BiS - 5.4 Blood Death Knight

[Nillo]

Riposte is barely any DPS gain at all.

Wat why?


Anywho on topic: BiS lists are pretty much always pointless since they rely on a certain setup you will never ever achieve (during progression).
It would be much more important to list all available item drops for a slot with locations .... and maybe list them in the order that you think is most beneficial. (or list them by type: avoidance | mastery | dps)

[Raegwyn]

Not sure if this is trolling...but here it goes.

BrewM want haste/crit for quicker resource regen + faster gains in Elusive Brews
Prot Pallies, well this is obvious - faster gains for HP = More ShoR uptime
Druids - similar situation to BrewM
Prot Warriors - Stam/Mastery/Parry (Currently)

Blood DK on the other hand want as much HP initially (to a desired safe point) then go all out Mastery. We could stack haste to aid in rune regen, but we would need so much that the return would be less than stacking mastery. Experimented with this on my DK and was able to get Rune Regen down to around 6.8 Seconds, but my mastery suffered greatly (bottomed out to around 130% roughly). I ended up taking more frequent bursts of spike damage than having a higher mastery pool (251% properly gemmed and reforged) thus Mastery beats haste for Blood DKs for one obvious reason: Larger Blood Shield per Death Strike. Nothing more amazing than managing to land a 380k+ DS BloodShield after perfect timing from a large intake of damage.

Have to remember, Blood DK Stat priority pretty much the following:
Stam(to personal safe point)>Mastery>Hit(7.5%)=Exp(7.5%)>Parry>=Dodge>Haste>Crit

as far as ive seen from personal experience on heroicn 25 ptr testing you reach a point at about 200%-240% mastery depending on boss were more mastery would just be dumb because you often reach the point even without tankswitching in which your bloodshield will be capped on you max hp while you are actively tanking a hardhitting boss. since that is the case mastery gets less valueable at that point making haste the most desired stat. but i have to agree you will totally max out stam at first

[DarkStarUndead]

Wat why?


Anywho on topic: BiS lists are pretty much always pointless since they rely on a certain setup you will never ever achieve (during progression).
It would be much more important to list all available item drops for a slot with locations .... and maybe list them in the order that you think is most beneficial. (or list them by type: avoidance | mastery | dps)

I did a quick version of this, I can post it a little later. I listed out the bosses, had two columns, one for haste build and one for dodge/parry, then put the slot of an item that drops that we would use as a tank.

[Veraxys]

I did a quick version of this, I can post it a little later. I listed out the bosses, had two columns, one for haste build and one for dodge/parry, then put the slot of an item that drops that we would use as a tank.

As stated earlier I have an updated list being published today - in the process of finalizing it now and making sure the links display/show properly. Should be up shortly with 2 gearing strategies.

- - - Updated - - -

as far as ive seen from personal experience on heroicn 25 ptr testing you reach a point at about 200%-240% mastery depending on boss were more mastery would just be dumb because you often reach the point even without tankswitching in which your bloodshield will be capped on you max hp while you are actively tanking a hardhitting boss. since that is the case mastery gets less valueable at that point making haste the most desired stat. but i have to agree you will totally max out stam at first

This has been close to my experience as well. I guesstimate a safe cutoff point for Mastery would be in the neighborhood of 250% tops, then picking up a little more stamina to aid in the max size, as well as focusing on more avoidance if you want to benefit from Riposte. I am willing to also agree on the fact that at this point in gearing, with, let's say 250% Mastery could/should be a goal to reach, then go with as much haste as you want so to speak - or continue with a tradition build, grabbing more Stamina and Avoidance.

I guess I am sort of a traditionalist since I've been rocking Mastery>Stam>Avoidance since Blood's AM kicked in Pre-Cata patch and like being able to sit on a well timed Death Strike and see a massive absorb go up!

[Sunnydee]

Not sure if this is trolling...but here it goes.



