When did Garrosh became this evil?

[Zaelsino]

Aside from that last point, his character development has actually been fairly solid.

I agree. The dots are there if you bother to connect them; he's not as inorganic as many people assume.

[docterfreeze]

Cataclysm: Suddenly handed the power of the most important man of the Horde, Garrosh is immediately met with hostility from his peers. Vol'jin states, to his face, that he does not respect his rule. Cairne challenges him (In his mind, rightfully as the druids had been attacked in a peaceful meeting), and Magatha Grimtotem shows the Tauren are also only partially able to be trusted.

Oh god, this video just popped into my mind because it fits so perfectly.

Santa- Garrosh

Elf- Other horde leaders

[Aquamonkey]

Cataclysm: Suddenly handed the power of the most important man of the Horde, Garrosh is immediately met with hostility from his peers. Vol'jin states, to his face, that he does not respect his rule. Cairne challenges him (In his mind, rightfully as the druids had been attacked in a peaceful meeting), and Magatha Grimtotem shows the Tauren are also only partially able to be trusted. Thrall forces Goblins to his side. He essentially now has reason to believe every Horde race other than Orcs are just holding them back, even if not rightfully. It's around this time that his attitude really changes towards the other races of the Horde.

Not according to Tides of War. He's still trying to earn their respect and shower them with the spoils through the Theramore campaign.

They were loved and respected by their people, and both did have true loyalty to the Horde, if not to Garrosh individually. Soon, they would come to heel and acknowledge that his tactics had been beyond brilliant—indeed, that he had achieved more for the Horde than any leader, including the adored Thrall, had ever done.
Then they would honor him as well as the Horde, and he would show his magnanimity to them as he had with Captain Briln. Garrosh permitted a pleased, rather smug smile to curve his lips.
--Tides of War

[babo7000]

Garrosh has had very strange tendencies about his character development. But here's the one thing that's remained:

He looks out for honorable Orcs.

BC: Shunned and ridiculed his entire life, he had to live with the burden of believing his father caused the blood curse, and never could he be redeemed from that. Thrall re-inspires him by revealing Grom also FREED the orcs of their blood curse, revitalizing Garrosh's Orcish spirit.

Wrath: Orcish spirit is pretty obvious. He goes to war, recognizing immediately that the Alliance will never be his allies. He also witnesses the horrors of the undead plague, and the betrayal of the Forsaken. He watches the Trolls struggle to regain their homeland from the Witch Doctor. He watches the Blood Elves as they stay mostly to themselves in Quel'thalas as the Horde does all the work. The Horde, in his eyes, are only useful for the Orcs and the Tauren.

Cataclysm: Suddenly handed the power of the most important man of the Horde, Garrosh is immediately met with hostility from his peers. Vol'jin states, to his face, that he does not respect his rule. Cairne challenges him (In his mind, rightfully as the druids had been attacked in a peaceful meeting), and Magatha Grimtotem shows the Tauren are also only partially able to be trusted. Thrall forces Goblins to his side. He essentially now has reason to believe every Horde race other than Orcs are just holding them back, even if not rightfully. It's around this time that his attitude really changes towards the other races of the Horde.

Stonetalon: An Orc used a militarized weapon the size of which scared the entire night elf forces in Ashenvale against a non-hostile druid base, when his forces were clearly already winning. Cowardly, does not belong in his Horde.

MoP; 5.0: With the imminent destruction of the world passed, Garrosh turns his destructive tendencies towards the only remaining enemy; The Alliance. A new isle is discovered by the Alliance first, and he immediately orders that the continent be secured for the Horde instead, as the resources will fuel his war machine.

MoP; 5.1: The Horde as a whole has proven to be a very strange thing to lead. The Troll loyalty is in question as Vol'jin has already started to show he questions Garrosh's method of warfare, and Garrosh doesn't make it any secret that the Darkspear are not welcome in his Horde. Attempted assassination while Garrosh seeks the power of the previous rulers of Pandaria, the Mogu. Understanding that the Sha (Beings spawned of emotion) can be controlled and weaponized, he seeks to make it so for his warriors. Using the Blood Elves as the meat shields he sees them as, he makes the Blood Elves do the dirty work, knowing they would be weakened afterwards. He even uses the Sunreavers as to blame more Blood Elves for stealing the Divine Bell, and effectively turns the Blood Elves against him as well.

MoP; 5.3: Garrosh has discovered the Dark Heart of Pandaria. Likely without understanding what it really is, he finds out what it is capable of, and chooses to use it to strengthen the Orcish 'True Horde'. This is the one thing I don't quite understand; He knows that the Old Gods are, as he saw what occurred in Ulduar. He at least HEARD of C'thun, and must understand what the heart could be. Why he uses it is beyond me. That goes against his character, who still continues to yell at Thrall about how he "allowed warlocks to thrive under Orgrimmar" while he siphons off the power of an OLD GOD.

