Study confirms the idea that schools should have armed/trained security.

[Filathorn]

I don't believe that the number of guns by itself is inherently bad. Comparing Norway, where I live, to USA, we have about 30guns/100 residents, wheras in the US the number is more like 90. Yes, this is three times as many guns per person, which might sound scary, but in my eyes it's only 3 times as many. We have strict laws on guns, who can have them, what kind of guns, and how to store them. This means that for every 30 guns we have, we've made steps to lessen the probability that they end up in the wrong hands. As 22nd September of 2011 proved, a mad man can still get his hands on guns, but it's harder for him. This guy planned for years, and he still didn't get the weapons he wanted to get.

Before doing some research, I was about to write that we probably had like 5guns/100residents, because guns aren't shown or brandished in Norway. If you have a gun, you have it for hunting or personal defense. If you have it for hunting, it's locked in a secure weapon cabinet 10-11 months of the year, if you have it for personal defense, you also have to keep it in the very same secure weapon cabinet, only this time it's 12 months of the year (this is the law). If someone breaks into your house, you can probably get to your gun if you want to (unless they break into the room where your weapon cabinet is, but well, you'd be screwed anyway then, unless people in the US keeps their guns all over the house?), but if you e.g. find your wife in bed with another man, you have to go open the cabinet, probably assemble the gun (you usually just lock a vital part of the gun in the cabinet) and load it before shooting the guy, and thus he has time to run away or you have time to cool down and realize that shooting the guy won't fix anything. If a desperate kid who isn't caught up by the (flimsy)security networks we have around the children in norway wants to shoot someone, he shouldn't have access to a gun, because said secure weapon cabinets should be secure from children as well. And even if he does have access, and have been thought how to assemble and use a gun (why would you ever teach a kid this?), the weapon he has access to probably won't be an easily concealable weapon, because why would you ever need an easily concealable weapon (like a handgun) when a rifle is pretty much as efficient at killing someone who breaks into your home, so he'll probably get stopped because someone sees the weapon

My point is numbers aren't scary, attitudes are. If everyone has handguns, everyone can shoot each other (and defend themselves from others shooting them). If everyone has rifles locked into their homes, most people will be able to defend themselves from stupid burglars, but no one needs to be scared of getting shot on the street, because you can't wear or shoot with a rifle without people noticing you and thus stopping you.

EDIT: And as for ease of obtaining guns in the third world: The very same Breivik from 22nd July thought the very same thing, I don't remember where he went, but his aim was to throw money at someone and get guns in return; it didn't work. To get guns, you need contacts. Contacts you can't even get with years of planning and trying.

[Obtuse]

The good news is in a few years, they'll have to hire more security to watch the other security people. This is turn creates jobs. Go Go Gadget economy.

[Underverse]

Sure, we'll go right ahead and ban hundreds of millions of guns and the problem will go away, I don't see how that possibly couldn't work. And I'm sure even the gangs, mafia, drug cartels and criminals of all sorts that people could just buy firearms from will go 'Okay, here, have our illegal guns too!' Also, Europe has it's fair share of shootings.

As sad as it is, it's probably gotten to the point where this may not be a bad idea. I'm 100% for much stricter gun-control laws but the solution for this...problem... isn't simple, though the problem is: crappy parents that shouldn't have children in the first place are raising crappy children.

Yes, bad parents raise bad children. How do they become bad parents? Ideology factors into it, of course, which may or may not be a part of how they themselves were raised. But it's not just bad parents; it's more than that - even with good parents, a kid can be led astray. I think general environment (which includes parenting) is more responsible for the outcome of children than just the parents.

Here in the states, we have this blurry idea of absolute freedom - we live here to be free, we earned our freedom, other people come here to be free, etc. I think that this idea is not only misplaced, but it also has some negative outcomes, such as people using this idea to justify any number of actions, either consciously or subconsciously. That is to say, we've taken the image of ourselves as the paragons as freedom too far, to the point where it automatically takes priority over most other things. This means two things; first, we don't make the legislation that we should. And second, we act with less respect for the law in cases where freedom can be used to justify the ends of the act.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Hate to break this to you, but a decent number of people in rural American do need guns. Hiking in grizzly country without being "loaded for bear" is neither safe nor responsible. Guns are also decent protection against mountain lions, rattlesnakes, and in recent years, wolves. I'm glad to see wolves making a comeback, but do not want to argue with a pack over who gets to eat the elk I just shot. And yes, guns are used for hunting - not just for sport but for the table. I won't say I've ever known anyone who would have literally starved without hunting, but a deer and an elk in the freezer can definitely free up some cash for Christmas. They're also extremely useful for dealing with varmits.