Blood DK on the other hand want as much HP initially (to a desired safe point) then go all out Mastery. We could stack haste to aid in rune regen, but we would need so much that the return would be less than stacking mastery. Experimented with this on my DK and was able to get Rune Regen down to around 6.8 Seconds, but my mastery suffered greatly (bottomed out to around 130% roughly). I ended up taking more frequent bursts of spike damage than having a higher mastery pool (251% properly gemmed and reforged) thus Mastery beats haste for Blood DKs for one obvious reason: Larger Blood Shield per Death Strike. Nothing more amazing than managing to land a 380k+ DS BloodShield after perfect timing from a large intake of damage.

Have to remember, Blood DK Stat priority pretty much the following:
Stam(to personal safe point)>Mastery>Hit(7.5%)=Exp(7.5%)>Parry>=Dodge>Haste>Crit

as you can see from rest of the thread, no. Not trolling

and then i may ask about the bolded part, sure mastery is nice, but whats the use when runes are on cd?, i mean haste not only reduces rune cd, but also increases dps. which means haste is benefitial the entire fight. from pull> to death. but what use is mastery when the runes is on cd? nada, i rather have a tad lower mastery with a nice chunk of haste than shitloads of mastery and no haste.


also, why 5/5 t16 in the haste build?

[Veraxys]

as you can see from rest of the thread, no. Not trolling

and then i may ask about the bolded part, sure mastery is nice, but whats the use when runes are on cd?, i mean haste not only reduces rune cd, but also increases dps. which means haste is benefitial the entire fight. from pull> to death. but what use is mastery when the runes is on cd? nada, i rather have a tad lower mastery with a nice chunk of haste than shitloads of mastery and no haste.


also, why 5/5 t16 in the haste build?

Fixed.

But on the statement with Mastery/Haste - for me Mastery has been SOLID for HM progression and very reliable, thus why I will above all else highly recommend it for its high mitigation potential especially if you have a large healthpool. I have roughly 962k HP fully raid buffed @ 233% mastery with raid buff and I start stacking as soon as I take a few large hits, then practically sit on a full bloodshield with spaced out Death Strike timing with baseline 8.33sec rune regen and have zero issues with runegen at all. So pretty much I idle at around (on average) a 400k blood shield and my HP barely dips, and when it does, it's because of fights like Megaera - when a large burst of magic damage comes in and AMS is off cooldown. On top of that, we have so much raid DPS that tank DPS is of little consequence for us, which is how it should be, thus why I will always recommend a more traditional tank build, which is Mastery/Stam/Avoidance. If Haste/Mastery is your thing then go for it - I won't stop you nor can I.

[Boneshatter]

Don't forget about SoB on avoidance. Stacking avoidance (once you are comfortable with your level of stam and mastery) will yield quite a bit more resources- especially on aoe.

On live my stats are hit to cap>mastery>exertise to soft cap>haste but once 5.4 drops I will change haste to avoidance. I think with both riposte and SoB on avoidance it will prove stronger.

[Veraxys]

Don't forget about SoB on avoidance. Stacking avoidance (once you are comfortable with your level of stam and mastery) will yield quite a bit more resources- especially on aoe.

On live my stats are hit to cap>mastery>exertise to soft cap>haste but once 5.4 drops I will change haste to avoidance. I think with both riposte and SoB on avoidance it will prove stronger.

My feelings exactly - I feel the Survival build will yield the best results. Even with that build could aim for 250% Mastery then go out all Stamina just so you have a larger Max shield once topped off.

I'm actually trying the haste build on live right now. Raid Buffed I have 151% Mastery, 24.77% haste with Rune Regen @ 6.6 seconds just to play around with it more.

- - - Updated - - -

Tables have been updated/cleaned up for better reading! Also added alternative gearing strat for Mastery/Haste build w/2set.

[Raegwyn]

BiS lists are pretty much always pointless since they rely on a certain setup you will never ever achieve (during progression).
It would be much more important to list all available item drops for a slot with locations .... and maybe list them in the order that you think is most beneficial. (or list them by type: avoidance | mastery | dps)

This!

also @OP i saw you quoted me in the first post. so i think i need to tell you that my stat priority will be a bit different than yours:
Stamina(To maximal point without gemming)>Hit(7.5%)=Exp(7.5%)>Mastery(200-250% depending on boss)>Haste>Parry/Dodge>Exp(15%)>Crit
for survival purpose.
dont get me wrong i wont ever sacrifice a point of mastery for hit/exp cap im just pointing out those 2 caps are more important than pure mastery itself and you will automatically get them anyway with these days itemlvl and a bit reforge. on multitarget fights those caps arent that important since SoB will stack to 5 anyway.

