Why do lesser skilled players feel entitled to see content?

[Dormie]

Why should the personal reasons of a small few effect a huge amount of the player base?

Because the player base is made up of the 'small few'.

[Jtbrig7390]

You can deny it all you like, but you'd still be wrong. There will always be a legion of diehard fans that will stick to the game until it officially dies (if ever), but that number is nowhere close to 8million. Subs will continue to drop as fewer and fewer people come to stay. The ones who left did so for a multitude of different reasons and there is nothing Blizzard can do to bring most of them back. As for the new people, there will be less and less incentive for them to pick WoW above new games. Even if everything reverted to pre-Cataclysm standards, most people would not return and new people will not magically decide to join. It doesn't matter if WoW is an amazing game. There are hundreds of amazing games that are 10, 15, 20 years old that people don't flock to because (guess what) they're old.

Also to add there is a lot more MMO choice's out there that is ether B2p or F2p so why pay 15$ a month on a 10 year old game.

There is many reasons why wow is losing subs and not getting many if any and I have a feeling this mite be one of the main ones.

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Because the player base is made up of the 'small few'.

So now 5% is bigger then 95%????? What world do you live in because I would love to visit it.

And to be clear those are blizzard's numbers "or dam near close" not me assuming.

[Dormie]

So now 5% is bigger then 95%????? What world do you live in because I would love to visit it.

The one where you don't deem a player you don't know into one category or another based on things you don't know.

Blizzards numbers are the super hardcore. Your right they are the minority. But they aren't the only ones against LFR.

[Normie]

But it has to be. If everyone is being steered there how can the have any hope to make it in Normal mode raiding if the aspire to it? 5 Mans used to serve the gear up purpose and teaching players how to properly play. One reason players atleast in TBC were so happy to do Kara and only 5 mans is because the content was not trivial. Seriously. How is ANYONE supposed to learn to play the game before setting foot into raids with the current game design?

Is there anyone that LFR is preventing from normal mode raiding?

Uh, no. LFR only makes it easier for a newbie to raid, by:

* Gearing him
* Familiarizing him with the basics of the environment and encounters
* Doing that in a manner that is self-directed and convenient

Now, if a progression guild can't take someone who wants to raid normal and heroic, who does a good job in LFR, and who has a mature approach to working with others, and make a proper raider out of him, then guess where the problem is?

It's not LFR.
It's not the LFR raider.

If you guys aren't willing to train your new raiders, you will never have any more of them. The game won't do it for you, Blizzard won't do it for you, and no one can solo his way to a spot.

[Deleted]

You can deny it all you like, but you'd still be wrong. There will always be a legion of diehard fans that will stick to the game until it officially dies (if ever), but that number is nowhere close to 8million. Subs will continue to drop as fewer and fewer people come to stay. The ones who left did so for a multitude of different reasons and there is nothing Blizzard can do to bring most of them back. As for the new people, there will be less and less incentive for them to pick WoW above new games. Even if everything reverted to pre-Cataclysm standards, most people would not return and new people will not magically decide to join. It doesn't matter if WoW is an amazing game. There are hundreds of amazing games that are 10, 15, 20 years old that people don't flock to because (guess what) they're old.

The recession and F2P argument is an interesting explanation.

In our modern world of of 24/7 connectivity with mobile phone a game like WoW cannot compete with the non-realtime themepark games such as Farmville. Just like a good ol' PnP game cannot compete with WoW.

Unfortunately there's no proof of either of these explanations. They're just that, unproven theories.

[Jtbrig7390]

The one where you don't deem a player you don't know into one category or another based on things you don't know.

95% of the game is causal's I highly dough its the casual's on here bitching about how there heroic raid group has to do LFR.....

[Dormie]

95% of the game is causal's I highly dough its the casual's on here bitching about how there heroic raid group has to do LFR.....

Casuals can include Normal raiders. I honestly bet less than half of the playerbase actually likes LFR.

[anaxie]

....13 boss raid tier dose not matter to me personally different dungeon different boss's. At lease that is how I see it and if I recall it wasn't going to be this way it was going to be firelands then the underwater raid then Those 3 raids with the final raid of cata.

At lease I remember something along those lines getting said before cata came out.

You cannot say the music and atomphere of TotFW is not completely epic. Especially Al'Akir and the concept of the Conclave of winds fight. That place was amazing.