Mountain lions sure but a rattlesnake? IMO those would be hard to hit but...I could be mistaken.

[Themius]

Here in the states, we have this blurry idea of absolute freedom - we live here to be free, we earned our freedom, other people come here to be free, etc. I think that this idea is not only misplaced, but it also has some negative outcomes, such as people using this idea to justify any number of actions, either consciously or subconsciously. That is to say, we've taken the image of ourselves as the paragons as freedom too far, to the point where it automatically takes priority over most other things. This means two things; first, we don't make the legislation that we should. And second, we act with less respect for the law in cases where freedom can be used to justify the ends of the act.

Such as "I shot that woman... she may have been looking for help but she was on my property and she was yelling something so I shot her in the head."

[Airwaves]

I can't be the only one that can see that this is majorly fucked up that you even have to THINK about having armed guards at schools... Let alone having them. Want kind of fucked up, war torn country do you people live in?

[Filathorn]

Hate to break this to you, but a decent number of people in rural American do need guns. Hiking in grizzly country without being "loaded for bear" is neither safe nor responsible. Guns are also decent protection against mountain lions, rattlesnakes, and in recent years, wolves. I'm glad to see wolves making a comeback, but do not want to argue with a pack over who gets to eat the elk I just shot. And yes, guns are used for hunting - not just for sport but for the table. I won't say I've ever known anyone who would have literally starved without hunting, but a deer and an elk in the freezer can definitely free up some cash for Christmas. They're also extremely useful for dealing with varmits.

But do you really need easily concealable handguns for when you go hunting? Isn't it enough to just whip out your hunting rifle and shoot the damn lion/snake/boogieman? Because said hunting rifle won't be as easy to use for anything but hunting. It's harder (not impossible, not even proper hard, just harder) to bring into a school, and it's actually hard to use it to kill several people seeing as you can't just shoot half the people in the classroom and make the other half scream, faint and hide before you have to give your weapon some attention (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, I base myself 1% of actual knowledge and 99% belief here, but I do believe it takes longer to fire say 10 shots with a hunting rifle than with modern handguns).

[Themius]

I can't be the only one that can see that this is majorly fucked up that you even have to THINK about having armed guards at schools... Let alone having them. Want kind of fucked up, war torn country do you people live in?

I know doesn't it sound war torn? I mean we have school drills for "what to do when a shooter enters the building" we have schools taking up systems where it's on lockdown 24/7 and everyone has to have a valid state id to get into the school. If you are a past criminal, they don't let you in (as though past criminals never have children), we have people selling (and people buying) bullet proof backpacks and teaching their kids how to use them as shields, and we have people lobbying for teachers with guns and security with guns, next thing we'll be sending in fucking seals. America acts like a 3rd world country (and going by its crime rate, often times it is worse than a damn 3rd world country)

[Obtuse]

Yeah lions and tigers and bears oh my. If everyone needs guns to shoot Mountain Lions and Rattlesnakes how come no one carries them up here in Canada unless they're specifically out hunting? I go hiking in the mountains where there are plenty of predators. Lots of bears, lots of cougars and the most vicious of all the North American flying snow moose. The difference is I respect their territory. I don't fuck with them and they don't fuck with me. It's about respect. Which really is the main difference between the US of A and it's awesome hat.

[Felya]

If it happens, I want to invest in what ever gun manufacturer that gets the contract to supply the guns. That's some serious cash...

[zealo]

locks don't kill

No but the men breaking the door up can, locks do not make one safe if you have people with an intent to kill you.

[Monoxide]

Banning guns will solve nothing, regulate them better instead.

How are you so insane? Regulating guns better won't change anything, these school shootings (and various other acts of violence) don't generally come from people who go through the appropriate channels to acquire firearms. The guns used in these situations are either stolen or bought illegally. Beyond that, people who are determined to kill others don't need guns to do it, it's just convenient. You want to hurt a lot of people? Google on how to build a home-made bomb.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster

The deadliest mass murder in a school in US history; committed in 1927 by Andrew Kehoe, which killed 38 elementary school students as well as injuring 58 other people. He did it with home made bombs.


I'm going to go a little off here, and I'm sure my opinion won't be popular, but I'll share it anyway. I live in Michigan, and my uncle works for one of the counties here. He drives one of the trucks that transports people doing alternative workforce (as in, when you're arrested and the judge gives you the option of jail time or alternative workforce, where you go along side the road and pick up garbage, as well as other things the county deems necessary; not to be confused with community service). We live near Detroit, and again I'm not trying to be racist when I say this, but in his van each day he has 16ish people, generally all of which are men. Of those, 95% are black. He talks with them while they're driving from one place to the next, and the issue of gun control has come up many times. I remember distinctly one of the conversation he told me about. The men in the van were laughing about, because they said "You fools don't get it...those gun laws aren't for us. You think we care about regulations? We don't register our weapons; we steal them in home invasions. Almost everyone I know has at least one gun, and not a single one has it registered, and not a single one was purchased legally".