also since the mastery "cap" varies on boss and playstyle the point also varies at which it would make sense to "overcap" it since its still useful to increase bloodshield for the smaller dmg spikes. it never really gets useless it just loses its importantance at that "cap"point and it greatly depends on boss how much it loses on value.

also perfect gear setup for survival purpose has a lot to do with the boss you are doing and your playstyle. you cant just make a list and say this is best The End.
if you have a boss like garajal you want as much avoidance as possible. if you have a boss like tortos you want as much stamina as possible etc.

and especially the playstyle is important. if you are a DS spammer like most TankDKs these days haste is pretty helpful for you.
If you are a DS Timer like most long time TankDKs or just because a bossmechanic requires you too, then haste is not that important since you will sit on your runes a lot anyway.

you should really try to point that out so casual or alt DKs without much knowledge dont just run SoO and disenchant gear that would fit their playstyle the most just because it isnt on your list.

Summed up that is my main message with this post. Nothing is completly set in stone for survival. it completly varies on boss, on playstyle, even raidsetup etc.

[Veraxys]

This!

also @OP i saw you quoted me in the first post. so i think i need to tell you that my stat priority will be a bit different than yours:
Stamina(To maximal point without gemming)>Hit(7.5%)=Exp(7.5%)>Mastery(200-250% depending on boss)>Haste>Parry/Dodge>Exp(15%)>Crit
for survival purpose.
don't get me wrong i wont ever sacrifice a point of mastery for hit/exp cap I'm just pointing out those 2 caps are more important than pure mastery itself and you will automatically get them anyway with these days itemlvl and a bit reforge. on multi-target fights those caps aren't that important since SoB will stack to 5 anyway.

also since the mastery "cap" varies on boss and play-style the point also varies at which it would make sense to "overcap" it since its still useful to increase bloodshield for the smaller dmg spikes. it never really gets useless it just loses its importance at that "cap"point and it greatly depends on boss how much it loses on value.

also perfect gear setup for survival purpose has a lot to do with the boss you are doing and your play-style. you cant just make a list and say this is best The End.
if you have a boss like Garajal you want as much avoidance as possible. if you have a boss like Tortos you want as much stamina as possible etc.

and especially the play-style is important. if you are a DS spammer like most TankDKs these days haste is pretty helpful for you.
If you are a DS Timer like most long time TankDKs or just because a boss mechanic requires you too, then haste is not that important since you will sit on your runes a lot anyway.

you should really try to point that out so casual or alt DKs without much knowledge dont just run SoO and disenchant gear that would fit their playstyle the most just because it isnt on your list.

Summed up that is my main message with this post. Nothing is completely set in stone for survival. it completely varies on boss, on play style, even raid-setup etc.

This I can roll with, especially the point around HM Tortos - I went with a heavy Stam build on that fight even using hybrid gems to help bulk up the Crystal Shell even higher and once it went on farm, but went back to Pure Mastery stacking once it went on farm (had a little over 1m with stam gearing/gemming but around 920k Stam with pure mastery setup) so granted having more HP for a fight like that can be better, but timing/pooling DS (Long time DK Tank here :P) worked out much better for us and our healer could focus more on raid heals as well as keeping out bat-tank up if for some reason they caught up to him. The combination of a larger timed buildup on bloodshield coupled with the Crystal Shell buff practically broke the fight for us. Then again...we had a Brewmaster perform the kiting so that broke it even more for us. :P

Heavy Magic fights - absolutely, especially for massive stam builds due to the scaling of AMS but also as we all know, it extends the cap for bloodshield cap as well.

The guide is still under construction and being updated as time allows for it (I'll have more time this week). With the constructive feedback being provided, we should have a damn good guide put together right before the patch drops.

You're right about one thing:

you should really try to point that out so casual or alt DKs without much knowledge dont just run SoO and disenchant gear that would fit their playstyle the most just because it isnt on your list.

I should be doing a better job of this to help those that don't push content as hard as some do.

