There is NO ilvl difference between 8/8M raiders and 0/8 M players

[Narzok]

they didnt change anything.

PTR has content up to new mini raid

meaning this 400 itlv gear you see there most probably will come when mini raid will be up

there was no statement anywhere that gear will scale to 400 itlv on launch of DA raid

it is on the front page right now.

"...Here’s a succinct summary of what is and isn’t changing next week, when Battle of Dazar’alor opens on Normal and Heroic difficulties, and PvP and M+ Season 2 begin:..."

so yes, the ilvl changes mentioned a few posts back do indeed come with BoD

[Onikaroshi]

they didnt change anything.

PTR has content up to new mini raid

meaning this 400 itlv gear you see there most probably will come when mini raid will be up

there was no statement anywhere that gear will scale to 400 itlv on launch of DA raid

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decide on 1 - ether its easy or hard

and if it would be easy you wouldnt need extrenal sources to know what to do and how to do it in order to do well in game.

wow is failing horribly in this regard exackly because its catering to hardcore crowd playing this game for 15 year

I should have specified 8.1 PTR, not 8.1.5 that's up now.

[Elias01]

Blue post just confirmed you are wrong.

All world content scaling up to 385 only.

The only 400 items the lesser non raiding scrubs will be 1 every 3-4 weeks with darkshore and a chance at one every 3-4 weeks with darkshore world boss.

So yeah, I'm 3 months they "may" have 4-6 slots of heroic gear while the raiders will be drowning in 415 gear immediately.

Discusion wasnt about how long it will take to get high end gear but about why casuals getting high end gear. It doesnt matter if it will take 1 month or 6 months you should never owned this type of gear ever if you dont do mythic content period. And yes i am casual i do no raid or do mythic+ and i dont want to be getting 400+ gear from anything what isnt mythic+ or raiding. If you are casual what does nothing but world content you know usual stuff you should be hitting at this 355 itemlvl max.

[kamuimac]

Discusion wasnt about how long it will take to get high end gear but about why casuals getting high end gear. It doesnt matter if it will take 1 month or 6 months you should never owned this type of gear ever if you dont do mythic content period. And yes i am casual i do no raid or do mythic+ and i dont want to be getting 400+ gear from anything what isnt mythic+ or raiding. If you are casual what does nothing but world content you know usual stuff you should be hitting at this 355 itemlvl max.

then you are playing wrong game.

mmorpgs and rpg have been always since its inception in form of classic paper rpgs at its core games where you obtianed gear to uterly trivialise content you are doin .

you should go play some arpgs - i have a feeling you would be much happier there.

[Elias01]

then you are playing wrong game.

mmorpgs and rpg have been always since its inception in form of classic paper rpgs at its core games where you obtianed gear to uterly trivialise content you are doin .

you should go play some arpgs - i have a feeling you would be much happier there.

I dont rember getting high end get during TBC or Vannila for doing trivial content. Yes you should obrain gear and no you should not obtain high end gear beocuse of lucky tiatnforging or doing trivial content as warfront. Looks like it is you who forgot what are mmorpgs about.

[Ange]

I dont rember getting high end get during TBC or Vannila for doing trivial content. Yes you should obrain gear and no you should not obtain high end gear beocuse of lucky tiatnforging or doing trivial content as warfront. Looks like it is you who forgot what are mmorpgs about.

Vanilla had a very steep scaling for blue gear and stat allocation was not bad on pvp gear. Blue pvp gear ~= T1 epics and epic pvp gear was for some specs equal or better as T2. The scaling in character power was not that huge, as it is now, since many abilitys didnt even scale from secondary stats, some didnt even scale at all. Blue vs Epic T2.5-T3 geared was not that huge as people might believe and the lack of real burst DPS made the difference even smaller.

Current WoW is pretty stupid from a balancing standpoint, since nearly everything scales and you have pretty huge differences in class mechanics for DPS - HUGE burst DPS with zero setup vs ramp-up-specs with no burst. With the same ilvl, same optimal stat allocations 2 specs can be very far appart in short fights and its even worse when burst DPS specs are allowed to scale in AoE situations too.

Vanilla balance had not to deal with exceptions like the DH class and range vs melee was kept in check by the lack of range dps gear.

[Loxotron]

Vanilla had a very steep scaling for blue gear and stat allocation was not bad on pvp gear. Blue pvp gear ~= T1 epics and epic pvp gear was for some specs equal or better as T2. The scaling in character power was not that huge, as it is now, since many abilitys didnt even scale from secondary stats, some didnt even scale at all. Blue vs Epic T2.5-T3 geared was not that huge as people might believe and the lack of real burst DPS made the difference even smaller.

Current WoW is pretty stupid from a balancing standpoint, since nearly everything scales and you have pretty huge differences in class mechanics for DPS - HUGE burst DPS with zero setup vs ramp-up-specs with no burst. With the same ilvl, same optimal stat allocations 2 specs can be very far appart in short fights and its even worse when burst DPS specs are allowed to scale in AoE situations too.

