Malaysian Airlines flight carrying 295 people has been shot down in Ukraine

[May90]

I don't say U.S. has it worse. I simply state that it's not only in Russia. And the huge difference between me and those people, is that I accept that Russia isn't an angel. However, the others, including you will always think that the U.S. is the God.

Dude, you have the whole conversation messed up. I said initially that Russian rulers have methodically suppressed any free thinking for many centuries, while in the US this process hasn't happened - that's why Russians today live so poorly, compared to the amount of resources they have, because they haven't changed their thought patterns. No one has ever said anything here about the US being "god", we have a lot of issues here, and, while life here is 1000 times better than anything I could ever imagine while being in Russia, there is certainly a lot of room for improvement and fixing mistakes. But people here have a relatively free thinking, which Russians do not, and that's what the whole discussion is about, and that's the reason why we see so many Russian trolls in all threads related to Russia or Ukraine here.

Then you started talking some nonsense about Guantanamo being American Gulag, about slavery proving that the Americans are morally low and such... Why?

Your argument is silly, you're forgetting a very simple concept called "degrees of severity". The USA swore at someone and Russia beat him up and then shit on his face. And your argument is "but Americans were bad too!" well so fucking what? Noone is an angel, noone claims to be an angel, and noone is making anyone out to be an angel.

I couldn't put it better than this. If someone insults your kid, he is a douchebag, but if you shoot him in the face in response, the argument that he was a douchebag won't help you much in court.

[Deleted]

It is Malaysia after all. No negative feelings, but I don't think they thought they would get shot down there all of a sudden. Grave mistake, though...

It wasn't just Malaysia - listen to the number of airlines saying they would not fly over Ukraine now; it implies many were doing so before hand. I think airplanes had avoided Crimea and sometimes flying low over Ukraine, but they assumed they were safe at 10,000 feet. They fly over Iraq, Afghanistan, lots of conflict zones. I guess the thinking was that most rebels can't hit things at that altitude and most governments won't, as rebels typically lack air power.

I do feel bad for Malaysia though - that country has no dog in this fight and has not done anything to anyone and yet, as the President said, is having an awful year.

[Slant]

These people, in normal life, wouldn't even be smart enough to watch over sheep. When ruthless and stupid come together, disaster is pre programmed.

Again, check out the transcript. If it's legit, the Russian commander has nothing else to say but "fuck it, probably spies".

Yeah, I read it. But then, I think this is common to soldiering. If you went into war with half a brain, you'd go insane. Look at all the soldiers coming back from Afghanistan with mental problems.

[Deleted]

It was not a no fly zone for civilian aircraft, the airplane was scattered over 15km, now I'm no aircrash specialist, but I think you'd need a nuke to cover damage over that much area.

Ofcourse they have to care what flies over them, you're implying that it's alright for them to shoot at dutch tourists because the ukranian military is shooting at them.

i61.tinypic.com/2ic6yrr.jpg
Picture shows usual flight paths. Note that they all avoid the conflicted area, except today's incident.

es.flightaware.com/live/flight/MAS17/history/20140716/1000Z/EHAM/WMKK
Furthermore, this is the usual route of the MH.

The seps are as much as responsible as the incompetent people allowing such thing. It is your obligtion to ensure flight safety for international liners in your own airspace.

[Sainur]

...how in the flying fuck has this thread derailed into discussion of Russia's political state? May I kindly remind you that 295 people lost their lives because of fuckers who make people kill each other and that's way more important than whether Russia's democratic or not?

This thread derailed many many pages ago where I even saw Hitler being mentioned. Aside from that, it's just (I assume) 'Muricans blaming Russia and so forth, and some pro-Russians defending.

[StayTuned]

Regardless of the action, I have to really question the sheer stupidity of the flight route planner in this light

[img]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bsxs-9sCMAA-Kd1.jpg

Takes a class A moron to plan route over area where others are being shot down now almoust routinely. Especially knowing that they did have high altitude AA in hands.

Thank you. My view of the airline has suddenly changed 180°. They are completely beyond help and should close their airline down forever for such a route. I wasn't aware that those planes were this freaking close to each other. Geezzzz.............