[Deleted]

Personally, I prefer a whole different approach to the blood dk going Haste>Hit(7.5%)=Exp(7.5%)>Mastery>Crit>Parry/Dodge and I'd love to see some BiS list for that. But knowing the community, I'll have to make it myself^^ The rune regeneration of a pure haste build is amazing and it works perfectly well with the new 2p setbonus. Your bloodshields are worthless but the selfheal increases. Large gain on heavy magic fights like Megaera. But it's more of a DPS build due to the large impact it has on 10man. Only raidboss that was impossible to tank with that was Ra-Den^^

[Zaiosrs]

At what gear level is gearing mastery/haste viable?

I almost have my DK max level, and I was aiming at mastery/stam to start with, but the haste builds look like a lot of fun

[Veraxys]

Personally, I prefer a whole different approach to the blood dk going Haste>Hit(7.5%)=Exp(7.5%)>Mastery>Crit>Parry/Dodge and I'd love to see some BiS list for that. But knowing the community, I'll have to make it myself^^ The rune regeneration of a pure haste build is amazing and it works perfectly well with the new 2p setbonus. Your bloodshields are worthless but the selfheal increases. Large gain on heavy magic fights like Megaera. But it's more of a DPS build due to the large impact it has on 10man. Only raidboss that was impossible to tank with that was Ra-Den^^

There is a list that is a Mastery/Haste build on the front page revolving around 4set and 2set t16 setup. I think the issue is alot of Blood DKs WANT to do a heavy haste setup cause Paladins, Monks, and Druids can do that, as it works out much better for them for the time being. The way I see it: if you play a Blood Tank (or ANY Tank in that matter), then gear for Tanking - which is reflected in the Survival Build.

The issue with a haste build for Blood DKs is we run a potential risk of losing alot of mastery. However if you have the gear to support it (Say 200% Mastery baseline) then go for it. Also gear how you want it doesnt concern me - purpose of this thread is to help those that WANT an Idea for how to potentially gear can see some of the (from my view) best loot possible for a Blood DK, while maintaining gearing as a TANK first and foremost - which is how/what tanks should be doing.

The way I see it at the end of the day: If you want to gear as DPS, then play a DPS role. I hope blizz fixes this in the next expac.

Do what you will.

- - - Updated - - -

At what gear level is gearing mastery/haste viable?

I almost have my DK max level, and I was aiming at mastery/stam to start with, but the haste builds look like a lot of fun

Start with Mastery>Stam and be sure to aim for your Hit/Exp caps if possible. If you're looking to get into the Haste game, then be sure you have the Mastery to support it, which will be between 200-250% mastery unbuffed so gear from SoO Raid will make this much easier due the insane amounts of Mastery on gear.

If you're a first time Blood DK tank, I HIGHLY recommend going with the traditional Survival build, which I firmly believe yields some of the best results. Plus your healers will love you for it. (At least mine do.)

I'll be sticking with a heavy survival build this tier as well once more, cause I truly believe a Tank should, well...TANK! I like knowing that I can take a massive amount of damage and know I won't drop anytime soon unless I go AFK for 5min.

My survival build is essentially the gearing method I plan to follow, with the exception of trinkets which I will use DPS trinkets when we have bosses on a pure-farm status.

[Cryopathy]

The way I see it: if you play a Blood Tank (or ANY Tank in that matter), then gear for Tanking - which is reflected in the Survival Build.

Also gear how you want it doesnt concern me - purpose of this thread is to help those that WANT an Idea for how to potentially gear can see some of the (from my view) best loot possible for a Blood DK, while maintaining gearing as a TANK first and foremost - which is how/what tanks should be doing.

The way I see it at the end of the day: If you want to gear as DPS, then play a DPS role. I hope blizz fixes this in the next expac.

I'll be sticking with a heavy survival build this tier as well once more, cause I truly believe a Tank should, well...TANK!.

What is the point of gearing for maximum survival if your survival is not threatened? Eventually you reach a point where, due to a combination of your own skill, gear, and healer gear/skill, the marginal benefit to your raid tips in favor of increasing your DPS rather than your survival. This point is much lower than you think it is.