Aside from that last point, his character development has actually been fairly solid.

I agree with you on a lot, especially the last point, but you have to remember something about Garrosh and his perception of 'honour'.

Simply put, if you work for or are of use to Garrosh, you are honourable. He ignored anything bad that those working under him might have done, and sweeps it under the rug, claiming it to be for honour or for the Horde. This explains Dark Shaman and Y'Shaarj, which seem to contradict his opinions on Warlocks and Fel.

Warlocks who worked under Thrall and before are weak. They are slaves to the demons, and are part of the reason why the Horde lost in the first war. Similar to Fel/Demon Blood, it was a way for the weak to become stronger. They brought dishonour to the Horde, ONLY because they lost.

With Garrosh, his Dark Shaman and the Heart of Y'Shaarj is acceptable because, hell, he approved of them, and he see's the results as good. The Dark Shaman, despite essentially being Warlocks, are a people strong enough to force the elements themselves to do their bidding. The Heart of Y'Shaarj and the Sha , in Garrosh's eyes, are something that only the weak fall victim to. The strong, those in his True Horde, are able to conquer it, thus, they are acceptable.

EDIT: To drive this home, read Siegemaster Blackfuse's dungeon journal. He is the only Goblin that is good enough for Garrosh. So Garrosh, someone who says the Orcs are the only race worthy of living on Azeroth, eats his own words by letting Blackfuse live, and only does so because he is a good engineer.

Also, Stonetalon much like I always assumed, has been confirmed to be a charade by Garrosh. I always guessed he killed Krom'Gar simply because the Tauren would find out about the village that also got wiped out. He killed two birds with one stone, the Druid school is gone, and he gets praise for punishing the one behind it. But anyways, Kosak said in his interview with Jesse Cox that Stonetalon wasn't a change of heart for Garrosh. As he put it 'Krom'Gar wasted a mana bomb!'

[Aquamonkey]

Also, Stonetalon much like I always assumed, has been confirmed to be a charade by Garrosh. I always guessed he killed Krom'Gar simply because the Tauren would find out about the village that also got wiped out. He killed two birds with one stone, the Druid school is gone, and he gets praise for punishing the one behind it. But anyways, Kosak said in his interview with Jesse Cox that Stonetalon wasn't a change of heart for Garrosh. As he put it 'Krom'Gar wasted a mana bomb!'

Source?

Because:

People often debate whether Stonetalon Garrosh and MoP Garrosh are the same Warchief. Is there something afoot?
How so? He never ordered nukes wasted on civilian targets and still wouldn't. (Source)
It didn't seem he cared if Theramore had civs in ToW.
Theramore completely a military target, more so when the civs have chance to escape. (Source)

[Cosmic Janitor]

In "The Shattering" he is already on his ego trip when he returns from Northrend and everyone and their granny greets him like he is fucking Cesar. Funny considering he is supposed to have earned many victories, yet the only time he is involved at all was acting like a rabid animal on 2 occasions and he was neither involved in the Ashen Verdict nor the Ulduar Expedition. Anyway, in "Tides of War" he is already Hitler ... so somehwere in between. Probably somehwere during Cata, most likely after the one Saurfang cameo (sic?) where he quotes Saurfang. In Twilight Highlands he was already a warmongering idiot devoid of any leadership qualities, yet still seemed to care about all of the horde ... somewhat. So he went apeshit some time during cata, but because he didn't do much during cata at all it is hard to guess when exactly.

[Deleted]

Garrosh wanted to rule the World since he stepped into Orgrimmar, altough "indirectly".

He never came out and said to himself "I want to rule the World", but rather he wanted to get the Lands that the Orcs deserve in his view.

Garrosh wanted Ashenvale for the Orcs to live, but since the Night elves have issues with that, he needs to put them out of the way, and since those Night elves have allies, they will have to go as well.

At it's core, it was much more of a chain reaction, Garrosh wanted Lands for the Orcs that the Night elves hold which dragged the entire Alliance into the conflict which pretty much decided who would rule Azeroth.

The only thing i am interested in, when did Garrosh turned into a racist douche, he never liked Trolls that's no secret but this whole "True Horde" stuff, even in MoP he saw the other races as still useful to the Horde, as seen by the Pandaren Horde intro and even wanted a create a destiny for the Races that stand with the Orcs.

