China's President Xi says internet control key to stability

[Strawberry]

I said that because you seem to think not being able to access any page you want to means people are oppressed and we can't access anything we want to here. Have you thought about how they feel about it? Do you think they feel oppressed? You are on the outside, looking in, judging by your own way of life without any regard for what those you claim to be oppressed feel about it.

Bungee says Wikipedia isn't blocked.

It seems that mobile Wikipedia is blocked.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Websit...mainland_China

You don't seem to understand what oppression is. I already quoted it earlier in the thread.

[Katie N]

It seems that mobile Wikipedia is blocked.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Websit...mainland_China

You don't seem to understand what oppression is. I already quoted it earlier in the thread.

Do you think Chinese people think it is unjust exercise of authority? Do you think they feel oppressed? That's what matters here, not what you on the other side of the planet think.

[Strawberry]

Do you think Chinese people think it is unjust exercise of authority? Do you think they feel oppressed? That's what matters here, not what you on the other side of the planet think.

Yes of course otherwise so many of them would not use a VPN. Just recently on my vacation I met a Chinese woman who has never left China before, but dreamed about moving to New York.

How long are you going to defend the Chinese government here? You do realize that Tijamin Square is also censored by the oppressing government?

[shadowmouse]

@Strawberry Nope, I'm not going to just sit and let you badger @Katie N. with factually incorrect assertions.

Hi, you mean links like this? I can't get this article because Wikipedia is blocked and the Tiananmen Square Massacre (helps to spell it right if searching) is blocked? So, I can't be quoting this:

The Tiananmen Square protests of 1989, commonly known in mainland China as the June Fourth Incident (六*事件), were student-led demonstrations in Beijing, the capital of the People's Republic of China, in 1989. More broadly, it refers to the popular national movement inspired by the Beijing protests during that period, sometimes called the '89 Democracy Movement (八*民运). The protests were forcibly suppressed after the government declared martial law. In what became known in the West as the Tiananmen Square Massacre, troops with automatic rifles and tanks killed at least several hundred demonstrators trying to block the military's advance towards Tiananmen Square. The number of civilian deaths has been estimated variously from 180 to 10,454.[2][5]

Set against a backdrop of rapid economic development and social changes in post-Mao China, the protests reflected anxieties about the country's future in the popular consciousness and among the political elite. The reforms of the 1980s had led to a nascent market economy which benefitted some people but seriously disaffected others; the one-party political system also faced a challenge of legitimacy. Common grievances at the time included inflation, limited preparedness of graduates for the new economy, and restrictions on political participation. The students called for democracy, greater accountability, freedom of the press, and freedom of speech, though they were loosely organized and their goals varied.[6][7] At the height of the protests, about a million people assembled in the Square.[8]

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tianan...otests_of_1989

From your own link about those blocked sites:

This is a dynamic list and may never be able to satisfy particular standards for completeness. You can help by expanding it with reliably sourced entries.

As of September 2016, more than 6,000,000 websites were blocked in mainland China under the country's Internet censorship policy[1] which prevents users from accessing proscribed websites in the country.

This is a list of the most notable such blocked websites in the country. This page does not apply to the special administrative regions of Hong Kong and Macau, where most of Chinese law does not apply in both regions.

Note that many of the sites listed may be occasionally or even regularly available, depending on the access location or current events.

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Websit...mainland_China

Here, have an article with a picture of Tank Guy: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...n-9483398.html

The image of Tank Man quickly became a powerful symbol of both the bloody events of 4 June 1989 and of non-violent resistance, but the identity of the ‘unknown rebel’ and his fate remains unknown. Many people in China are still unaware of his existence and only a handful of photographers were able to record the event without having to destroy their materials.

Stop with the balderdash, and look up cultural imperialism while you're at it. You are ignoring Katie N. 's own cultural perspective and claiming you hold some ultimate truth.

[Theodarzna]

Considering that is also the political chatter here in the United States and in the EU, I'd say it is weird to condemn him and not others.

[Strawberry]

@Strawberry Nope, I'm not going to just sit and let you badger @Katie N. with factually incorrect assertions.

