How would you like to handle the "gap" between LFR and Normal raiding?

[Deleted]

Just out of curiosity. Which normal mode encounter requires boss mod / VOIP?

TBH you can do normals just fine with few say/yell/rw macros and boss mods are not really a must if you know the fight. However, timers are still useful for maximizing dps or anticipating damage.

So, not required, but helpful.

[Deleted]

TBH you can do normals just fine with few say/yell/rw macros and boss mods are not really a must if you know the fight. However, timers are still useful for maximizing dps or anticipating damage.

So, not required, but helpful.

For example a friend of mine used to play in world top 20-30 guilds in WotLK and Cata. He did not use any boss mods at all. He listens to the boss sounds, since basically every boss ability is tied together with a boss sound. So he was just listening for abilities.

[Deleted]

For example a friend of mine used to play in world top 20-30 guilds in WotLK and Cata. He did not use any boss mods at all. He listens to the boss sounds, since basically every boss ability is tied together with a boss sound. So he was just listening for abilities.

Exactly what are you trying to prove? Gotta disagree if you are trying to say that timers are useless.

[Deleted]

Exactly what are you trying to prove? Gotta disagree if you are trying to say that timers are useless.

Not saying they are useless. Just hearing so much that Boss mods / VOIP is required for normal mode raiding. I am wondering for which bosses this is so.

[Ferocity]

For example a friend of mine used to play in world top 20-30 guilds in WotLK and Cata. He did not use any boss mods at all. He listens to the boss sounds, since basically every boss ability is tied together with a boss sound. So he was just listening for abilities.

I wanna see how can you predict direction of attenuation on HoF 1st boss by sound, Overwhelming Strike on HoF 2nd boss, the whole horrible dance thing in MSV last boss, Horridon's Triple Puncture, and so on. It probably worked well in WotLK, as there was only boss fight which was designed around having DBM - LK (Shadow Traps and Valkyr/Defile timers). But now DBM is a must, as most fights are designed around having such addon, as well as blizzard went overboard with timing and reaction.

[Deleted]

Anyway, in order for your premise to be logically valid, it cannot be invalidated by even a single contradiction; but it is. Heroic guilds are now spending significantly more time per day during the progression race than they ever have, which means your conclusion is dropped to meaninglessness because it doesn't factor this notion in at all.

I'm sorry, I appreciated what you were trying to do and tried to imply that, but you've effectively forced me to point out how bad your piece of work really is with your little "goes against your argument" quip.

The funny thing is that this applies to what you say aswell.

Normal mode raiders are now worse than ever in the same fashion heroic raiders are better than ever. Every single one of your arguments got the same weakness as my arguments, in the end they cant be proven. You can not prove that there is a huge gap in difficulty. And in my opinion you have weaker arguments backing you up. Something like "main developer said" is completely irrelevant, since that is still just his opinion.

You also fail to ignore those factors that matters for your claim.

Shared lockouts
Decline in subscribers
Introduction of LFR
Daily Quests become a main focus
Valor point capping becoming a huge focus

In the end, either side can not be ultimately proven right or wrong.

Your standpoint got more holes in it than a swiss cheese.

[Deleted]

For example a friend of mine used to play in world top 20-30 guilds in WotLK and Cata. He did not use any boss mods at all. He listens to the boss sounds, since basically every boss ability is tied together with a boss sound. So he was just listening for abilities.

These "my friend who is an exception to a rule which otherwise applies to millions" arguments really are getting old.

My mate smoked fags for 60 years, never got cancer. Therefore smoking is fine.
My mate had sex with his wife for 15 years and she never got pregnant, therefore condoms are useless.
My mate won the lottery, therefore everyone can win the lottery.

Etc etc

That there is a gap is indisputable. If you are saying that there is no gap you are (in effect) saying that a group of complete strangers with no enchants, gems, boss mods, leadership or voip can kill normal mode bosses with only 0 - 2 pulls per boss.

Obviously bollocks.

[Deleted]

I wanna see how can you predict direction of attenuation on HoF 1st boss by sound, Overwhelming Strike on HoF 2nd boss, the whole horrible dance thing in MSV last boss, Horridon's Triple Puncture, and so on. It probably worked well in WotLK, as there was only boss fight which was designed around having DBM - LK (Shadow Traps and Valkyr/Defile timers). But now DBM is a must, as most fights are designed around having such addon, as well as blizzard went overboard with timing and reaction.

I did attenuation before addons even determined the direction of the attenuation. I still do not look at addons for that, I use my eyes to see where they go.
Overwhelming assault could also be predicted. But if we are talking about normal, you did not need to predict it at all, you could survive without cooldowns up on any tank. For heroic it was a bit trickier, but as said, you could still predict it.
Dance? What about it? I have all my timers turned of for Will. Had since day 1. I do not see any other way of doing it, the boss clearly shows where to move.
While I do have tripple puncture timer on Horridon, I never watch them really. I know when it is coming by feeling. But even if I didn't you can survive normal without hitting your AM for the punctures, especially if you reset your stacks every gate. I can understand if you like me go for 25-30 stacks, but if you reset normally at around 10 stacks you wont need timers anyway.

