time to run LFR and get them done quick and fast with players that KNOW wtf they are doing and have zero wipes. Last week I was actually to busy to do LFR on my priest till the last 2 days before reset.... WORST experience I've ever had that week. Got into the first half of MSV and wiped 3 times on Stone Guard due to tanks not knowing how to taunt dogs and healers not healing cause they were to busy being q'd as healers but went dps before the fight -_- (honestly hate that)

I actually wasnt being sarcastic. Failed groups at the last boss equals an easy fist full of valor. Yes tuesdays are the best time to run. Low que times and better quality of people queing. Sundays can be very rough..............

[Otimus]

First, your opinion that the for lack of a less offending term trouble makers in queable content being as low as 4% is laughable but alright.

I agree that any queable system should include a vote kick feature that is not limited by an imposted time limit of any kind and requires a fair majority to initiate. For instance if you are in a group that has six players from a guild their vote is counted as one against the other four players and if they lose the vote which they should if one of theirs is the problem child then they are all removed to stop inevitable trolling.

Unsure why a full ten man group would need the ability to que unless for the teleport to the instance which blizz seems to think is "bad".

---------- Post added 2013-02-25 at 08:12 AM ----------



you seem to be the only one lobbing insults. you have posted nothing really usefull to this thread since my first post (today). not even your normal "my opinion is right because I speak for the people people people. (maybe some more echos in there)

I do not agree with you because (place reason here) is an example of a statment meant to continue the conversation while expressing your opinion.

You are an (insult) because your opinion differs from mine is an example of an insult.

What the hell? You basically lobbed insults this whole thread, and at MOST, I called you a jackass when you were being a condescending elitist jerk. I may have brought up things that basically were "A minority does this, you can't focus on a minority", where you did the confused-dog-head-tilt, and pretty much brushed it off as not being true, because it's not true for YOU. Seemingly only caring about your guild, yourself, and like activities of other guilds, and people like yourself.


"Took my alt DK through first part of HOF raid finder yesterday. On Garalon ended up being myself and the other tank with a couple of healers left burning down the last two legs and killing him. There was a great uproar of "GJ!" to which I just couldn't help from responding "not really, why are you people even here?"."


"LFR is not a difficulty level it is a circus full of afk players, trolls, and the occasional competant player just looking for come quick valor and a possible downgraded tier peice to complete their set."


"I am not stating that EVERYONE is a scrub, window licker, choose your poison. I am stating that too high of a percentage are to make it worth the while of the few competant players who MIGHT choose to help smooth the way for those who struggle at the meaningless content."


"Ok. let me ask you this. Why would you take a pug player into your guild raid who did not already know the fights, that you would have to waste time teaching the fights, and that would then take that knowledge back to their respective guild and help them progress?"


"Cataclysm was very good for organized guilds. It destroyed the opposite. There is no benefit to bringing a competing guild up to your level. If they remain below you eventually some of their players will choose to move. THEN you recruit and teach them how you do things."

"Why do players incapable of grasping very simple game mechanics insist that there must be some watered down version for them to muddle about in if they do not desire to be raiders?"

"I could even more fully support LFR if it was what Blizzard said it would be and was only a LOOK at what raiding is, but again it is not becuase it drops gear and watered down tier gear at that once again dragging the raiders back into the picture to try and more quickly get their set bonuses while building up animosity towards the segment of players who cannot even hadle raid finder difficulty."

"Some of the trolls supporting degrading all content to the point my cat could poke the keyboard and play successfully should apply to be moderators with the power they seem to think they weild here."

"yeah. and take the first 9 people that raise thier hands in a clinic for downs syndrome to play two hand touch football and see how you make out. either is a completely ludicrous approach at testing the theory that easymode content is easy."

"LFR............. ACHIEVMENT................... brain hurts"

"Soon as you have a reliable system for excluding the inevitable turds that will float to the top as in the current LFR system."

"no no, having to do anything but rush through and collect your lootz is hard. very hard. the moral majority will soon tell you."

Then there's nonsensical things like this which have nothing to do with anything :x

"Stating that having one level 90 toon puts you in a minority cannot be true when the majority of players just in my guild alone have at least 5 by now."

"By defenition a game presents challenges."

"You are absolutley correct. I would find no challenge involved in collecting farm animals and rearanging my furniture. I am however much older than three."


Clearly, you are an upstanding and nice guy, and I'm just lobbing on the insults unfairly! You don't belittle people AT ALL!

If you don't think you've been condescending and insulting and just outright rude, and only -I- have, I don't know what to tell you. It almost seems like english isn't your first language, but that can't be true :x

[Triggered Fridgekin]

It's more rewarding in the long run. Unfortunately, most players want everything now, now, now or will throw a fit for having to work for it.

Incoming "I have eight jobs and forty kids so I don't have time for that" posts.

[judgementofantonidas]

I disagree with this. Queue systems have the neccesity if making the content too much easier than coordinated groups.