Vanilla balance had not to deal with exceptions like the DH class and range vs melee was kept in check by the lack of range dps gear.

What it has to do with obtaining high end gear for free? Yes the itemization was radicaly different but there were no free gear for doing content where you can't even lose... that's the whole point of Elias post.

But if you touched itemization topic i would really prefer TBC one over the bs we have in place now with all this stupid scaling systems... especially pvp scaling system which is utter ridiculous.

[Elias01]

Vanilla had a very steep scaling for blue gear and stat allocation was not bad on pvp gear. Blue pvp gear ~= T1 epics and epic pvp gear was for some specs equal or better as T2. The scaling in character power was not that huge, as it is now, since many abilitys didnt even scale from secondary stats, some didnt even scale at all. Blue vs Epic T2.5-T3 geared was not that huge as people might believe and the lack of real burst DPS made the difference even smaller.

Current WoW is pretty stupid from a balancing standpoint, since nearly everything scales and you have pretty huge differences in class mechanics for DPS - HUGE burst DPS with zero setup vs ramp-up-specs with no burst. With the same ilvl, same optimal stat allocations 2 specs can be very far appart in short fights and its even worse when burst DPS specs are allowed to scale in AoE situations too.

Vanilla balance had not to deal with exceptions like the DH class and range vs melee was kept in check by the lack of range dps gear.

Yes but you compare vannila pvp to afk warfront. Yes vannila had other sources of gear what was at level of tier sets. But you actualy had to play game not just log in afk for 30 minutes olaaa free hero gear.

[Ange]

What it has to do with obtaining high end gear for free? Yes the itemization was radicaly different but there were no free gear for doing content where you can't even lose... that's the whole point of Elias post.

Yes but you compare vannila pvp to afk warfront. Yes vannila had other sources of gear what was at level of tier sets. But you actualy had to play game not just log in afk for 30 minutes olaaa free hero gear.

You clearly forgot the FISHING in vanilla-BG's or the simple AUTO_RUNNING for HOURS in BG's just to get honor/rank/free-blue-gear for NOTHING, you didn't even have to be close to your PC, since most AFK mechanics were missing.

Current WoW at least forces you to play for FREE GEAR, in the past is was not even needed to even sit before your screen.

Even most R14 players were AFK-winning their grind with zero consequences, since Blizzard did not care for PvP cheating/wintrading/AFKing for a very long time. Accountsharing was commonly used for the honor farm without any bans, it was ridiculous - casual players who did not raid, not farm, did nothing, had blue/epic gear from PvP without doing any BGs themselfs.

You guys heave clearly no idea how ridiculous and unregulated the game was back then.

[Elias01]

You clearly forgot the FISHING in vanilla-BG's or the simple AUTO_RUNNING for HOURS in BG's just to get honor/rank/free-blue-gear for NOTHING, you didn't even have to be close to your PC, since most AFK mechanics were missing.

Current WoW at least forces you to play for FREE GEAR, in the past is was not even needed to even sit before your screen.

Even most R14 players were AFK-winning their grind with zero consequences, since Blizzard did not care for PvP cheating/wintrading/AFKing for a very long time. Accountsharing was commonly used for the honor farm without any bans, it was ridiculous - casual players who did not raid, not farm, did nothing, had blue/epic gear from PvP without doing any BGs themselfs.

You guys heave clearly no idea how ridiculous and unregulated the game was back then.

You talking about 1/100000 of playerbase.

[Ange]

You talking about 1/100000 of playerbase.

The amount of massive game changes because of this doesnt match your "1/100000 of playerbase".

[Elias01]

The amount of massive game changes because of this doesnt match your "1/100000 of playerbase".

Yes it does.

[kamuimac]

I dont rember getting high end get during TBC or Vannila for doing trivial content. Yes you should obrain gear and no you should not obtain high end gear beocuse of lucky tiatnforging or doing trivial content as warfront. Looks like it is you who forgot what are mmorpgs about.

and you claim you played TBC ?

wow - im sure all those groups farming Karazhan till the end of expansion were doin it just for lols not for badges from there .

here you go your trivial content for high end gear .

lets go further back - vanilla and everybody farming bgs for pvp gear . naaah they were again doin it for lols not for extremly strong gear.

[Elias01]

and you claim you played TBC ?

wow - im sure all those groups farming Karazhan till the end of expansion were doin it just for lols not for badges from there .

here you go your trivial content for high end gear .

lets go further back - vanilla and everybody farming bgs for pvp gear . naaah they were again doin it for lols not for extremly strong gear.

So now you compare Karazhan where you actualy had to play game to afk warfronts? Ok. If you really think completing Karazhan was easyer or at same level of difficulty as warfront than there is no point talking to you.