Well actually you can say it wasn't because of personal taste. But man. That place was pretty cool

[Sniperpally]

it's the same thing over and over. the only reason a few people support the idea of exclusive content is because they assume they'll get to see it. if you guarantee that they won't their opinion would change.

it's not about being challenged. has nothing to do with integrity of the game. a minority of players want to feel special by excluding as many people as possible.

really because I've been in the situation of being unable to raid and preferred that the game didn't allow me any sort of LFR option. The bottom line is people are complex psychologically and its like Morello (League of Legends head content designer, the most played game in the world) says, they need that feeling of open endedness, of there always being something to strive for, to really dig into a mmo. People will say they don't like the idea of content they know they'll never see, and its true they don't like the idea of it. But they'll still play the hell out of the game.

being a non raider in vanilla was the best because unlike today there was meaningful difficult progression outside LFR. Now we have LFR which are trivial raids, and we also have trivial heroic 5 mans, trivial scenarios, etc. LFR basically made everything trivial by doling out gear at an insane rate that trivialized all other content except for real raids, which suddenly don't matter cause you've already seen them and the gear you have suitably outpaces all other content making you feel powerful, oh and it looks the same. You take away LFR and the insane item bloat and once again blues become meaningful again and you can actually feel progressed doing the content that was designed for casuals, instead of simply bringing raiding down to your level.

not having LFR actually made the game more engaging as a non raider which is why even LFR proponents, if they're proponents simply because of lack of time, should want LFR to go away, because it means all other forms of content that were previously satisfying no longer are. And it has the added detriment of bringing down the entire raid game. Everybody loses

[Jtbrig7390]

Casuals can include Normal raiders.

Ok and once again 95% of the game is causal's I highly dough its the casual's on here bitching about how there heroic raid group has to do LFR.........

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You cannot say the music and atomphere of TotFW is not completely epic. Especially Al'Akir and the concept of the Conclave of winds fight. That place was amazing.

Don't get me wrong ToTfw and the 5man dungeon "can't remember its name" was really cool looking and I loved it kinda why I couldn't wait to see the underwater raid that never happen.

But on Scale they was small.

"Offtopic: Why is your avatar making that face at me LOL "

[Dreknar20]

Is there anyone that LFR is preventing from normal mode raiding?

idk, how bout that LFR provides the majority of endgame content and that organized raiding offers only small/minimal rewards thus not worth it

[Dormie]

Ok and once again 95% of the game is causal's I highly dough its the casual's on here bitching about how there heroic raid group has to do LFR.........

What are you even talking about.

[Jainzar]

Is there anyone that LFR is preventing from normal mode raiding?

Uh, no. LFR only makes it easier for a newbie to raid, by:

* Gearing him
* Familiarizing him with the basics of the environment and encounters
* Doing that in a manner that is self-directed and convenient

Now, if a progression guild can't take someone who wants to raid normal and heroic, who does a good job in LFR, and who has a mature approach to working with others, and make a proper raider out of him, then guess where the problem is?

It's not LFR.
It's not the LFR raider.

If you guys aren't willing to train your new raiders, you will never have any more of them. The game won't do it for you, Blizzard won't do it for you, and no one can solo his way to a spot.

you are only looking at a small example, taken out of the big picture.

What you're forgetting is: the current LFR system killed the motivation for the standard LFR raider to even try normal modes.

By doing LFR he got the same gear that is available in normal mode and heroic mode, he killed the bad guy and he experienced all the content. There's no reason anymore for him to push for more. This severely impacts the amount of new and possible recruits for normal and heroic mode raiders. And please don't exagerate on "how hard it is to join a normal mode raiding guild". It's not that hard. And you don't even have to play 24/7 to do it. You just have to invest a little effort into the game (again: effort, not time. big difference). But LFR entirely kills that motivation, so even if we wanted, we couldn't "train" enough recruits to keep the whole normal mode and heroic mode raiding going for much longer, because there's simply not enough of them anymore. And yes, LFR is a reason for exactly this.

[Jtbrig7390]

idk, how bout that LFR provides the majority of endgame content and that organized raiding offers only small/minimal rewards thus not worth it

In your opinion.

In my opinion I rather not deal with assholes and bash my head into a wall to do Normal mode raiding.

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What are you even talking about.

...you replyed to this once with a stupid comment then I replyed to that with what I said and now you ask me what I'm talking about...

