Who has a cross to bear?
It’s not me, dude.
At least I’ve approached this issue with a modicum of good faith.
Can you say the same?
The EU does not want the backstop to come into effect either, it gives an extraordinary economic advantage to Northern Ireland by allowing it complete access to both the EU and UK markets and is not something that would ever normally be offered - but then Northern Ireland is hardly normal and the EU is committed to the GFA (unlike the DUP and large elements of the Conservative Party).
Idiotic brexity politicians in the UK (and idiots like you who parrot their pathetic arguments as if they are worth repeating) need to spend less time complaining about the evil backstop, and more time seriously thinking about what the UK is going to do to remove the requirement for the backstop while still maintaining the GFA, once any transition period ends (outside of going to war with the EU, which is presumably the Mark 'thick as shit and too stupid to realise it' Francois solution).
I'm just going to say this because we had a fairly constructive dialog going tonight before it devolved into mud slinging in the hope that we can avoid pages of bickering when people get back into the thread tomorrow. Pann isn't a Brexiteer and he was putting the argument down for what I can only assume was academic reasons. It's bad enough when the burner gets on and starts calling every one cunts, lets at least stop with the insults to fellow posters when people are just presenting the argument.
In saying that, Mark Francois also seems to be a rather odious piece of shit. It's unsurprising that he ranks so highly within the ERG.
Biggest joke in this thread (outside of Brexit, obviously )
Fortunately he has had me blocked for the last two years, so it is very doubtful that any faux outrage is coming tomorrow (towards me anyway, presumably @LeGin Tufnel will not be so lucky)
At this point, repeating and reinforcing a nonsensical argument is equally as disingenuous as creating that argument in the first place.
Last edited by Dizzeeyooo; 2019-04-10 at 12:20 AM.
You do you but they claim to have voted Remain and all I see is someone with penchant for playing devil's advocate. But you do you and I'm done interjecting myself between other posters.
I don't think we are well served pretending that when placed in adversarial role the EU has any reason to treat the UK favourably. Coming back to what you are saying about NI being placed in an amazing situation if the backstop were to be triggered though, you need to get on the phone to Sammy and Arlene because that was their last manifesto and yet they keep voting the WA down.
Brexiters are the only ones claiming that the EU is our enemy in this process - can you give examples of where the EU has treated the UK "unfavorably" so far, outside of their own rules on what is possible for non member states?
Is this a Pann style joke or do you actually not understand the motivations of the DUP?
The UK had 3 years to come up with a better solution. The best thing they came up with was the backstop. Since the EU couldn't think of anything better, they accepted. If anyone has a better idea, I'm pretty fucking certain the EU would accept it at this point.
However, the problem is not really that difficult to understand:
1. The UK wants to keep the union intact.
2. The GFA demands no border between RoI and NI.
3. The UK wants to close all borders to the EU.
4. The border between RoI and NI is a border of the EU/UK.
Wait, I'll boil this down so even Dribs gets it: The UK wants to both close and open the border between RoI and NI simultaneously. But only for stuff they like.
This is a gordic knot. It's a textbook example of a gordic knot. Solve it and you may well get the peace nobel prize.
Users with <20 posts and ignored shitposters are automatically invisible. Find out how to do that here and help clean up MMO-OT!
PSA: Being a volunteer is no excuse to make a shite job of it.
Did I say they have? Why do you think that when/if the UK leaves the EU that the EU is under any obligation to treat the UK favourably? I'm pretty sure Slant and Acidbaron will have fun debating this with you.
It was a joke, but it's also in their manifesto if you care to read the section on Brexit (that being a privileged position as an intermediary between the UK and the EU).
Last edited by Dizzeeyooo; 2019-04-10 at 12:46 AM.
Unlike the limited access they have to both the EU and the UK right now? Oh wait... yep, that's what we call a flaw in your logic. The EU doesn't give two shits about giving access to NI or the UK. It's what the EU always wanted. If the UK wants to give up voting rights and control over regulations in favour of "taking back control" (that's some British thinking right there), while at the same time following EU rules and basically everything "trade" staying the same... heck, that's not the worst outcome.
Users with <20 posts and ignored shitposters are automatically invisible. Find out how to do that here and help clean up MMO-OT!
PSA: Being a volunteer is no excuse to make a shite job of it.
As in, an advantage compared to the rest of the UK in a hypothetical future where the UK signs the withdrawal agreement, spends the transition period complaining about how unfair the withdrawal agreement is, and then exits the EU into a bare minimum customs union while NI remains in the backstop.
Last edited by Dizzeeyooo; 2019-04-10 at 12:49 AM.
Because you're saying that the Brexiteer argument that the EU could trap us in the backstop because as everyone agrees, the NI/RoI border issue is unsolvable is disingenuous bunk.
However if we are talking at cross purposes here and we actually agree that if we Brexit then counting on the EU to play nice with the backstop would be naive at best then, cool. :thumbsup:
The irony is that WA v2 actually proposed a neutral arbitration for the backstop ensuring that BOTH sides acted in good faith, but of course the HoC rejected that as well.....
I'm saying that because it is disingenuous bunk.
If they don't want the backstop, they can propose something else that exists today that solves the NI problem, and the backstop will never need to be triggered. They can't do that (because nothing else does exist today) but can't admit that, so instead they resort to talking crap about "the UK being trapped in the backstop".
You realise there is a 3rd option between favorably and unfavorably, right?
Last edited by Dizzeeyooo; 2019-04-10 at 12:58 AM.
The ERG have a highly confrontational view of the EU. They believe that if the EU can exploit us, they will exploit us. They believe that now even whilst we are a part of it for heavens sake. It doesn't make them wrong on the issue though, it's still a legitimate theoretical. The difference between you and them is that you believe the EU wouldn't and they believe it would.
Not really sure what point you're trying to make here. Baring your throat to a potential adversary is irresponsible statecraft. You cannot count on the goodwill of your competitors. The PD is, non binding, it's within the powers of both the EU and the next UK Govt to turn this nasty if they so wish.
Good for the ERG. Why does anyone not in the ERG (and/or not still clinging to a unicorn Brexit) care?
Believe me, outside of you trying to defend Pann the feeling is mutual.
And now you sound like Mark Francois, trying to fill empty space with pointless soundbites.
Last edited by Dizzeeyooo; 2019-04-10 at 01:12 AM.
The only backstop seriously on the table is keeping the UK as a whole in the agreement. You can't split the union. The EU realises that. Unlike the UK, the EU has no truck with fantasies.
- - - Updated - - -
It is, but from all the shitty options, it's the least shitty option, simply sacrificing the Brexiteers fantasy of "sovereignity" for a solution that actually keeps everything else working and intact.
Still think we should end it this Friday, though. It time to end this.
Users with <20 posts and ignored shitposters are automatically invisible. Find out how to do that here and help clean up MMO-OT!
PSA: Being a volunteer is no excuse to make a shite job of it.