"I will stop at nothing - NOTHING - to ensure a proud and glorious future for the orcs and anyone with the courage to stand with us."

I mean the lack of loyalty is one thing, but this True Horde stuff isn't just "Race X/Y/Z isn't loyal", it's straight you're an Orc or you're worthless.

The evolution (or devolution) of Garrosh's honor and pride is pretty much a straight line (save a couple of quests in Cata like the cited Stonetalon one) since TBC. I think the disconnect from a lot of people comes from the Garrosh shown at the start of MoP which is a couple of steps along the road than we last seen him in Cataclysm. As for the racism thing I just took that as a growing mistrust of those around him; I imagine Garrosh unchecked would be much like one of those rulers surrounded by sycophants and yes-men.

[babo7000]

Source?

Because:

People often debate whether Stonetalon Garrosh and MoP Garrosh are the same Warchief. Is there something afoot?
How so? He never ordered nukes wasted on civilian targets and still wouldn't. (Source)
It didn't seem he cared if Theramore had civs in ToW.
Theramore completely a military target, more so when the civs have chance to escape. (Source)

It was in that interview with Jesse Cox a couple of days ago. He didn't confirm it, but his exact wording was 'The dude wasted a mana bomb!', to Jesse's comment/question about Garrosh' characterization being inconsistent, citing Stonetalon specifically.

[Dreknar20]

Funny considering he is supposed to have earned many victories, yet the only time he is involved

He is the Overlord that led the whole Horde armies against the Scourge, he was involved plenty

- - - Updated - - -

Not according to Tides of War. He's still trying to earn their respect and shower them with the spoils through the Theramore campaign.

you can even site more recently, from 5.1
"I will stop at nothing.....nothing.......to ensure a proud and glrrious future for the orcs, and anyone who has the courage to stand with us'

[babo7000]

He is the Overlord that led the whole Horde armies against the Scourge, he was involved plenty

Questing in Borean Tundra and Dragonblight, along with the letter from Sarufang himself, heavily implies that the major reason for Garrosh's success in Northrend was due to Saurfang covering his failures.

[Dreknar20]

(save a couple of quests in Cata like the cited Stonetalon one) .

there were also plenty within the Shattering and Heart of War
If Garrosh was oh so terrible from the onset him becoming Warchief wouldnt have even been possible

- - - Updated - - -

I think the disconnect from a lot of people comes from the Garrosh shown at the start of MoP which is a couple of steps along the road than we last seen him in Cataclysm. .

I think that can be explained that Mezten said they didnt initially plan to pull this storyline till the x-pac after MoP, which would have given them more and time

- - - Updated - - -

Northrend was due to Saurfang covering his failures.

You honestly believe that his advisor could pull strategic/tacitcal decisions for the Horde armies all out of eye-sight from their Overlord?
For something people always claim its cited absolutly nowhere, yet Garrosh being hailed as a hero for his success in Northrend is read everywhere in excerts concerning Hellscream

[Cosmic Janitor]

He is the Overlord that led the whole Horde armies against the Scourge, he was involved plenty

- - - Updated - - -


you can even site more recently, from 5.1
"I will stop at nothing.....nothing.......to ensure a proud and glrrious future for the orcs, and anyone who has the courage to stand with us'

He led the western horde armies, because the eastern part, mostly consisting of forsaken, didn't even mention him once. The only thing he achieved was a crushing defeat at both the wrathgate and icecrown itself where he ground his armies to dust on one of the many gates there. But don't get my wrong, I love how he was retconned by blizzard with them saying he achieved many victories and lead the horde to success, without mentioning even a single one of course.

[Aquamonkey]

It was in that interview with Jesse Cox a couple of days ago. He didn't confirm it, but his exact wording was 'The dude wasted a mana bomb!', to Jesse's comment/question about Garrosh' characterization being inconsistent, citing Stonetalon specifically.

Yes... wasted a "mana bomb" on civilian targets. Garrosh wouldn't use one against civilian targets.

What do you think was the moment when Garrosh became evil? Like is there a moment... because to me, he always was power-hungry and sort of just like a very bossy and just kind of an asshole. But at least in Cataclysm he had that sort of honor system within him where when he, for example, when they blew up the druid tree and he's like, "Whoa! What are you doing?" and he threw that dude off the bridge. I feel like there's some honor there.
The dude totally wasted a mana bomb. *laughing* (Source)

You are taking this statement too seriously and out of context. Kosak then goes on to describe Garrosh's progression as a line and not a "right turn". So nothing about Kosak's statements suggest any inconsistency.

[Cosmic Janitor]

Yes... wasted a "mana bomb" on civilian targets. Garrosh wouldn't use one against civilian targets.