Hi, you mean links like this? I can't get this article because Wikipedia is blocked and the Tiananmen Square Massacre (helps to spell it right if searching) is blocked? So, I can't be quoting this:

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tianan...otests_of_1989

From your own link about those blocked sites:

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Websit...mainland_China

Here, have an article with a picture of Tank Guy: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...n-9483398.html


Stop with the balderdash, and look up cultural imperialism while you're at it. You are ignoring Katie N. 's own cultural perspective and claiming you hold some ultimate truth.

Yes I was partially wrong. International (English) Wikipedia is not blocked in China.
However this changes nothing becase Chinese version of Wikipedia is completely blocked in China. English version is available, but which one is more relevant in China?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reacti...ong_and_Taiwan

Activist groups such as the Tiananmen Mothers have faced intense government surveillance for their attempts to hold the CCP accountable for the losses of their family members. Currently, the Chinese government blocks all website based searches in China with any regard to the massacre at Tiananmen Square.

Honestly I don't even know what you're trying to prove there with that post.
That you can access Wikipedia?
How relevant is a foreigner having access to international Wikipedia website with or without VPN when the vast majority of the Chinese population is blocked from accessing it?

Here's some information about how many Chinese speak English language:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ing_population

That's less than 1%. Do you think those people want to visit international, English Wikipedia?

Seriously Bungee, what are you trying to prove here? Even though you've lived in China for a long time, you are not Chinese. You're still the privileged foreigner who has more access than 99+% of the Chinese people, who are being oppressed by their government. That very same governmente is trying to supress historical incidents "to protect their people" (read protect themselves and their interests).


Edit:
Alright so I gave this a test.
I have a Chinese friend who does not speak English at all.
I asked her if she knows what Tiananmen Square is. Her first reponse:
What do you mean? I don't know Tiananmen.
I asked again. Her second response:
It was a war with Japan. We Chinese don't like Japanese.
I told her war with Japan was in the WWII. Her third response:
How do you know history? I don't know.
I asked her again if she doesn't know what happened on Tiananmen Square in 1989. Her fourth response:
I don't know I was too young at that time (She is 45 years old so she was 17 years old).
And finally I asked her if she can find that information online or if it's blocked. Her last response:
I don't know, I don't care about this. Is Melbourne far if you go to Australia?

I didn't want to push more.

[shadowmouse]

English version is available, but which one is more relevant in China?

Baidu!

How relevant is a foreigner having access to international Wikipedia website with or without VPN when the vast majority of the Chinese population is blocked from accessing it?

I'm not going to provide a Cliff Notes version of every post to help you keep up. Bungee is typing this message, Pink is accessing the Internet according to records. The last I checked, she's Chinese. Who picked the ISP? Pink. How did she register? She used her ID. As far as the Internet service provider (the main one for quite a few thousand in this complex knows or cares, bungee is irrelevant. So, don't bother try the privileged foreigner line on.

Here's some information about how many Chinese speak English language:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ing_population

That's less than 1%. Do you think those people want to visit international, English Wikipedia?

Look, there is a reason that Wikipedia is not well accepted as an academic source. You have an opinion. You discount the opinion of others and just keep saying something is oppression, constantly dodging when anyone else points out that your reasoning is based on flawed data and disregards what someone from another culture might perceive.

Now, once again, let's actually take time to look at what you've dragged in. Footnotes, why do the young ones seldom think to read the footnotes? They aren't just there to make the page look pretty. Footnote 22:

100million is Back of Envelope Calculation. Learning English in compulsory in China, and 8% of population goes to University, so approximately 100 million are competent in English, and beyond learners

So, not "that's less than 1%" but rather somewhere upwards of 8% -- using data from 2006. Why "upwards"? Because, disregarding the problem of that data being horribly old, it only calculates a percentage based on college.

Where do non-English speaking (let's not even get into those who speak Russian, German or Portuguese instead) Chinese get their information? Baidu and similar search engines. They also talk to friends, family, and business associates.

Your other points are you once again projecting your interpretation of culture and information. Is this a drinking game where I get to take a shot every time you trot out the word oppression and a double when you decide to speak for what you deem the people of China should want? In this thread, at least three other people have tried to comment on things in Asia that you're ignoring. Asia in general is high context. Yes, "that again" because you're ignoring a basic fact of culture and assuming that the Chinese people are oppressed because you would think yourself oppressed.

