How would you like to handle the "gap" between LFR and Normal raiding?

[Deleted]

Geez. How did this thread go from ToT to Stone guards? Did you realise you lost the arguments about T15 so now you have to attack T14 or what?

Really cba writing anymore. You guys are unbelievable. Not gonna allow you to drag me down to your level again.

<flies away>

[Deleted]

Geez. How did this thread go from ToT to Stone guards? Did you realise you lost the arguments about T15 so now you have to attack T14 or what?

Really cba writing anymore. You guys are unbelievable. Not gonna allow you to drag me down to your level again.

<flies away>

You said that normal mode raids are the perfect training ground for new raiders. The first raid boss anyone will encounter is stone guards.

Which is a terrible, terrible boss to teach people how to raid.

[Nobleshield]

Geez. How did this thread go from ToT to Stone guards? Did you realise you lost the arguments about T15 so now you have to attack T14 or what?

Really cba writing anymore. You guys are unbelievable. Not gonna allow you to drag me down to your level again.

<flies away>

The thread is about the gap between LFR and Normal, so given how many guilds (mine included) had success in Dragon Soul and then couldn't even touch Stone Guard is pretty damning evidence. Still, the point seems to constantly be glossed over that the type of guild we're talking about:

1) Runs with a mix of good/average/below-average players; is almost certainly a 10-man team.
2) Can't be picky about who they bring to a raid; there may be a few "core" raiders but it's usually not a set group
3) Plays with friends/family and doesn't want to kick them to the curb
4) Wants something more organized/challenging than LFR, but right now is getting smashed to bits on early bosses in ToT, and before that got smashed on Stone Guard/Elegon/Garalon in T14.

Saying "Go do LFR" doesn't help this type of guild because LFR lets you ignore too many things that would kill you in Normal, and you have to play with 15 other randoms so you lose that close-knit "Let's get on vent, have some fun, down some bosses and make progress on that tough boss we can't beat yet" feel. Saying "It's fine, get better and l2p" doesn't help either because these people are probably trying their best but might have a little slow reaction times, or not theorycraft every little bit of DPS, or not want to tell Bob that he can't raid with them anymore, when he's been a loyal member of the guild for years and has always been able to raid with his friends, because the content now doesn't allow for him to be a bit slower at moving out of fire or being average at his DPS priority, and that's stopping everyone else from killing the boss.

So again, what is the option left for these people?

[Deleted]

So again, what is the option left for these people?

L2P or LFR. If there's no challenge, there's no reason to get better, and eventually no reason to play because there is nothing to look forward to. Worst thing you can do is make it too easy. It's in the sub drops, few players want to farm same raid over and over again after clearing (most of) it in reset or two.

[alfaqup]

You said that normal mode raids are the perfect training ground for new raiders. The first raid boss anyone will encounter is stone guards.

Which is a terrible, terrible boss to teach people how to raid.

Stone Guards is a perfect boss to teach people how to raid, A taunt mechanic, a don't stand in stuff mechanic, and a mechanic that causes a few seconds of burst healing that is very predictable. People playing properly not much raid damage till overload, the taunt mechanic is super simple when you spend 30 seconds thinking about it, and don't stand in stuff is the simplest of all.

[Nobleshield]

Stone Guards is a perfect boss to teach people how to raid, A taunt mechanic, a don't stand in stuff mechanic, and a mechanic that causes a few seconds of burst healing that is very predictable. People playing properly not much raid damage till overload, the taunt mechanic is super simple when you spend 30 seconds thinking about it, and don't stand in stuff is the simplest of all.

Speaking as a former tank the issue with Stone Guard was the extra taunt needed to avoid 2x Overloads. If it had just been a single swap (e.g. MT taunts the OT's dog, OT taunts one of the MT's dogs if the OT's dog starts to petrify) it would have been fine. But at launch at least you had to do a second taunt at some point during the fight to avoid the MT's second dog doing an Overload and killing people, and with having to move all over god's green earth to avoid the mines and amethyst pools you could end up with one tank on the opposite side of the room (happened to me quite a few times from moving, I'd be by the stairs you come down from while the other tank was by where the dogs start, and it was near impossible to get back to him in time to taunt swap). It was a bit too hectic for an entry-level boss; it needed a bit less stuff going on at once.

[Deleted]

Stone Guards is a perfect boss to teach people how to raid, A taunt mechanic, a don't stand in stuff mechanic, and a mechanic that causes a few seconds of burst healing that is very predictable. People playing properly not much raid damage till overload, the taunt mechanic is super simple when you spend 30 seconds thinking about it, and don't stand in stuff is the simplest of all.

Back in realiyy, here is how a brand new team of people would approach SG (after levelling from 1-90 without ever being challenged.)