Again, timers can help. For 2 of your examples there, Will and Vizier, for me, timers would be completely useless and just in the way. For the other 2, timers help, but far from needed.

---------- Post added 2013-05-29 at 03:39 PM ----------

That there is a gap is indisputable. If you are saying that there is no gap you are (in effect) saying that a group of complete strangers with no enchants, gems, boss mods, leadership or voip can kill normal mode bosses with only 0 - 2 pulls per boss.
.

No offense, but give me something of what you have been smoking. I was referring to the claim that VOIP and Boss Mods are required for raiding. To which I referred to a friend of mine that have not been using boss mods and successfully raided in top end heroic guilds.

Noone is arguing that boss mods does not help. Just to say that they are required is an overstatement.

Now go back into your cave.

[Deleted]

Not saying they are useless. Just hearing so much that Boss mods / VOIP is required for normal mode raiding. I am wondering for which bosses this is so.

Pretty much all of them.

For normal people with average levels of skill. You uber men who can do these things by sound or whatnot are irrelevent freaks, as useful to this argument as their bell curve opposites, the players who fuck up logging in.

[Deleted]

Somebody in a world top 20 guild PTR tests and has a working strategy before the boss mods are even correct. Such players typically have a hand in writing the boss mod. ie, not a player this thread has any relevance at all too. I used to be in a fantastic guild with players that read nothing whatsoever beforehand and made our own tactics for our own comp - gl doing that now. You go into any raid without knowing the prewritten tactics now and you'll get ejected.

We get it Firefly, you're a god at this game. Your average normal mode raider isn't. Nothing that applies for you applies to them. These players need to be told to avoid fire, or stack up on mechanics. They need a flashing light in their screen telling them attenuation is coming. And they'll still die to it. You aren't the person anything needs tuned for, so I don't get why it bothers you?

[Deleted]

Pretty much all of them.

For normal people with average levels of skill. You uber men who can do these things by sound or whatnot are irrelevent freaks, as useful to this argument as their bell curve opposites, the players who fuck up logging in.

So please give one example, I would love to hear it.

One boss that is impossible to do without VOIP and/or bossmods on normal mode.

You can keep insulting as much as you want but until you come with something real, your just showing your own inability to have a discussion.

[Deleted]

Somebody in a world top 20 guild PTR tests and has a working strategy before the boss mods are even correct. Such players typically have a hand in writing the boss mod. ie, not a player this thread has any relevance at all too. I used to be in a fantastic guild with players that read nothing whatsoever beforehand and made our own tactics for our own comp - gl doing that now. You go into any raid without knowing the prewritten tactics now and you'll get ejected.

The top 20 raiders also (and i suspect this is where a large part of the problem lies) have a hand in writing the boss fight.

Bizzard rely on feedback from the truly talented to tune a normal mode that those truly talented will only ever see once or twice on live. "Yeah it's fine, really easy" says Johnny Awesome, but his feedback is worthless when it comes to working out appropriate content from Jenny Average.

---------- Post added 2013-05-29 at 04:47 PM ----------

So please give one example, I would love to hear it.

What part of "all of them" is hard to understand?

One boss that is impossible to do without VOIP and/or bossmods on normal mode.

Not the question at hand, and you know this. The existence of a few outliers on the bell curve (freaks) doesn't change the average bell curve.

You can keep insulting as much as you want but until you come with something real, your just showing your own inability to have a discussion.

Freak isn't an insult, it's a description of your rarity. Your results are freakish, unusual. (And therefore completely irrelevent.)

[Deleted]

If you bothered to follow through the conversation you would see that this is the question as hand. Since many people keep complaining that VOIP and BM is required for normals, I asked why, and on which boss. I am still to get an answer.

[Deleted]

If you bothered to follow through the conversation you would see that this is the question as hand. Since many people keep complaining that VOIP and BM is required for normals, I asked why, and on which boss. I am still to get an answer.

All of them, except in a few very rare cases of individual extreme skill.

What part of this is hard to understand?

[Pua]

Just out of curiousity. Which normal mode encounter requires boss mod / VOIP?

For the vast majority of players, pretty much all of them.

And you know that.

Take a look at guild recruitment pages, the absolutely overwhelming majority stipulate that you need to be able to use TS/Ventrilo/Mumble.

Normal mode raiders are now worse than ever in the same fashion heroic raiders are better than ever.

Not sure I agree. I think the gap between the best players and the worst is now at its biggest, but normal mode raiders (at this point) tend to make their way into heroics, or simply give up. Anecdotal, but the numbers half suggest this could be going on.

Every single one of your arguments got the same weakness as my arguments, in the end they cant be proven. You can not prove that there is a huge gap in difficulty.