I don't think it is favorable to have every country be a carbon copy of western countries because people from western world think countries should be ruled the way they think.

Review your history and contemplate why someone from Vietnam might have an opinion on foreigners telling them how to think. Go back and check, but Katie N. has exposure to foreign education and travel abroad, including travel to China.

Retaining social harmony is enough justification for limiting something. Content that can be considered subversive can and will be banned in such efforts to retain social harmony in many countries. That's considered more important than any individuals freedom. An individual is not separate from and does not exist independently of society, they're a part of it. Society and its needs or wants takes priority over you as an individual and your supposed freedoms.

Another person who is from an Asian culture, explaining the importance they would place on social stability. Again, Freighter has traveled and studied abroad. Neither Freighter nor Katie N. lack a frame of reference.

With tons of disinformation and cult like sects(Falun Gong and others) finding new ways to reach out to unenduacted masses by internet is a huge problem.

Someone currently studying China drew your attention to some specific problems. Before you draw on your deep well of personal opinion to claim there is no danger, I will remind you that the US and other countries are currently grappling with issues stemming from the Internet being used by groups to influence events.

Seriously Bungee, what are you trying to prove here? Even though you've lived in China for a long time, you are not Chinese. You're still the privileged foreigner who has more access than 99+% of the Chinese people, who are being oppressed by their government. That very same governmente is trying to supress historical incidents "to protect their people" (read protect themselves and their interests).

Damn, now I owe myself two more shots! Repeating something that you can't really back up doesn't make it true, it just leaves you caught in your own echo. You know what, I do live here. I've lived here 18 years. I live with an ordinary Chinese woman, one who doesn't speak English. Today, I will go out the door in a little bit and get on the subway with a bunch of ordinary Chinese people. If things work out, I'm going to meet one of my quasi adoptive Chinese daughters for lunch at an international festival she wants to go to. While we are there, we'll meet people from all over the world and talk to them. We'll be exposed to foreigners and their thinking without even logging onto the Internet. Last night, I had drinks with a Chinese guy and there were Winnie the Pooh jokes. Nobody was arrested, and nobody gave a damn.

You can drop the "bungee, you're a privileged foreigner" in the next garbage can. I'm here in country, dealing with Chinese people who aren't on a dating app frequented by foreigners. You really shouldn't have put that ball in play.

Alright so I gave this a test.

No, you badgered someone online and you're posting without considering whether her words mean what you think they do. Chinese people don't like to be embarrassed and they get tired of foreigners constantly bringing things like this up. As I've noted before, I've had students return from abroad and sit in my office crying because they got hounded about something that is in the past, can't be changed, and their family didn't have anything to do with. A common Chinese way to deal with embarrassment is to hope it will go away. Did you consider that she just kept giving you answers that wouldn't embarrass her and hoped you'd drop it?

Let's assume you're examples are really proving what she knew though. "Is Melbourne far if you go to Australia?" I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that her whole education was weak on foreign events. If you were talking to a woman in the US online, and she just had a basic public education, would she know about Kent State? If she did, would she care, given that it happened years ago. Hell, I know American kids who don't care about the Vietnam war anymore.

Tiananmen is a treasured Western obsession. For many Chinese, zero fucks are given because it is history and won't change. Asking about it mainly proves that the North American or European gives an equally zero number of fucks about things like the Cultural Revolution and that's really pretty insulting. I've sat and talked with Chinese who were there at Tiananmen. I've talked to former Red Guard members. If I'm talking to someone close to my age, they may have been sent off for reeducation in the old days. Those people are all still here, still walking around, and still talking.

Be honest, you don't care about Tiananmen either. For you it is the same symbol that it is for many others here, you want to dream that if people only knew there would be rebellion and regime change. Go study history and see how that tends to work out. I'll give you a spoiler -- not really well in many situations. The US is *still* bogged down in the Middle East, long after Dubbya declared mission accomplished. If China were to fall into civil war, the refugees and economic shocks would probably make Sweden's current problems seem pale by comparison. Why should there be a war to install a new government that may or may not be any better (read up on the KMT's days running the place), so you can pat yourself on the back?

[Machismo]

It's amazing how easy it can be to get the targets of oppression to loudly support that oppression.