A tank should be gearing in the manner that is best for his individual raid. This does not necessarily mean that he should be gearing for survival first and foremost. In today's game that often means gearing for extra DPS, especially in 10H raiding.

You say that your healers love you for gearing for maximum survival. I reckon your healers would love you more if you took away some of that survival to increase your DPS. In raid fights, dangerous abilities and add spawns are on timers, and the higher your raid's overall DPS, the more quickly these things are dealt with. More DPS means that problematic phases end more quickly, adds die more quickly, and fights end more quickly overall. More overall raid DPS thus means less raid healing is required. Ask any healer: raid healing is far more stressful than tank healing, with the exception of a few specific fights/mechanics.

This is how tanking works now. In 10 man raiding especially, tanks are expected to contribute significant DPS. You might not like it, but it's the way it is, and gearing for all-out mastery, stamina, and avoidance and completely eschewing haste, crit, DPS trinkets, etc. is doing your raid a disservice.

[Veraxys]

What is the point of gearing for maximum survival if your survival is not threatened? Eventually you reach a point where, due to a combination of your own skill, gear, and healer gear/skill, the marginal benefit to your raid tips in favor of increasing your DPS rather than your survival. This point is much lower than you think it is.

A tank should be gearing in the manner that is best for his individual raid. This does not necessarily mean that he should be gearing for survival first and foremost. In today's game that often means gearing for extra DPS, especially in 10H raiding.

You say that your healers love you for gearing for maximum survival. I reckon your healers would love you more if you took away some of that survival to increase your DPS. In raid fights, dangerous abilities and add spawns are on timers, and the higher your raid's overall DPS, the more quickly these things are dealt with. More DPS means that problematic phases end more quickly, adds die more quickly, and fights end more quickly overall. More overall raid DPS thus means less raid healing is required. Ask any healer: raid healing is far more stressful than tank healing, with the exception of a few specific fights/mechanics.

This is how tanking works now. In 10 man raiding especially, tanks are expected to contribute significant DPS. You might not like it, but it's the way it is, and gearing for all-out mastery, stamina, and avoidance and completely eschewing haste, crit, DPS trinkets, etc. is doing your raid a disservice.

I understand this - again this is what has worked for us and has worked very well with little to no issue at all. It all comes down to group comp too. We have some serious hitters in our raid group that DPS is almost of no consequence.

And I agree, to a point, that Tank DPS should matter. However if the DPS alone can't achieve the DPS required to beat the timer, it shouldn't be left to the Tank to solely "fill in the lacking DPS" and finish the job - DPS should be REQUIRED to fulfill their role to the max. Of course as you say, that's the way it is now.

What about next expac? Hopefully it'll be back to normal, so to speak, where DPS was all on the shoulders of the DPS while Tanks just, well you know, TANK!

Like I said in an earlier response: if you want to gear for DPS stats go right ahead - heck just gem strength or crit - do whatever you want.

[DarkStarUndead]

What about next expac? Hopefully it'll be back to normal, so to speak, where DPS was all on the shoulders of the DPS while Tanks just, well you know, TANK!

I had heard that Blizz wants to make tank stats baseline for tank specs, so we can take whatever dps gear we want to help out our play styles (ie- haste master for pallies and dks, crit mastery for warriors (i think, haven't tanked warrior yet)) and the dodge and parry will just be a certain percent across the board. I dont know if this is true or not, only heard it from a guildie who heard it somewhere.

Also, the point to haste build on pallies is that they can get more holy power and use more shield slams, which gives them a buff that increases their parry (I think) for a short time and by something ridiculous like 30%. With more haste they can actually keep their parry up a lot higher than with classical tanking gear. The extra dps they get is a side effect of pressing more buttons for more holy power. For DKs we just get more death strikes. It's not like it's a huge bonus for us to go haste/mastery, but personally I do like using my haste gear for tanking on normals. It makes holding threat slightly better too.

Hopefully the changes to taunting and the addition of riposte will make holding aggro a lot easier.

