What is normal DPS in full Naxx gear

[Charge me Doctor]

You can find it however you want to find it, but that's how top guild are going to play on Classic. If you dont care about top guilds it's fine, but please dont go into discussions about the stuff you dont know about/not interested in.

Granted that classic will use private server values and db, which are sketchy as fuck, coming from someone, who used to work on one.

[kenoathcarn]

That's why i find private server stats hilarious. DW tanking and bear tanks.

ittl be like this on live before too long, when your dps are min maxing and bosses are dieing in under a minute why do you need to mitigate damage when your healers can spam high ranks and not oom.

I guess that's why there are barely any parces of druids beating 2k TPS, and pretty much any decent warrior can do it?

there are barely any parses because like i said druids are worse tanks.

way more risky to stoneshield mid boss attempt compared to war, aoe threat sucks compared to war + force reactive disk cant challenging wall/challenging limited invuln potion, harder to survive rage phases (no last stand or lifegiving gem), as offtank druid cant wear axes so no nightfall/anihilator debuff(war spamming hamstring has pretty good uptime). etc etc.

as i said before they are worse tanks, but single target threat is not the reason.

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Granted that classic will use private server values and db, which are sketchy as fuck, coming from someone, who used to work on one.

what? classic will use original vanilla db values... its just the evolution of min maxing mentality from players.

when everyone is using consumes, when everyone is maximising debuff slot usage(proper ignite usage, nightfall, anihilator etc.), when everyone is taking advantage of world buffs, when you don't bring useless classes and 20-50% of your raid isn't dead weight then bosses die way quicker, that's just a fact, even if the values are wrong from pserv to classic it wont make much of a difference, will it matter that bosses are dieing in 1minute 15 seconds instead of 1minute? not really.

[Thunderball]

Granted that classic will use private server values and db, which are sketchy as fuck, coming from someone, who used to work on one.

Wont change anything in the large picture. Yea, warriors might not be that ahead if armor values are higher (which I very much doubt, I suspect they're actually lower), but they also might be a lot more ahead if, let's say, Ironfoe procrate is much higher.

[Storfan]

You forgot addons and better latency (and connectivity in general). Nothing worse than having your mana burned into overheal, because you failed to interrupt your cast due to latency spike, and now you wasted mana and it seems that tank got hit by parry double attack.

Can confirm. Back in vanilla I played on an unstable ADSL connection with 80-200ms. Now I'm on a rock solid fiber connection and 25-30ms.

[Charge me Doctor]

Wont change anything in the large picture. Yea, warriors might not be that ahead if armor values are higher (which I very much doubt, I suspect they're actually lower), but they also might be a lot more ahead if, let's say, Ironfoe procrate is much higher.

There is still a lot of problems on most modified mangos builds, say, lightning shield not consuming stormstrike, or cold snap sometimes not resetting ice block, or some mobs giving or not giving appropriate reputation. Most things on private servers are guesswork, it's not just armour values, it's also various interactions between mechanics (some procs from items/trinkets should be using spell power, but on private servers they either don't or scale poorly), resistances, weapon skills, warrior shouts not generating threat, etc.

Who knows what stuff they got wrong too? Nobody. Is there any way to check it? Nope, since there is very little documented things about vanilla (especially considering that blizzard weren't all happy to share their DB values with the world like they do now)

[Storfan]

There is still a lot of problems on most modified mangos builds, say, lightning shield not consuming stormstrike, or cold snap sometimes not resetting ice block, or some mobs giving or not giving appropriate reputation. Most things on private servers are guesswork, it's not just armour values, it's also various interactions between mechanics (some procs from items/trinkets should be using spell power, but on private servers they either don't or scale poorly), resistances, weapon skills, warrior shouts not generating threat, etc.

Who knows what stuff they got wrong too? Nobody. Is there any way to check it? Nope, since there is very little documented things about vanilla (especially considering that blizzard weren't all happy to share their DB values with the world like they do now)

Adding to that: The 16-30 extra nature damage of Thunderfury (Not the proc) is to my knowledge not working on any private mangos-server. Supposedly on retail, the nature damage should get past a paladin physical shield (dont recall the spell name) while the physical hit should be absorbed. I have TF on both private server and on retail but I havnt tested this thesis.

[Thunderball]

Adding to that: The 16-30 extra nature damage of Thunderfury (Not the proc) is to my knowledge not working on any private mangos-server. Supposedly on retail, the nature damage should get past a paladin physical shield (dont recall the spell name) while the physical hit should be absorbed. I have TF on both private server and on retail but I havnt tested this thesis.

You couldnt land any weapon procs on a target with BoP active, even if the procs itself are not physical. However you can, in theory, land it on a target in close proximity of BoP'd target and have it chain.

[Charge me Doctor]

You couldnt land any weapon procs on a target with BoP active, even if the procs itself are not physical. However you can, in theory, land it on a target in close proximity of BoP'd target and have it chain.