[shadowmouse]

It's amazing how easy it can be to get the targets of oppression to loudly support that oppression.

Yeah, but Goldman-Sachs and Trump are a different topic. It's funny how a group is "oppressed" when the people who don't have a horse in the race want one result, but they might even be terrorists when those same outsiders want another result. Suu Kyi was really popular and honors were heaped on her, now things have changed and she is being stripped of honors. History is full of such things, that's why I don't put much stock in the word oppression as a catch all.

[Talsar]

Oppressive regime worried that people might talk about how oppressive the regime is.

[Venant]

After seeing what the likes of 4chan has done with the internet, I don't blame anyone who wants to control it, wrong though the idea is.

I don't think it has to do with keeping internet culture out, I think it has to do with keeping out western ideas like multiculturalism, individualism and egalitarianism.

[Theodarzna]

How is decided in the country, not by how the western world thinks it should be ruled according to their ideas.

How would you like it if someone comes to you and says your way of life, what you think, how you act, is wrong and you should change because they think so?

Moreover, it isn't as if the Western Way of life is sustainable.

[Fooliecoolie]

http://bigthink.com/stephen-johnson/...l-credit-score

[Strawberry]

Of course no one gives a shit about Tiananmen, it's far in the past and just like the fall of the Berlin Wall, it's far back in the memory that barely anyone even thinks about it.
It was just brought up as an example of how oppressive a government is, while supressing that information XD

Oh man I am NOT going to continue this discussion. Most people here except a selected few agree that Chinese government is oppressive. Shit I've had Chinese people here approach me and ask to sign a petition so Chinese governemnt would stop oppressing minority religions etc in China.
Most western petitions are about signing stuff against animal abuse.

China need to drop the act. Drop the Great Firewall, stop oppressing the people.
Xi need to be replaced with someone more forward thinking and open. The world doesn't need leaders like him.
I stand by my claim, I am just not going to continue this discussion.

[Machismo]

Yeah, but Goldman-Sachs and Trump are a different topic. It's funny how a group is "oppressed" when the people who don't have a horse in the race want one result, but they might even be terrorists when those same outsiders want another result. Suu Kyi was really popular and honors were heaped on her, now things have changed and she is being stripped of honors. History is full of such things, that's why I don't put much stock in the word oppression as a catch all.

You seem to think I support assholes like Trump, no thanks.

The freedom of speech and expression in China is being significantly restricted. It's not really a subjective issue, it fits the definition.

Here's a thought, opposed oppression, regardless of who is doing it, and who is being targeted.

[Katie N]

You seem to think I support assholes like Trump, no thanks.

The freedom of speech and expression in China is being significantly restricted. It's not really a subjective issue, it fits the definition.

Here's a thought, opposed oppression, regardless of who is doing it, and who is being targeted.

What if you don't think it is oppression and is justified exercise of authority for maintaining stability?

[Machismo]

What if you don't think it is oppression?

The oppressors rarely do.

Of course, I would much prefer to stick with the definition of the word.

The Nazis didn't think what they were doing was oppression, neither did Stalin. People rarely give a shit about oppression, until something they want goes away.

[Katie N]

The oppressors rarely do.

Of course, I would much prefer to stick with the definition of the word.

The Nazis didn't think what they were doing was oppression, neither did Stalin. People rarely give a shit about oppression, until something they want goes away.

The definition is unjust exercise of authority. That's not very objective and is subject to your own ideas of what is justified or unjust.

[Machismo]

The definition is unjust exercise of authority. That's not very objective and is subject to your own ideas of what is justified or unjust.

So, it's good to know Hitler was able to justify his oppression. He certainly felt it was just.

I'm going to go ahead and stick with freedom on this one, thanks.

[NED funded]

What if you don't think it is oppression and is justified exercise of authority for maintaining stability?

In China, Uyghurs and Tibetans live in literal police states (More so for Uyghurs than Tibetans) and they are thrown into literal reeducation camps for every action that might hint dissent. They are being unjustly treated and that the majority of the population doesn't think that their suffering is necessary for their own benefit (because its not benefiting those groups who still live in dirt poverty) doesn't stop it from being oppression. Not everything is subjective to the whims of the majority as you seem to imply, some actions are wrong regardless of how many people approve of it.