Regulating firearms only works for people who were already going to follow the law to begin with. If you're a criminal, or a soon to be criminal (read: someone planning a mass school/theatre/whatever shooting), there are PLENTY of ways to obtain firearms illegally, and having harsher laws on obtaining guns won't change that at all.

[Themius]

Yeah lions and tigers and bears oh my. If everyone needs guns to shoot Mountain Lions and Rattlesnakes how come no one carries them up here in Canada unless they're specifically out hunting? I go hiking in the mountains where there are plenty of predators. Lots of bears, lots of cougars and the most vicious of all the North American flying snow moose. The difference is I respect their territory. I don't fuck with them and they don't fuck with me. It's about respect. Which really is the main difference between the US of A and it's awesome hat.

People talk about hunting but what they really mean is I need my gun to shoot people... (T_T).

[Daveon]

Then explain Chicago. Massive regulation, massive gun violence.

Gun crime in Chicago was down in 2013: http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2...ent-22-percent

"Shootings across the city dropped by 24 percent from 2012 and 16 percent from 2011, according to the department's numbers."

The Chicago PD's focus in 2013 was to remove illegal guns from the street. Apparently it can be done.

When you look at school shootings (particularly those performed by students), most of them are done with illegal guns (or at least a weapon that is not legal for the individual firing it). Illegal weapons are the ones that need to be taken care of. A responsible weapon owner is NO LONGER A RESPONSIBLE OWNER if their weapon is used by someone else who is not licensed. There need to be really harsh laws and better tracking for when a gun leaves licensed hands. Both the unlicensed and the licensed individual need to be penalized more strictly (though in most of these mass shooting cases, the unlicensed individual ends up dead).

Of course, mental health issues and funding also need to be looked at, but we also need EVERY gun owner to be the supposedly responsible "you can pry this gun from my cold, dead hands" NRA member type so these weapons don't end up in the wrong hands...

[Themius]

How are you so insane? Regulating guns better won't change anything, these school shootings (and various other acts of violence) don't generally come from people who go through the appropriate channels to acquire firearms. The guns used in these situations are either stolen or bought illegally. Beyond that, people who are determined to kill others don't need guns to do it, it's just convenient. You want to hurt a lot of people? Google on how to build a home-made bomb.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster

The deadliest mass murder in a school in US history; committed in 1927 by Andrew Kehoe, which killed 38 elementary school students as well as injuring 58 other people. He did it with home made bombs.


I'm going to go a little off here, and I'm sure my opinion won't be popular, but I'll share it anyway. I live in Michigan, and my uncle works for one of the counties here. He drives one of the trucks that transports people doing alternative workforce (as in, when you're arrested and the judge gives you the option of jail time or alternative workforce, where you go along side the road and pick up garbage, as well as other things the county deems necessary; not to be confused with community service). We live near Detroit, and again I'm not trying to be racist when I say this, but in his van each day he has 16ish people, generally all of which are men. Of those, 95% are black. He talks with them while they're driving from one place to the next, and the issue of gun control has come up many times. I remember distinctly one of the conversation he told me about. The men in the van were laughing about, because they said "You fools don't get it...those gun laws aren't for us. You think we care about regulations? We don't register our weapons; we steal them in home invasions. Almost everyone I know has at least one gun, and not a single one has it registered, and not a single one was purchased legally".


Regulating firearms only works for people who were already going to follow the law to begin with. If you're a criminal, or a soon to be criminal (read: someone planning a mass school/theatre/whatever shooting), there are PLENTY of ways to obtain firearms illegally, and having harsher laws on obtaining guns won't change that at all.

Right so many people are just out there making bombs... many people who do these shootings get their guns from family members because after all these years Americans have no fucking clue how to keep their guns locked up.

- - - Updated - - -

Gun crime in Chicago was down in 2013: http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2...ent-22-percent

"Shootings across the city dropped by 24 percent from 2012 and 16 percent from 2011, according to the department's numbers."

The Chicago PD's focus in 2013 was to remove illegal guns from the street. Apparently it can be done.