[Celista]

Maybe something similar happened to the first one.

Probably. :P

[alkyd]

The others don't for one second think that, not even the Americans. I'd wager a bet that most of the Europeans imagine America as a bit of a shithole (sorry Americans but we just prefer Europe; different culture, different ideals). You are trying to compare apples and oranges, all that bullshit about Guantanamo and the Gulags I mean how ridiculous, have you ever picked up a history book or used wikipedia?

Your argument is silly, you're forgetting a very simple concept called "degrees of severity". The USA swore at someone and Russia beat him up and then shit on his face. And your argument is "but Americans were bad too!" well so fucking what? Noone is an angel, noone claims to be an angel, and noone is making anyone out to be an angel.

I still stand up to my opinion in regards to my comparisons. I respect everyone else's. If no one is perfect, than let's stop nation bashing. Because this whole argument came from that reason.

[Deleted]

Basically, eastern Ukraine is really quite different from the western part. Everyone and their hamsters have at least one relative in Donetsk or Lugansk or other major eastern cities and everyone claims that those people 'never really felt non-Russian'. It is partly true, actually, but the people who live there have literally nothing to do with those 'rebels'. Russian media keeps showing things this way: 'evil western fascists will kill any russian, will destroy the use of russian language and will let nato and american scum surround us'.

For some strange reason, even those Russians who were protesting against Putin just a couple of years ago are easily swayed at any sight of a foreign enemy, especially when it's about USA. People can't accept the fact that we're no longer even close to being a powerful and respected country and their imperialistic ideals might be actually imprinted in the DNA.

The worst thing is that people actually cheer the bloodshed on and justify any deaths of those people they used to call 'our slavic brothers'. That's something I personally can't forgive and ever since this bullshit started I feel quite isolated from relatives, colleagues and even some friends. People who I thought were more or less adequate now look like your typical warmongering FORMOTHARUSSIA brain-dead zombies.

Nationalism and a common enemy is and has always been the best way to unite a population and keep domestic issues under the rug. Has been done for thousand of years and it keeps working even in this age of information.

Humanity is far too flawed, there are psychological conditions that when an individual is confronted with facts that contradict their believes and ideologies it will actually strenghten them. Glorified apes, that is all we are.

[Sainur]

Also I don't understand what kind of twat would allow a commercial civilian plane to fly above a warzone, even if its 10KM above the ground.

[Slant]

Regardless of the action, I have to really question the sheer stupidity of the flight route planner in this light


Takes a class A moron to plan route over area where others are being shot down now almoust routinely. Especially knowing that they did have high altitude AA in hands.

As far as this thread is concerned, the assumption is that airlines didn't know about high range AA. They planned for low range Stinger and other shoulder launched AA missiles, not SAM sites. Thus a regular airliner altitude would've been quite safe. Nobody expected a bloody SAM missiile to come out of nowhere. As of now, I beliieve most airlines are avoiding the Ukraine. I know Lufthansa re-routed all flights today and probably will continue to do so indefinitely.

[May90]

I still stand up to my opinion in regards to my comparisons. I respect everyone else's. If no one is perfect, than let's stop nation bashing. Because this whole argument came from that reason.

Commenting the high number of Russian trolls in these threads is not nation bashing, it is a fact which demands explanation.

Also the whole logic of "No one is perfect => everyone is equal" is very dumb. If I killed a fly and another dude killed 1000 children, you won't say we are equal because we are both not perfect, right?

[Crispin]

Also I don't understand what kind of twat would allow a commercial civilian plane to fly above a warzone, even if its 10KM above the ground.

Someone who's not quite as retarded as the guy who does not ID wtf he's about to blow out of the sky.

[Wilian]

As far as this thread is concerned, the assumption is that airlines didn't know about high range AA. They planned for low range Stinger and other shoulder launched AA missiles, not SAM sites. Thus a regular airliner altitude would've been quite safe. Nobody expected a bloody SAM missiile to come out of nowhere. As of now, I beliieve most airlines are avoiding the Ukraine. I know Lufthansa re-routed all flights today and probably will continue to do so indefinitely.