The evidence already discussed seems to intimate it, VERY heavily, and that's what I'm saying. Such evidence includes lead developers stating that content is now designed to be more complex, the number of people raiding does NOT fall sympathetically with the drop in subscribers, the trend change at the start of Cataclysm, and that all other explanations other than difficulty have been exhausted.

If all you've now got left to fall back on is "BUT U KANT CATGORIKAL PROVE", then your premise has crumbled and it's best you simply accept that fact, and move on.

Something like "main developer said" is completely irrelevant, since that is still just his opinion.

But it's not just his opinion.

Blizzard have the facts on clearance rates, the actual attrition rate of normal-mode guilds and they know the design intent. They have access to this information, as well as analysts to help them understand why it's happening.

You just post meaningless numbers, then can't simply admit that you are wrong.

You're starting to look just a tad silly now.

Shared lockouts
Decline in subscribers
Introduction of LFR
Daily Quests become a main focus
Valor point capping becoming a huge focus

I think there's something in this, and any reasonable analysis has to take these as outliers. That said, yet again, my arguments do consider the majority of this.

Take the Cataclysmic fall at the start of T11, coming from T10:

There was no LFR, dailies weren't a huge focus, and there was a GAIN in subscribers going into that tier. That only leaves us with the shared lockout and valor cap criticism, of which I'd argue only the lockout might have had an impact given the quickest way to get valor was to raid. Then again, considering that the vast majority of guild runs were purely 10-man near the end of WotLK, and that 25-man raiding took a hammering in T11 (with the potential for one 25-man guild to break into three 10-man outfits, or maybe more) attributing the fall to shared lockouts just doesn't make any sense.

So... What are we left with?

In the end, either side can not be ultimately proven right or wrong.

Ah, the faithful last fig leaf for the disproved and disenchanted.

Your standpoint got more holes in it than a swiss cheese.

Would you mind selecting a purchase quickly, please? We're looking to close the shop.

[Deleted]

We get it Firefly, you're a god at this game. Your average normal mode raider isn't. Nothing that applies for you applies to them. These players need to be told to avoid fire, or stack up on mechanics. They need a flashing light in their screen telling them attenuation is coming. And they'll still die to it. You aren't the person anything needs tuned for, so I don't get why it bothers you?

It bothers me in the sense that the more content are being dumbed down, the more players get dumbed down, the harder it become to find decent players to substain your raid team.

Also aswell as nerfs will make my content worse, since we all know that if normals gets nerfed heroics are not far behind. Since then those normal raiders reach heroic and reach a brickwall instantly. The gap between normal and heroic is already far bigger than the gap between LFR and Normal. If that gap was made even bigger to satisfy the crowd of people that cant move out from fire or bother learning the basics of their class, the shitstorm that would arise when they reach that content and cant do it.

I am looking into the future, not into the next week.

[Deleted]

It bothers me in the sense that the more content are being dumbed down, the more players get dumbed down, the harder it become to find decent players to substain your raid team.

Yes,but as most players are never going to improve and don't care, this makes their experience better. Yours degrades, but so what?
If you care, traig people up yourself instead of asking blizzard to do it for you.

Also aswell as nerfs will make my content worse, since we all know that if normals gets nerfed heroics are not far behind. Since then those normal raiders reach heroic and reach a brickwall instantly. The gap between normal and heroic is already far bigger than the gap between LFR and Normal. If that gap was made even bigger to satisfy the crowd of people that cant move out from fire or bother learning the basics of their class, the shitstorm that would arise when they reach that content and cant do it.

Never happened before, won't happen in future. They aren't progression raiders. They don';t think like you do. All they want is something to potter around in so they can have fun with their friends. That's it.

I am looking into the future, not into the next week.

Shame you can't cast a beady on the past, tbh.

[Deleted]

Blizzard have the facts on clearance rates, the actual attrition rate of normal-mode guilds and they know the design intent. They have access to this information, as well as analysts to help them understand why it's happening.

You just post meaningless numbers, then can't simply admit that you are wrong.

You're starting to look just a tad silly now.

So you are dismissing the fact that the clearance rate is far greater (about 300-500%) on normal modes compared to heroic modes.'

Yup, completely me ignoring the numbers.

In my eyes you are the one posting meaningless numbers then cant admit you are wrong.

[Deleted]

So you are dismissing the fact that the clearance rate is far greater (about 300-500%) on normal modes compared to heroic modes.'

Yup, completely me ignoring the numbers.

Oh yeah, you didn't repond to my comment about the gap.

Are you really saying you can get 10 or 25 complete strangers, go to normal modes and kill everything 1 or 2 pulls?

With no boss mods, voip, leadership, gems, chants etc?

it's time to either back a lunatic proposition or admit theres a gap, good buddy.

[Pua]

So you are dismissing the fact that the clearance rate is far greater (about 300-500%) on normal modes compared to heroic modes.'

Dismissing a "fact" that should be self-evident?

You've reached the point in the conversation where you're not actually making an iota of sense.