When you look at school shootings (particularly those performed by students), most of them are done with illegal guns (or at least a weapon that is not legal for the individual firing it). Illegal weapons are the ones that need to be taken care of. A responsible weapon owner is NO LONGER A RESPONSIBLE OWNER if their weapon is used by someone else who is not licensed. There need to be really harsh laws and better tracking for when a gun leaves licensed hands. Both the unlicensed and the licensed individual need to be penalized more strictly (though in most of these mass shooting cases, the unlicensed individual ends up dead).

Of course, mental health issues and funding also need to be looked at, but we also need EVERY gun owner to be the supposedly responsible "you can pry this gun from my cold, dead hands" NRA member type so these weapons don't end up in the wrong hands...

Illegal guns as in, family gun that family never locked up well and allowed family access to? Or in many other cases newly bought gun...

[Wells]

No but the men breaking the door up can, locks do not make one safe if you have people with an intent to kill you.

Where as a gun is flawless with no risks what so ever.

[Deleted]

How are you so insane? Regulating guns better won't change anything, these school shootings (and various other acts of violence) don't generally come from people who go through the appropriate channels to acquire firearms. The guns used in these situations are either stolen or bought illegally. Beyond that, people who are determined to kill others don't need guns to do it, it's just convenient. You want to hurt a lot of people? Google on how to build a home-made bomb.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster

The deadliest mass murder in a school in US history; committed in 1927 by Andrew Kehoe, which killed 38 elementary school students as well as injuring 58 other people. He did it with home made bombs.


I'm going to go a little off here, and I'm sure my opinion won't be popular, but I'll share it anyway. I live in Michigan, and my uncle works for one of the counties here. He drives one of the trucks that transports people doing alternative workforce (as in, when you're arrested and the judge gives you the option of jail time or alternative workforce, where you go along side the road and pick up garbage, as well as other things the county deems necessary; not to be confused with community service). We live near Detroit, and again I'm not trying to be racist when I say this, but in his van each day he has 16ish people, generally all of which are men. Of those, 95% are black. He talks with them while they're driving from one place to the next, and the issue of gun control has come up many times. I remember distinctly one of the conversation he told me about. The men in the van were laughing about, because they said "You fools don't get it...those gun laws aren't for us. You think we care about regulations? We don't register our weapons; we steal them in home invasions. Almost everyone I know has at least one gun, and not a single one has it registered, and not a single one was purchased legally".


Regulating firearms only works for people who were already going to follow the law to begin with. If you're a criminal, or a soon to be criminal (read: someone planning a mass school/theatre/whatever shooting), there are PLENTY of ways to obtain firearms illegally, and having harsher laws on obtaining guns won't change that at all.

This is a classic example of someone that confuses regulation with a complete ban, where did I say we should ban firearms?

[Obtuse]

No but the men breaking the door up can, locks do not make one safe if you have people with an intent to kill you.

Might be worth a decrease in stress if you stopped assuming everyone was trying to kill you. Might even make a friend here and there.

[Felya]

Where as a gun is flawless with no risks what so ever.

Walls are great protection from guns though. I think most bulletproof vests are made of Sheetrock... /sarcasm

[Deleted]

How are you so insane? Regulating guns better won't change anything, these school shootings (and various other acts of violence) don't generally come from people who go through the appropriate channels to acquire firearms. The guns used in these situations are either stolen or bought illegally. Beyond that, people who are determined to kill others don't need guns to do it, it's just convenient. You want to hurt a lot of people? Google on how to build a home-made bomb.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster

The deadliest mass murder in a school in US history; committed in 1927 by Andrew Kehoe, which killed 38 elementary school students as well as injuring 58 other people. He did it with home made bombs.


I'm going to go a little off here, and I'm sure my opinion won't be popular, but I'll share it anyway. I live in Michigan, and my uncle works for one of the counties here. He drives one of the trucks that transports people doing alternative workforce (as in, when you're arrested and the judge gives you the option of jail time or alternative workforce, where you go along side the road and pick up garbage, as well as other things the county deems necessary; not to be confused with community service). We live near Detroit, and again I'm not trying to be racist when I say this, but in his van each day he has 16ish people, generally all of which are men. Of those, 95% are black. He talks with them while they're driving from one place to the next, and the issue of gun control has come up many times. I remember distinctly one of the conversation he told me about. The men in the van were laughing about, because they said "You fools don't get it...those gun laws aren't for us. You think we care about regulations? We don't register our weapons; we steal them in home invasions. Almost everyone I know has at least one gun, and not a single one has it registered, and not a single one was purchased legally".


Regulating firearms only works for people who were already going to follow the law to begin with. If you're a criminal, or a soon to be criminal (read: someone planning a mass school/theatre/whatever shooting), there are PLENTY of ways to obtain firearms illegally, and having harsher laws on obtaining guns won't change that at all.

Guess what can fix that? Regulation.