What do you think was the moment when Garrosh became evil? Like is there a moment... because to me, he always was power-hungry and sort of just like a very bossy and just king of an asshole. But at least in Cataclysm he had that sort of honor system within him where when he, for example, when they blew up the druid tree and he's like, "Whoa! What are you doing?" and he threw that dude off the bridge. I feel like there's some honor there.
The dude totally wasted a mana bomb. *laughing* (Source)

You are taking his statement too seriously.

Yeah as much as I dislike the character, people need to learn to grasp when someone is making a joke in these interviews and do not take the transcript litterally. Dave Kosak seems very well aware that the character is not exactly consistent and knows they tried to make it better than he seemed with the quoting of Saurfang, the wasting of a mana bomb was just him being silly, because I doubt he could outright say : "Yeah we tried to make him a badass, but kinda forgot to keep going at it after this one time".

Edit: I learned that when doing an interview and publishing it in a written format you should hint at things when they were sarcastic or said in a jokingly manner, because these obviously don't translate well into letters. MMO-C should maybe adopt this practice, considering how most blizzard interviews are about them making silly remarks to disguise the fact that they simply can't talk about stuff.

[babo7000]

Yes... wasted a "mana bomb" on civilian targets. Garrosh wouldn't use one against civilian targets.

What do you think was the moment when Garrosh became evil? Like is there a moment... because to me, he always was power-hungry and sort of just like a very bossy and just king of an asshole. But at least in Cataclysm he had that sort of honor system within him where when he, for example, when they blew up the druid tree and he's like, "Whoa! What are you doing?" and he threw that dude off the bridge. I feel like there's some honor there.
The dude totally wasted a mana bomb. *laughing* (Source)

You are taking his statement too seriously.

But the question mentions Stonetalon, and the perceived honour people saw in it because of Garrosh punishing Krom'Gar. Everyone likes to think Garrosh killed Krom'Gar because he bombed the school and killed the Tauren, thus he was punishing him for this act of violence. Kosak simply replies saying the guy wasted a mana bomb, while laughing.

It is a statement to take seriously, because it is a Dev addressing the one point in Garrosh's history that he did something good, and replying with a joke on how Garrosh's reasons for doing so aren't what people think.

- - - Updated - - -

Yeah as much as I dislike the character, people need to learn to grasp when someone is making a joke in these interviews and do not take the transcript litterally. Dave Kosak seems very well aware that the character is not exactly consistent and knows they tried to make it better than he seemed with the quoting of Saurfang, the wasting of a mana bomb was just him being silly, because I doubt he could outright say : "Yeah we tried to make him a badass, but kinda forgot to keep going at it after this one time".

So you guys are saying that Kosak wasn't implying, 'Oh yeah, Garrosh had his own reasons for Stonetalon', but 'Oh yeah, we fucked up his characterization lol'

[Dreknar20]

He led the western horde armies, because the eastern part, mostly consisting of forsaken, didn't even mention him once. .

Ai, he led the Warsong Offensive, which was the spear head for the Horde expidition

[Aquamonkey]

But the question mentions Stonetalon, and the perceived honour people saw in it because of Garrosh punishing Krom'Gar. Everyone likes to think Garrosh killed Krom'Gar because he bombed the school and killed the Tauren, thus he was punishing him for this act of violence. Kosak simply replies saying the guy wasted a mana bomb, while laughing.

It is a statement to take seriously, because it is a Dev addressing the one point in Garrosh's history that he did something good, and replying with a joke on how Garrosh's reasons for doing so aren't what people think.

- - - Updated - - -



So you guys are saying that Kosak wasn't implying, 'Oh yeah, Garrosh had his own reasons for Stonetalon', but 'Oh yeah, we fucked up his characterization lol'

Kosak then goes on to describe Garrosh's progression as a "line" and not a "right turn". So nothing about Kosak's statements suggest any inconsistency. Stonetalon was a waste because it was against civilians and not a military target.

[Dreknar20]

by blizzard with them saying he achieved many victories and lead the horde to success, without mentioning even a single one of course.

Was the Warsong Offensive not successful in Northrend? Was the Scourge not defeated?
They established strongholds through Northrend and pushed to the gates of Icecrown

[Durauk]

I heard he had his boy parts were cut off by a gang of Alliance. So he's kinda pissed.

[McCronCronz]

Garrosh was never honorable

Would you like to explain this further?
He's an ORC. Orcs are a blood crazed violent race. This is exactly what Garrosh is and is what the Horde needs. Obviously he's fucked in the head but he's and orc. Garrosh is just being real and staying with his roots. Fuckin game is a soap opera now.