I believe he is talking about elemental damage that goes with physical damage. It's not a proc, it's literally magic damage on top of physical listed in the weapon itself. Like searing arrows bow. And this damage should actually proc chain lightning according to that guy:
https://web.archive.org/web/20051211...ml?witem=19019
ctrl+f to "through physical invulnerabilities"

[Thunderball]

There is still a lot of problems on most modified mangos builds, say, lightning shield not consuming stormstrike, or cold snap sometimes not resetting ice block, or some mobs giving or not giving appropriate reputation. Most things on private servers are guesswork, it's not just armour values, it's also various interactions between mechanics (some procs from items/trinkets should be using spell power, but on private servers they either don't or scale poorly), resistances, weapon skills, warrior shouts not generating threat, etc.

Who knows what stuff they got wrong too? Nobody. Is there any way to check it? Nope, since there is very little documented things about vanilla (especially considering that blizzard weren't all happy to share their DB values with the world like they do now)

Yeah, there's a lot of stuff that will work differently, but all of them are rather minor. The only major bug that can affect raid dps significantly would be expose armor bug.

There's also a lot of stuff people assume should be in Classic and private servers are wrong on (and for some both of them are), but it's actually the other way around because it was changed during vanilla. For example:
- /sit automatic crits affecting talent procs. Some people think that it's supposed to work, and it actually works on most private servers, but that's not supposed to work and wont work on Classic.
- Battle Shout AoE tanking. Was fixed in either 1.11 or 1.12. Doesnt work on most private servers.
- Procs/trinkets scaling with spell power. Was fixed in 1.11 due to Shard of the Fallen Star being OP.
- Negative resistances and spell penetration in PvE. Was changed in 1.9. Spell penetration pretty much never worked in PvE in vanilla due to most bosses having low enough resistance to be lowered close to 0 by Curse of Shadow/Elements.

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I believe he is talking about elemental damage that goes with physical damage. It's not a proc, it's literally magic damage on top of physical listed in the weapon itself. Like searing arrows bow. And this damage should actually proc chain lightning according to that guy:
https://web.archive.org/web/20051211...ml?witem=19019
ctrl+f to "through physical invulnerabilities"

Yeah this should work.

[Charge me Doctor]

Yeah, there's a lot of stuff that will work differently, but all of them are rather minor. The only major bug that can affect raid dps significantly would be expose armor bug.

The point is - they get a lot of things wrong, some of these are quite visible and "minor", some of them may be invisible and "major". Like boss parry chance for one. Or raw damage. Or resistance formula. Or hit chance formula. Or scaling values. Since most of stuff was stored on the server side and we had no way of knowing how exactly it worked.

Blizzard on the other hand have an opportunity to get original information, which may very well make things quite different.

There's also a lot of stuff people assume should be in Classic and private servers are wrong on (and for some both of them are), but it's actually the other way around because it was changed during vanilla. For example:
- /sit automatic crits affecting talent procs. Some people think that it's supposed to work, and it actually works on most private servers, but that's not supposed to work and wont work on Classic.
- Battle Shout AoE tanking. Was fixed in either 1.11 or 1.12. Doesnt work on most private servers.
- Procs/trinkets scaling with spell power. Was fixed in 1.11 due to Shard of the Fallen Star being OP.
- Negative resistances and spell penetration in PvE. Was changed in 1.9. Spell penetration pretty much never worked in PvE in vanilla due to most bosses having low enough resistance to be lowered close to 0 by Curse of Shadow/Elements.

Battle shout threat was nerfed in 2.x.y. or something, dunno what do you mean by it being fixed tho.
Again, procs and trinkets were scaling with spell power as intended, what do you mean by "fixed"?

[Storfan]

You couldnt land any weapon procs on a target with BoP active, even if the procs itself are not physical. However you can, in theory, land it on a target in close proximity of BoP'd target and have it chain.

I believe he is talking about elemental damage that goes with physical damage. It's not a proc, it's literally magic damage on top of physical listed in the weapon itself. Like searing arrows bow. And this damage should actually proc chain lightning according to that guy:
https://web.archive.org/web/20051211...ml?witem=19019
ctrl+f to "through physical invulnerabilities"

------------------------------------------------------------
Thunderfury, Blessed Blade of the Windseeker
Binds when picked up
Unique
One-hand Sword
44 - 115 Damage Speed 1.90
+16 - 30 Nature Damage <---------- This is the portion I was referencing.
(53.9 damage per second)
+5 Agility
+8 Stamina
+8 Fire Resistance
+9 Nature Resistance
Durability 125 / 125
Requires Level 60
Chance on hit: Blasts your enemy with lightning, dealing 300 Nature damage and then jumping to additional nearby enemies. Each jump reduces that victim's Nature resistance by 25. Affects 5 targets. Your primary target is also consumed by a cyclone, slowing its attack speed by 20% for 12 sec.
------------------------------------------------------------

[Whistl3r]

People still cry arsing about sub-optimal specs in vanilla. Bring whoever the fuck you want, as long as they dont die to stupid shit you will clear everything even if you have a ret pally, and a couple of non healing druids. We cleared most of everything with a rogue who would couldn't do the safety dance and a warrior who would pull agro and die at least four times a raid. Guess who did more damage than those dead fellas? the kitty and ret pally.
Enjoy vanilla for what it is and leave all the elitist min maxing shit for retail where 1st kills matter (to some people).