The rebels have been boasting about their BOK system that has range of 20 000, I included even a twitter pic just for you last page or the one prior. This was also confirmed by Russian media. One of these missiles was used to shoot down the AN-16 just couple days prior with again rebels being boastful of such system in their control.

Ignorance is NOT an excuse in this case. The one who was behind planning flight routes in the area is fucking moron.

[alkyd]

Dude, you have the whole conversation messed up. I said initially that Russian rulers have methodically suppressed any free thinking for many centuries, while in the US this process hasn't happened - that's why Russians today live so poorly, compared to the amount of resources they have, because they haven't changed their thought patterns. No one has ever said anything here about the US being "god", we have a lot of issues here, and, while life here is 1000 times better than anything I could ever imagine while being in Russia, there is certainly a lot of room for improvement and fixing mistakes. But people here have a relatively free thinking, which Russians do not, and that's what the whole discussion is about, and that's the reason why we see so many Russian trolls in all threads related to Russia or Ukraine here.

Then you started talking some nonsense about Guantanamo being American Gulag, about slavery proving that the Americans are morally low and such... Why?

Then stick to the topic and don't to bash another nation, since what our argument has risen from.

[PickleballAce]

I still stand up to my opinion in regards to my comparisons. I respect everyone else's. If no one is perfect, than let's stop nation bashing. Because this whole argument came from that reason.

You seem to be fine with nation bashing until people start slinging mud your way.

[Slant]

The rebels have been boasting about their BOK system that has range of 20 000, I included even a twitter pic just for you last page or the one prior. This was also confirmed by Russian media. One of these missiles was used to shoot down the AN-16 just couple days prior with again rebels being boastful of such system in their control.

Ignorance is NOT an excuse in this case. The one who was behind planning flight routes in the area is fucking moron.

I know. But you know also how airlines are. Fuel prices and shit... how many planes crashed due to lack of inspections, or improper inspections due to time constraints etc. I would definitely lay half of the blame at the airlines as well. But of course they don't make for a good scapegoat when you have the evil Russian empire next to them... pragmatism wins again. *sigh*

[MerinPally]

I still stand up to my opinion in regards to my comparisons. I respect everyone else's.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Get where I'm going with this? Oh god so much delicious irony. So we've gone from "Guantanamo is as bad as Gulag" and when that was disproved we have "I meant morally" which is bullshit and then there was something prior to that about how free gay people are, and now you post this after staunch denial of other peoples opinions? Get a grip. You have no problem bashing the US or anyone else but as soon as someone said something bad about Russia all hell broke loose. Don't dare try and take the moral fucking high ground.

Anyway back on topic, I'll be monitoring that spanish twitter feed whilst I'm awake tonight and I'll come translate it as and when. With regards to that flight path map - they were further to the west, this one seemed to drift east quite a bit however. Still not exactly the brightest but within reasonable bounds, Ukraine is a big place.

[alkyd]

Commenting the high number of Russian trolls in these threads is not nation bashing, it is a fact which demands explanation.

Also the whole logic of "No one is perfect => everyone is equal" is very dumb. If I killed a fly and another dude killed 1000 children, you won't say we are equal because we are both not perfect, right?

There aren't only Russian trolls. I am sorry it's so late here, my brain is tired, I just can't understand how I can compare 1 fly to 1000 children.

- - - Updated - - -

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Get where I'm going with this? Oh god so much delicious irony. So we've gone from "Guantanamo is as bad as Gulag" and when that was disproved we have "I meant morally" which is bullshit and then there was something prior to that about how free gay people are, and now you post this after staunch denial of other peoples opinions? Get a grip.

Anyway back on topic, I'll be monitoring that spanish twitter feed whilst I'm awake tonight and I'll come translate it as and when. With regards to that flight path map - they were further to the west, this one seemed to drift east quite a bit however. Still not exactly the brightest but without reasonable bounds, Ukraine is a big place.

Respecting other people's opinions doesn't mean you have to agree with them. But you seem to get a bit irritated.

[Crispin]

Then stick to the topic and don't to bash another nation, since what our argument has risen from.

Are you for real mate? you've spent 20 pages on trying to prove how terrible the US is, it's not perfect we know, now don't blame us for "nation bashing".