The only thing Normal raiding needs is Blizzard nerfing a couple of bosses that are blocking THOUSANDS of guilds. HoF needs to have its difficulty lowered.

HOF is kind of nuts considering how much easier terrace is. I had he oppurtunty to share a lockout on terrace with a freind and did first boss of terrace. three pulls done. Took us four weeks to get past ambershaper and the only reason we got him was that on the kill he desided to reshape the same person every time in phase two and she just happened to be the one player in guild voted least likely to screw up.

[Otimus]

I don't think LFR saved the game. I think LFR was a bandaid fix that will blow up in their face soon.

Do you really think anyone can enjoy LFR + dailies for an extended amount of time?

It's like watching the same movie over and over (for months). How will this not bore players to death?

Isn't that still more than what people have had to do otherwise if they didn't raid? That's generally been the problem for a while now. If you don't raid, there's essentially nothing to do... and most people don't raid. So, I guess they could either make more compelling non-raid content, or they could try and get everyone into raiding. So they chose the latter.

[cidic]

I disagree with this. Queue systems have the neccesity if making the content too much easier than coordinated groups.

The only thing Normal raiding needs is Blizzard nerfing a couple of bosses that are blocking THOUSANDS of guilds. HoF needs to have its difficulty lowered.

HoF difficulty is fine -_- (and I'm talking normal mode not heroic) Garalon (IMO) is not that hard of a boss Amber-Shaper is harder just for the fact that it requires people at RANDOM to get turned and they have to not only interrupt themselves but also the add that comes out as well (which a lot of people fail at) Do I think it needs to e nerfed? No but I do however think the mechanics of it are fin stupid. To many things that CAN go wrong and 9 times out of 10 they do -_-

[judgementofantonidas]

It's more rewarding in the long run. Unfortunately, most players want everything now, now, now or will throw a fit for having to work for it.

Incoming "I have eight jobs and forty kids so I don't have time for that" posts.

your logic is flawed. a playe with 40 kids would have enough food stamps to buy the best gaming rig and have their kids farm gold to sell for cash to avoid needing to work.

[cidic]

I actually wasnt being sarcastic. Failed groups at the last boss equals an easy fist full of valor. Yes tuesdays are the best time to run. Low que times and better quality of people queing. Sundays can be very rough..............

lol I know you were not man it's all good I was agreeing with you on getting into the last boss I pray for it 90% of the time after wednesday. I didn't take it that way at all. And yeah Sundays..... lets just not mention them ok? lol

---------- Post added 2013-02-25 at 05:50 AM ----------

Isn't that still more than what people have had to do otherwise if they didn't raid? That's generally been the problem for a while now. If you don't raid, there's essentially nothing to do... and most people don't raid. So, I guess they could either make more compelling non-raid content, or they could try and get everyone into raiding. So they chose the latter.

What they honestly should do is go back to the Cata model of Heroics where you could cap in a day by running chains. Sadly they considered that "To much like a job"

[Crashdummy]

I don't think LFR saved the game If anything I think LFR made things worse. Interestingly enough though I was having this conversation with a friend the other day and we were talking about how they should bring back attunements now that LFR is here.

I personally think that normal mode should be difficult, not impossible, but considerably harder than LFR. Also, much like how in this tier you couldn't move onto HoF if you hadn't killed Will of the Emperor on Normal and how could couldn't move to Terrace if you hadn't killed Sha of Fear, They should extend that onto Throne of Thunder, not being able to enter if you haven't at least killed Sha of Fear on Normal mode. However, to make it more "alt friendly" it should be an account wide attunement.

Now you may argue this will "hurt the casual" playerbase, I would argue that they have LFR (to which the attunement wouldn't exist and would be ilvl based ONLY). If anything, this would allow Blizzard to not nerf the content quickly, if at all for the casuals (Unless of course the fight is broken beyond being killed) and this would in turn make the content "harder" and more challenging while the whole player base has the opportunity to "see the content".

Attunements were one of the worsts things implemented by Blizzard in their game. They were SO BAD that they were one of the only things in the history of WoW that was removed in the same expansion they were introduced. Yes, they were THAT BAD.

Attunements dont give any advantage and its only pupose is to inflate the ego of the special snowflake group.

By the way, you didnt need Will of Emperor to enter Hear of Fear, although you do need Empress to enter Terrace.

Forcing people to run Karazan for 2 years straight for thousands of guilds was not a good design.

[judgementofantonidas]

Isn't that still more than what people have had to do otherwise if they didn't raid? That's generally been the problem for a while now. If you don't raid, there's essentially nothing to do... and most people don't raid. So, I guess they could either make more compelling non-raid content, or they could try and get everyone into raiding. So they chose the latter.

Nothing apperantly means

5 man dungeons
Quests
PvP in all it's shapes and sizes
Using professions for profit
Fishing
Non Raid related Achievments
Collecting mounts and pets
POKE MAN
Leveling Alternate toons
Experiencing story lines
Growing turnips
Mining/herbing
Running old content or transmog
Roll playing