[Raegwyn]

Personally, I prefer a whole different approach to the blood dk going Haste>Hit(7.5%)=Exp(7.5%)>Mastery>Crit>Parry/Dodge and I'd love to see some BiS list for that. But knowing the community, I'll have to make it myself^^ The rune regeneration of a pure haste build is amazing and it works perfectly well with the new 2p setbonus. Your bloodshields are worthless but the selfheal increases. Large gain on heavy magic fights like Megaera. But it's more of a DPS build due to the large impact it has on 10man. Only raidboss that was impossible to tank with that was Ra-Den^^

Ofc you prefer a different stat priotity.
The majority of this Thread is talking about 25 HC content.
for 10N or 10HC your build is probably the most viable build you can use, since bossdmg is much lower what lets you go much more offensive.
and if you meet some bosses that roflstomp you you can still easily switch haste and mastery on your prio list with reforge and gems.

PS: Ra-den maintanking as DK is a shitty RNG wipefest regardless of your build. it is totally possible 10 and 25m its just really stupid and requires a shitload of luck and i hate blizzard alot for their unfair programming on fatal strike and the autohits right before. we used a 515 geared warriortank instead of a 545 dk

Also, the point to haste build on pallies is that they can get more holy power and use more shield slams, which gives them a buff that increases their parry (I think) for a short time and by something ridiculous like 30%. With more haste they can actually keep their parry up a lot higher than with classical tanking gear. The extra dps they get is a side effect of pressing more buttons for more holy power. For DKs we just get more death strikes. It's not like it's a huge bonus for us to go haste/mastery, but personally I do like using my haste gear for tanking on normals. It makes holding threat slightly better too.

Hopefully the changes to taunting and the addition of riposte will make holding aggro a lot easier.

pally tanks arent increasing their parry. They have an ability called SoR imagine that as a 3 second IBF. the more haste they have the more often they can use it and they can even reach a point were they have it up 100% of time. also the power of SoR scales with mastery. so in situations with 25 or more adds paladins who use the animus trinket are in fact basically immortal since they have a permanent 80% shieldwall and their healing/absorb scales with vengeance as good as their dmg does.

The problem on DKs on the other side is our survivability doesnt scale with vengeance (unmitigated dmg) only with dmg taken (mitigated dmg) what means our cooldowns/Bloodshields/healer shields actually decrease our survivability in the seconds shortly after while vengeance scaling tanks (everyone else) increase their survivability regardless of how much dmg they ACTUALLY take. paladins on massive multitarget tanking are just the absolute extreme since even though they dont really take any real damage thanks to 80% SoR and high vengeance Sacret shield, the unmitigated dmg is just ridiculous high what makes them do shitloads of damage while tanking things any DK would die too instantly after CDs are gone.
The good thing on this problem for us DKs on the other hand is that without vengeance or until about ~100k we are much better dps/and survival wise. the practical use of that in a raid situation is ~meh~

[Veraxys]

I had heard that Blizz wants to make tank stats baseline for tank specs, so we can take whatever dps gear we want to help out our play styles (ie- haste master for pallies and dks, crit mastery for warriors (i think, haven't tanked warrior yet)) and the dodge and parry will just be a certain percent across the board. I dont know if this is true or not, only heard it from a guildie who heard it somewhere.

Hopefully the changes to taunting and the addition of riposte will make holding aggro a lot easier.

If blizz makes tank-stats baseline for tanks so we can do whatever we want, as great as some would like that just for the sake of getting gear, I'll probably quit tanking and return to DPS.

Also the changes to taunt are nice, especially taunting off a Brewmaster - this is and was much needed - especially since alot of brewmasters like to keep going all out (my BrewM OT likes to go apeshit...friggin' hate him so much...) that I have to spam taunt on Cooldown and I refuse, REFUSE, to use the fail glyph for DRW. He's learned though since when he does that, I just let him drop. Good tanks will throttle DMG output for a safe and secure swap, as it should be.

My concern for the future of tanking will revolve around the first possibility you mentioned. I just hope that idea doesn't come to pass. The one thing I would like to see done for Blood DKs is the ability to choose to dual wield tank and it not be a threat/dmg loss.

Then again, I'd like to see a return to Frost and Unholy tanking too - just like in WotLK.

[Deleted]

If blizz makes tank-stats baseline for tanks so we can do whatever we want, as great as some would like that just for the sake of getting gear, I'll probably quit tanking and return to DPS.

