Vanilla Dungeon/Raid Nerfs

[Deleted]

I’ve scanned all the Classic patches from 1.1 to 1.12, and compiled all the nerfs and major changes made to instance difficulty, overall gameplay and itemisation. I left out all the changes made to Classes, talents trees, professions and in-depth item changes.

During the Vanilla patch cycle many changes were made that trivialised earlier content (ghetto catch-up mechanics), since players have access to more information and in general play better, these nerfs to dungeons/raids, itemisation buffs and implementation of new overpowered rare items will trivialise the content to much. That's why they shouldn't be implemented in classic servers, by doing this the earlier content will remain relevant and challenging.

Google doc with all the changes (tell me if you can access the doc or not, never uploaded one so not sure if it's working)

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...it?usp=sharing

Edit: Just to clarify, I want everything to stay in it's original pre-nerf version that also means no item buffs and no new overpowered items.

[Nitros14]

Shrug, all those nerfs were part of classic. Do you want classic or not?

[Deleted]

Shrug, all those nerfs were part of classic. Do you want classic or not?

They were part of classic, but the pre-nerf versions also were, that's why it's worth discussing.

[Nitros14]

They were part of classic, but the pre-nerf versions also were, that's why it's worth discussing.

They could always roll out the patches in order.

[Deleted]

They could always roll out the patches in order.

That's what I hope they do, but having to redo everything seems a waist of time therefore unlikely blizz will do it.

They might opt for a stable patch were talent trees and minor updates are already done so no need to tweak the little things but they still roll out the dungeons/raid content patches according to the vanilla timeline, but instead of nerfing dungeon/raids and buffing items, they leave everything in it's first version.

[Svisalith]

Launch w/ all changes

I don't see a reason to cut patches in half and only select the changes that you personally like, even when they were set up to counterbalance each other. Nor do i see one to launch with a good fraction of the vanilla content missing forever

Rolling patches could also work but it's quite awkward to do that with major game mechanic changes, it would be weird to fall back from a later patch to an earlier one.

[ddsad2212]

Glad to see real discussion start and shit like "should classic have lfr" beginning to die out. Most people agree 1.12 was the version of classic they want and it probably is the strongest patch. I think having 1.12 in terms of class changes etc would be the best place to start but patch buffs/nerfs and itemization changes as they roll out content. That been said, lockouts should reset every maintenance right from the start.

[Deleted]

Launch w/ all changes

I don't see a reason to cut patches in half and only select the changes that you personally like, even when they were set up to counterbalance each other. Nor do i see one to launch with a good fraction of the vanilla content missing forever

Rolling patches could also work but it's quite awkward to do that with major game mechanic changes, it would be weird to fall back from a later patch to an earlier one.

How so "launch with a good fraction of the vanilla content missing forever" I'm only suggesting that nerfs done to raids/dungeons and itemisation buffs don't get implemented, they raids will still exists and the items will still be there, but raids will be harder, and items weaker, like it was before all the nerfs and buffs.

Yep I agree with the patch progression, changing talent trees and minor tweaks with every new content patch would be awkward, That's why I hope they choose a patch were the talent tree are "OK" and stick with it for the rest of classic wow, but they would still released dungeons/raids and patch content according to the vanilla timeline.

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Glad to see real discussion start and shit like "should classic have lfr" beginning to die out. Most people agree 1.12 was the version of classic they want and it probably is the strongest patch. I think having 1.12 in terms of class changes etc would be the best place to start but patch buffs/nerfs and itemization changes as they roll out content. That been said, lockouts should reset every maintenance right from the start.

I agree with choosing a patch were class changes are decent, but I don't think they should implement the nerfs and itemization changes. Think about it this way, legion right now is in patch 7.3, if they released Legion right now on patch 7.3 all other past patches, 7.0, 7.1, 7.2 would all be irrelevant and very trivialised, the same would happen with vanilla, releasing patch 1.12 with all the nerfs itemization buffs would make patches 1.1 to 1.10 a lot more trivial (not to the point of legion but still a lot less relevant).

[Nitros14]

It's a little different in classic in that to do each raid tier you really needed the gear from the previous raid tier. Dungeons might be less relevant, not raids.

[Echocho]

They could always roll out the patches in order.

That seems unlikely to me. Since they'll have to recreate the vanilla client using the current client, recreating 36 patches would mean we'd see classic in 2020. It also means that once we're at 1.12 the earlier content would be trivialized. They need to make one version, built to last.

[Vaelorian]

If they nerf Vanilla.... I will probably never play a blizzard game again. Did you know? If you said on the forum that you weren't capable of doing a certain thing... the CM's actually told you that the game was not for you. We need to return to that state. Atleast concerning vanilla.

Obviously it would be nice to be able to kill C'thun. That boss was out of wack. I would not call it a nerf... I would call it balance...if they fixed him.

[Svisalith]

How so "launch with a good fraction of the vanilla content missing forever" I'm only suggesting that nerfs done to raids/dungeons and itemisation buffs don't get implemented, they raids will still exists and the items will still be there, but raids will be harder, and items weaker, like it was before all the nerfs and buffs.

Half of my post was referring to what you wanted to do and you quoted/answered the wrong half

I don't see a reason to cut patches in half and only select the changes that you personally like, even when they were set up to counterbalance each other.