[kamuimac]

So now you compare Karazhan where you actualy had to play game to afk warfronts? Ok. If you really think completing Karazhan was easyer or at same level of difficulty as warfront than there is no point talking to you.

dunno - maybe with the way you play WF with the way i play them with trying to solo all "points" and commanders its plenty chalenging

[rohoz]

I dont rember getting high end get during TBC or Vannila for doing trivial content. Yes you should obrain gear and no you should not obtain high end gear beocuse of lucky tiatnforging or doing trivial content as warfront. Looks like it is you who forgot what are mmorpgs about.

you don't remember ioqd badge vendor?

[temple1906]

you don't remember ioqd badge vendor?

The point he is making, is that you still had to do content to obtain the badges. Yes Kara was trivial for a lot of people back then and used to farm badges, but you couldn't just sit AFK for 30 minutes and get something. Yes, you could farm PvP in Vanilla for gear by AFKing but you weren't guaranteed a piece every time and you had to spend all of your time doing so for it to work. WFs require you to simply log in when Blizzard tells you to, and sit for 30 minutes for free loot every single time. That's ridiculouss. All these ways to get loot has just devalued loot. The game is just a numbers simulator at this point. People point the finger at a number of different problems, but the real problem is that nobody feels like they can progress their characters at the rate they're comfortable with. It used to be that you played the game at your own level and at your own pace whenever you logged in. All levels of play had something to do that matched how they wanted to pace themselves. If I only wanted to casually raid T4 in TBC there were HUNDREDS of guilds that I could join to do exactly that. If I want to casually do anything in BfA I need absolutely nobody. No guild, not friends, no NOTHING. The character progression only makes sense for the casual player now, as gear is paced to give them a constant drip. But what about the regular or hardcore players? Gear that comes in at a steady drip for the casual player rains from the sky on the players that are more invested into the game. You quickly outgear content and get funneled into either Mythic raiding or Mythic+ (lets be honest, it's both). Pretty quickly, the actual rewards from Mythic/+ stop becoming useful and the only thing you do them for is the achievment for having done them. But those achievments have no functional impact on your character in any way. They are a personal motivation.

[craigw]

I don't see how anyone can say gearing alts is hard. I hit 120 on my DK 3 days ago, the next day I was 355. three days in I am 369. ridiculously easy. and I am not purchasing one thing off the AH. I make what I need myself. and if you say no one cares about logs then its clear you don't parse and have no logs to show. people who are good care about logs. people who are shit say..."who cares about logs"

[rohoz]

The point he is making, is that you still had to do content to obtain the badges. Yes Kara was trivial for a lot of people back then and used to farm badges, but you couldn't just sit AFK for 30 minutes and get something. Yes, you could farm PvP in Vanilla for gear by AFKing but you weren't guaranteed a piece every time and you had to spend all of your time doing so for it to work. WFs require you to simply log in when Blizzard tells you to, and sit for 30 minutes for free loot every single time. That's ridiculouss. All these ways to get loot has just devalued loot. The game is just a numbers simulator at this point. People point the finger at a number of different problems, but the real problem is that nobody feels like they can progress their characters at the rate they're comfortable with. It used to be that you played the game at your own level and at your own pace whenever you logged in. All levels of play had something to do that matched how they wanted to pace themselves. If I only wanted to casually raid T4 in TBC there were HUNDREDS of guilds that I could join to do exactly that. If I want to casually do anything in BfA I need absolutely nobody. No guild, not friends, no NOTHING. The character progression only makes sense for the casual player now, as gear is paced to give them a constant drip. But what about the regular or hardcore players? Gear that comes in at a steady drip for the casual player rains from the sky on the players that are more invested into the game. You quickly outgear content and get funneled into either Mythic raiding or Mythic+ (lets be honest, it's both). Pretty quickly, the actual rewards from Mythic/+ stop becoming useful and the only thing you do them for is the achievment for having done them. But those achievments have no functional impact on your character in any way. They are a personal motivation.

you could pug dogshit content like T4 pretty easily, though.

[klepp0906]

I think a lot of the issue there stems from how quickly characters cap out and how fast blizzard cannibalizes content.

Raider io isn't the solution, it's just the same problem with a different name. Plenty of times I've grouped with 1k folks that are just terrible and force my group to go into hardcore carry mode. Unless we want to kick and just straight up concede the key (and be jerks) then we're just making the problem worse by helping contribute to his inflated io score. (that doesn't talk to folks that buy runs either)

But then going back to what I mean about "characters cap out too quickly", think about how long it took for good players to hit 380 ilvl? We had folks walking into mythic raids that were already 380+ which means the bar is pretty low for others to catch up, and blizz makes it faster and faster for them to catch up before making it all completely useless with the new 'season' of raids/PvP.

I wonder what others think about this model? In older variations like Vanilla and TBC, you didn't get (as many of) those catch up mechanics. If you wanted to raid AQ40, you had to go through BWL first at the very least but generally started in MC.

This. you want to raid BfD, then raid uldir first. Would keep people playing longer, and leave at least some margin between people who put effort into the game, and ppl who just smash keys with their face.