Also the changes to taunt are nice, especially taunting off a Brewmaster - this is and was much needed - especially since alot of brewmasters like to keep going all out (my BrewM OT likes to go apeshit...friggin' hate him so much...) that I have to spam taunt on Cooldown and I refuse, REFUSE, to use the fail glyph for DRW. He's learned though since when he does that, I just let him drop. Good tanks will throttle DMG output for a safe and secure swap, as it should be.

My concern for the future of tanking will revolve around the first possibility you mentioned. I just hope that idea doesn't come to pass. The one thing I would like to see done for Blood DKs is the ability to choose to dual wield tank and it not be a threat/dmg loss.

Then again, I'd like to see a return to Frost and Unholy tanking too - just like in WotLK.

Seriously, this sounds like you're an oldschool tank who refuses to accept the current state of tanking. If you have to spam taunt on cooldown because your brewmaster knows how to use vengeance, it's your fail and not his. Pressing esc for the sake of not getting the aggro back is not only extremely annoying but a huge DPS loss. Now I can understand that in 25man raiding, you can relax and chill on your role. But not so in 10man heroic. The DPS gain by being a haste DK is so large and extremely useful for not everyone in the raid. Reducing the duration of a phase means your healers will be happy (like Megaera) and the survivability depends on the damage you get. Only real problem with the haste build are heavy dmg spikes like Horridon during the last phase. Then again, vs heavy magic damage it's a lot smoother as I take less dmg on megaera compared to using a mastery build.

It really depends on the boss. For some like Durumu I prefered to go all-mastery even though it wasn't that extremely better. But if your base survivability is high enough for a boss, why further expand it? It doesn't give you anything but being able to chill. And if you continue that, at some point you'll get lazy and will do mistakes. Playing the haste build needs more skill and gives you a lot more awareness about your cooldowns and how to effectivly use them.

Blizzard designed vengeance the way it currently is. Why ignore it and try to force an old playstyle? Every other tank knows how to use vengeance, why not blood dks? Where is the problem if you can tank Lei Shen 10man Heroic without problems and you go out with overall 210k DPS at the end of the fight? Only problem I see is that some DPS will be jealous because even at max skill they can hardly compete with vengeance.

[Veraxys]

Seriously, this sounds like you're an oldschool tank who refuses to accept the current state of tanking. If you have to spam taunt on cooldown because your brewmaster knows how to use vengeance, it's your fail and not his.

I disagree with this - I do around 100-140k as Blood (sometimes 225k on some fights like Tortos, Durumu, even Lei Shen) but perhaps I am a little old school, cause well, I like to time my Death Strikes so with that, I end up throttling somewhat - and I still end up with better survival.

I believe if the DPS really...REALLY have to rely on Tank DPS to kill a boss (which should never be the case), then the DPS need to re-evaluate their playstyle, since they cannot meet the DPS requirements they themselves need to achieve, and the DPS need to be replaced.

If blizzard wants Tanks to do DPS, then they need to just remove Tank Stats/Gear, and just let tanks wear flat out DPS gear and we all just gear the exact same, and use the same gearset for both an actual DPS set as well as to Tank with.

Also the spamming Taunt on CD is an exaggeration, but DPS for a Tank should be 2nd thought at least, but not top priority. To quote Reniat:
"While Tank DPS is important, surviving is always #1 and being an unstable tank is a hefty price to pay for extra dps. If you aren't stable there had better be a good reason for that extra dps, or you are just making it harder on your healers for no reason, which is obviously not good. If you are trying to rank, make sure your healers are on board first." Source: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...5-3-DK-Tanking

Perhaps this is why I always, ALWAYS outlast my OT on progression and farm kills - he focuses on a lil more DPS (which we do NOT need, trust me) thus he dies, while I end the fight full health!

So yeah...I'll stick to being the last man standing. If the raid needs more DPS I'll do it (but the DPS better evaluate themselves and up their throughput) thus I'll add some extra through means such as Runeforge Swapping or using a trinket. But we have some baller DPS in my raid group. So I'll stick to my survival build so we can continue to 2-heal fights.