[isaac2314]

I'm personally more amazed by the amount of changes loot drops seemed to have changed through the patches. I mean:
- "The chance for an Epic quest item dropping from the Majordomo's chest has been increased to 100%"
- "The loot tables for some of the Molten Core bosses have been improved so they drop an additional epic item per kill"
- "Archivist Galford, Baroness Anastasi, Nerub'enkan, and Maleki the Pallid will now always drop at least one Rare item."

Do bosses actually had a change to drop absolutely nothing before? I'm just surprised because I remembered none of that - which is pretty normal, given that I only really joined in the last year of classic WoW.

For your question, though, I'd just trust Blizzard to come up with a solution on their own. I suspect they would use a custom patch and balance the entire thing again to make sure nothing's too easy or hard, with content unlocked at regular intervals.
They might just follow classic's exact pattern of balancing, buffing, nerfing and content unlocking, but that sounds like a great deal of work - which isn't to say they wouldn't, I suppose.



PS: I think the title and the poll questions are somewhat misleading - some people probably think you are asking if we should nerf the 1.12 patch even more, but it's actually about whether or not we'll nerf the game from its 1.1 patch to the "casual" 1.12 patch.
Unless I got that wrong.

[Deleted]

It's a little different in classic in that to do each raid tier you really needed the gear from the previous raid tier. Dungeons might be less relevant, not raids.

Yes, in classic progression from raid tier to raid tier required you to complete the previous raid, but the gear introduced and buffed in later patches, was in many cases better than tier 1 and tier 2 gear.

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If they nerf Vanilla.... I will probably never play a blizzard game again. Did you know? If you said on the forum that you weren't capable of doing a certain thing... the CM's actually told you that the game was not for you. We need to return to that state. Atleast concerning vanilla.

Obviously it would be nice to be able to kill C'thun. That boss was out of wack. I would not call it a nerf... I would call it balance...if they fixed him.

C'thun should be pre-nerf XD, let's see if 2017 gamers can kill it.

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Half of my post was referring to what you wanted to do and you quoted/answered the wrong half

I'ts no really cutting patches in half, is removing the nerfs, since those were "catch-up mechanics" they should not be implemented at release. Imagine it this way, legion current patch is 7.3, if they released Legion right now on patch 7.3 all other past patches, 7.0, 7.1, 7.2 would all be irrelevant and very trivialised, the same would happen with vanilla, releasing patch 1.12 with all the nerfs to dungeons/raids and itemization buffs would make patches 1.1 to 1.11 a lot more trivial.

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I'm personally more amazed by the amount of changes loot drops seemed to have changed through the patches. I mean:
- "The chance for an Epic quest item dropping from the Majordomo's chest has been increased to 100%"
- "The loot tables for some of the Molten Core bosses have been improved so they drop an additional epic item per kill"
- "Archivist Galford, Baroness Anastasi, Nerub'enkan, and Maleki the Pallid will now always drop at least one Rare item."

Do bosses actually had a change to drop absolutely nothing before? I'm just surprised because I remembered none of that - which is pretty normal, given that I only really joined in the last year of classic WoW.

For your question, though, I'd just trust Blizzard to come up with a solution on their own. I suspect they would use a custom patch and balance the entire thing again to make sure nothing's too easy or hard, with content unlocked at regular intervals.
They might just follow classic's exact pattern of balancing, buffing, nerfing and content unlocking, but that sounds like a great deal of work - which isn't to say they wouldn't, I suppose.



PS: I think the title and the poll questions are somewhat misleading - some people probably think you are asking if we should nerf the 1.12 patch even more, but it's actually about whether or not we'll nerf the game from its 1.1 patch to the "casual" 1.12 patch.
Unless I got that wrong.

I don't think bosses droped nothing, they simply droped greens or less items in general.

Nope you got it right, it's about not nerfing the game at all. My bad if it's confusing.

[Svisalith]

I'ts no really cutting patches in half, is removing the nerfs, since those were "catch-up mechanics" they should not be implemented at release.

They're not just buffs and nerfs, they're QOL changes that accompany or balance out other game changes. You'd need a very good reason to remove the QOL changes that were already implemented in the middle of vanilla

[Deleted]

They're not just buffs and nerfs, they're QOL changes that accompany or balance out other game changes. You'd need a very good reason to remove the QOL changes that were already implemented in the middle of vanilla

those would still be there, I'm just proposing the removal of nerfs, and itemisation buffs, for the sake of keeping early content and early raids challenging.

[Gaidax]

Nerf Vanilla raids? You mean bosses will heal you or something?

[Svisalith]

those would still be there, I'm just proposing the removal of nerfs, and itemisation buffs, for the sake of keeping early content and early raids challenging.

Itemization changes are not just straight buffs where certain items got +20% of the stats that they already had; they are QOL changes so that the items make sense and work properly in their intended roles. Launch vanilla had notoriously terrible itemization with dead stats everywhere, later vanilla a bit less so AFAIK.

[Chrno]

i honestly don't really care at this point as long as they'll keep the classic 'feels'. I would be ok with or without the itemisation buffs

[pateuvasiliu]

Vanilla raids are easy. All you have to do is be prepared gear/buffs/consumables wise, know the tactics and not fuck up.


Vanilla dungeons are even easier than the raids.