1) Wipe on trash. A lot.
2) Pull SG. Die instantly. Say wtf a lot.
3) Pull Sg again. Again, die almost instantly.
4) Someone googles how to do it.
5) Pull SG again. Ofc, the explanation and the reality of the pull have a gap, so it's wipe time once more.
6) Another 20 or so wipes before maybe getting the tank stuff down ok. (This assumes they are going to sit there and learn for this length of time, which is pretty unlikely if we assume sane people.)
7) Finally get the tank stuff down, die to oom or lack of dps. Wtf is reforging? Gems? huh? etc

SG is a fucking awful first ever raid boss.

[Deleted]

Wotlk style.
What was success back then?
Guilds.
How many guild and how many now.

Game is dumbed at the point people are left alone without guilds.
Raiding guild's atm at 20k and descreasing.

In terms ...10=25 man we saw....an 80%90%????? descrease in Guild population/PLayer's population

How will end?
Either your gonna do Lfr either your gonna play for Method.

[HeedmySpeed]

I wish the game focused more on "L2P" than "L2Cryforblizzardtonerf."

Like replacing a daily with another daily that makes you hit a certain DPS on a dummy depending on your class. Not a perfect rotation but something to get players thinking about it.
Because really I don't see how players get through even Normals without a meter addon.

[Osmeric]

I wish the game focused more on "L2P" than "L2Cryforblizzardtonerf."

That worked really well for GC back at the start of Cataclysm, didn't it?

[Azureqt]

take out LFR... please...

[Deleted]

That worked really well for GC back at the start of Cataclysm, didn't it?

Dumbing down the gameplay isn't a long term solution either. Players need something to look up for, some goal to reach. Instant gratification and minimum effort maximum reward model should exist only in Facebook and mobile games.

[HeedmySpeed]

That worked really well for GC back at the start of Cataclysm, didn't it?

Because nerfing shit to the ground is working oh so well now, right?

[Crashdummy]

Wotlk style.
What was success back then?
Guilds.
How many guild and how many now.

Game is dumbed at the point people are left alone without guilds.
Raiding guild's atm at 20k and descreasing.

In terms ...10=25 man we saw....an 80%90%????? descrease in Guild population/PLayer's population

How will end?
Either your gonna do Lfr either your gonna play for Method.

This is wrong. 64k guilds killed Morchok.
42k killed Stone Guards, 25k killed Jinrohk. MoP destroyed Normal guild raiding with its stupid difficulty, 90% of the ones that finished N T14 in time were heroic guilds.

[FobManX]

There are enough difficulty levels. I don't consider the gap between LFR and Normal to be an issue. Normals aren't that bad if you're playing with an organized group. If you want to do normals, join a guild. There shouldn't need to be a difficulty easier than normal.

[Osmeric]

Because nerfing shit to the ground is working oh so well now, right?

Except that's not what they've done.

---------- Post added 2013-05-28 at 03:48 PM ----------

Dumbing down the gameplay isn't a long term solution either. Players need something to look up for, some goal to reach. Instant gratification and minimum effort maximum reward model should exist only in Facebook and mobile games.

This is the mantra of the hardcores, but the evidence is that it's just codswallop without any empirical validity.

[fangless]

What's the point of LFR, if people still complain they can't raid?

This is the mantra of the hardcores, but the evidence is that it's just codswallop without any empirical validity.

How did we even get the playerbase we have then? The early years of this game weren't friendly AT ALL to anyone casual.

[alfaqup]

Back in realiyy, here is how a brand new team of people would approach SG (after levelling from 1-90 without ever being challenged.)

1) Wipe on trash. A lot.
2) Pull SG. Die instantly. Say wtf a lot.
3) Pull Sg again. Again, die almost instantly.
4) Someone googles how to do it.
5) Pull SG again. Ofc, the explanation and the reality of the pull have a gap, so it's wipe time once more.
6) Another 20 or so wipes before maybe getting the tank stuff down ok. (This assumes they are going to sit there and learn for this length of time, which is pretty unlikely if we assume sane people.)
7) Finally get the tank stuff down, die to oom or lack of dps. Wtf is reforging? Gems? huh? etc

SG is a fucking awful first ever raid boss.

And all the people who were in that horrible raid group should be able to go in MSV now with their 502 LFR gear and steam roll that place. I went the other day on my horrible pally tank and we stacked the dogs and killed them easily, arguably easier than LFR. They have their group raid progress yay! Can't be bothered to L2P or L2 mechanics in ToT? Nerfs will be coming in 5.4!

[Osmeric]

What's the point of LFR, if people still complain they can't raid?

Some of us had doubts about LFR right from the beginning. The devs were trying to kill two birds with one stone (people who don't want to raid with a guild, and people who don't want to kick underperforming friends), and are discovering the joint solution is deficient.

[Deleted]

Sigh I put it in my post :P I Bolded it and put it at the top for you TLDR people

They already said they are unhappy and said there is a gap between LFR and Normal, they said they want to do something about it. They will do something. There is no "None of the Above" or "Keep it the way it is" because in the interview you can clearly see they want to do something and plan to do something.

How about making LFR harder to close the gap? that would make most sense, would require people to actually think about wtf they are doing which is how it is in higher tiers..