Ok now I am done talking to you because its getting clear what your doing.

[anaxie]

cept there never was not much a need to run LFR ( for 5.2) - even for normal mode raiders
Higher item lvl hap mean no upgrades - least in terms if item lvl
And rep/legendary items shared lockout across everything

As for me, I absolutly, completely despise doing the same exact raid more than once on my main, Completely hate it.
Im all for things for raiders to have things to do outside of raiding, but the same exact raid, of the same exact bosses, in the same exact environments, with the same gear/rewards is not helpful at all

Yes sadly flex will be required heavily the TRINKETS within and some bonus's are absurd in power. There are also proc weapons and various other items that could result in upgrades. It's unfortunate that the itemlevel is that high. By goodness. If they can help push new players back into a proper path to a raiding enviornment and stem the rapid retention it's damn well worth the downsides.

I would like to see the came stop bleeding subs and see an expansion beyond argus <assuming next expansion is argus> if it's not that or legion oriented my wish for the retention to be stemmed will be even greater!

[Dormie]

you are only looking at a small example, taken out of the big picture.

What you're forgetting is: the current LFR system killed the motivation for the standard LFR raider to even try normal modes.

By doing LFR he got the same gear that is available in normal mode and heroic mode, he killed the bad guy and he experienced all the content. There's no reason anymore for him to push for more. This severely impacts the amount of new and possible recruits for normal and heroic mode raiders. And please don't exagerate on "how hard it is to join a normal mode raiding guild". It's not that hard. And you don't even have to play 24/7 to do it. You just have to invest a little effort into the game (again: effort, not time. big difference). But LFR entirely kills that motivation, so even if we wanted, we couldn't "train" enough recruits to keep the whole normal mode and heroic mode raiding going for much longer, because there's simply not enough of them anymore. And yes, LFR is a reason for exactly this.

Exactly, the content they so desperately want to see has to remain the goal.

...you replyed to this once with a stupid comment then I replyed to that with what I said and now you ask me what I'm talking about...

Ok now I am done talking to you because its getting clear what your doing.

No your talking about heroic raids having to do LFR or something or other out of nowhere.

[Jainzar]

In your opinion.

In my opinion I rather not deal with assholes and bash my head into a wall to do Normal mode raiding.

If you "bash your head into a wall to do Normal mode raiding" you're either terrible or trying to do bad on purpose. Sorry to break it to you, but if you put some effort into getting to know your class, are familiar with the simplest of boss mechanics and communicate with others, normal modes are easy and easily doable.

[Normie]

Are you purposefully ignorant? If rewards are offered that can help your team progress you are ENCOURAGED to do the LFR and flex raiding despite their difficulty drop. Infact flex appears to be 1 item level HIGHER then current tier heroics. That is pretty insane and directly encourages heroic raiders to do content that is not designed for them. And no it is no optional for any heroic oriented progression guild. You are encouraged to do so. To not is the exact same and showing up without enchants and gems and just going oh well!

Why do you think that content is not "designed" for you if that content can increase your character's power?

It's a choice. It's a choice you're meant to have. It's a choice you are meant to make intelligently.

I think it's pretty intelligent to realize that getting at most 1-2 drops that will increase your ilevel by .08 apiece, for 2-4 hours of work, is not something you should consider a high priority.

[Jtbrig7390]

If you "bash your head into a wall to do Normal mode raiding" you're either terrible or trying to do bad on purpose. Sorry to break it to you, but if you put some effort into getting to know your class, are familiar with the simplest of boss mechanics and communicate with others, normal modes are easy and easily doable.

I know my class and I know how to play it. I don't know the 9 other class's in my raid nore can I make them not stand in the fire. I was never a heroic raider just normal mode with maybe 1 or 2 heroic kills and I got tired of having to be the one leading the raids and I personally rather just do my own thing.

[Deleted]

You cannot say the music and atomphere of TotFW is not completely epic. Especially Al'Akir and the concept of the Conclave of winds fight. That place was amazing.

Well actually you can say it wasn't because of personal taste. But man. That place was pretty cool

Yeah, well, you know, that's just like, your opinion, man.

Yes you can say TotFW was not epic. The only epic thing about it was the drops. I play without music and sound. And I found that a horrible raid, especially on 25 heroic. Then again, I don't even like the concept of 1 or 2 raid bosses in 1 raid... nor do I find WoW in triple axis very compelling.