[Piesor]

- /sit automatic crits affecting talent procs. Some people think that it's supposed to work, and it actually works on most private servers, but that's not supposed to work and wont work on Classic.

It's funny how everybody quotes this info that was written in a comment from Blizzard.
You definitely had a 100% crit chance on a sitting target back in Vanilla. I always used this to have a 100% crit opener with my Rogue. I did not attack when my targets were fighting, I attacked when they were regenerating. After the first hit the target stood up automatically (also if afk). I would bet anything I got on this and I am totally confused that nobody remembers this, especially because so many people pretend that they played Vanilla (Bliizard client).

[Bloodyleech]

It's funny how everybody quotes this info that was written in a comment from Blizzard.
You definitely had a 100% crit chance on a sitting target back in Vanilla. I always used this to have a 100% crit opener with my Rogue. I did not attack when my targets were fighting, I attacked when they were regenerating. After the first hit the target stood up automatically (also if afk). I would bet anything I got on this and I am totally confused that nobody remembers this, especially because so many people pretend that they played Vanilla (Bliizard client).

No one said that you couldn't crit 100% when someone sits. The quote litterally says "automatic crits affecting talent procs".

[Pua]

Because the Ilvl Jump wasn't as massive between Vanilla/TBC. Those Numbers aren't really inflated.

Yes, they are.

I recall the amount of DPS people were doing outside of specific incidents that grossly inflated it. They were doing nowhere near the numbers quoted in the OP.

[Akka]

Only Blizzard has that data, and because we can assume they couldnt even save their own patch files and servers, i doubt they would save that type of data.

Wut ?
Of course that Blizzard has their own patch files and servers, on what do you think they are starting from for Classic ? Youtube videos ?

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The guy is horde and with no worldbuffs though. Worldbuffs make an absolutely HUGE difference.

Should we consider a full bar of buffs and extremely pricey consummables to be "NORMAL" dps, though ?

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1. Armor has nothing to do with crushing blows. Contrary to popular belief full prot spec gives you nothing in terms of survivability, but your threat is a lot higher if geared probably. Obviously you take more damage while DW tanking but that's just an issue of healers being good enough.

Armor has nothing to do with crushing blows, but having a shield and activating "shield block" has everything to do with. Dual-wielding to increase threat means you WILL get crushing (and crit) in the face. If healers are powerful enough it might be survivable, but it's certainly a lot more damage to heal.
I'd guess the central point is that they are able to kill the boss fast enough that it makes up for the increased healing required.

[Atherions]

Should we consider a full bar of buffs and extremely pricey consummables to be "NORMAL" dps, though ?

Not when trying to estimate dps in dungeon blue gear but people doing naxx are going to be using a lot of consumables. Unbuffed DPS is irrelevant at a naxx level

[Akka]

How come latency doesn't change much? I mean, i understand that it's hard to remember when internet was shit, but stuff like having your ping oscillate between 600 and 2000 wasn't something not usual

Guess it depends on what you call "unusual". I mean, I had some shitty nights with 300 ms ping, and it happened sometimes that I had huge 800 ms ping, that I just considered "unplayable" and was playing only because we were nearly never able to fill all 40 spots. But it WAS pretty uncommon, and the VAST majority of the time I was under 100.

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Not when trying to estimate dps in dungeon blue gear but people doing naxx are going to be using a lot of consumables. Unbuffed DPS is irrelevant at a naxx level

There is a huge gap between "using a number of buffs" and "using each and every possible buff, including world buffs". The latter was definitely NOT "normal", even at high-end Naxx level.

[garicasha]

People still cry arsing about sub-optimal specs in vanilla. Bring whoever the fuck you want, as long as they dont die to stupid shit you will clear everything even if you have a ret pally, and a couple of non healing druids. We cleared most of everything with a rogue who would couldn't do the safety dance and a warrior who would pull agro and die at least four times a raid. Guess who did more damage than those dead fellas? the kitty and ret pally.
Enjoy vanilla for what it is and leave all the elitist min maxing shit for retail where 1st kills matter (to some people).

For people coming from modern WoW they might not realize how unbalanced the classes are. Most the people here know. You're (correctly) arguing that a raid with a ret pally and a couple of non-healing druids would do fine. But there's a hidden assumption you've made that people already know that rogues, warriors, and fire mages are optimal DPS.

Someone coming from modern WoW would expect a raid of feral druids, shadow priests, ret paladins, and elemental shamans to do roughly the same DPS as any other raid makeup. Most specs in modern WoW are within 10% of each other when averaged over a whole raid tier.

This was NOT the case in vanilla.

My goal is to try to communicate to new players some of the differences, so that if they choose to raid they know classes aren't going to be perceived the same way they are on live. But really I just wish the game would come out so instead of pontificating on random BS on a forum I could play it.

[Thunderball]

It's funny how everybody quotes this info that was written in a comment from Blizzard.
You definitely had a 100% crit chance on a sitting target back in Vanilla. I always used this to have a 100% crit opener with my Rogue. I did not attack when my targets were fighting, I attacked when they were regenerating. After the first hit the target stood up automatically (also if afk). I would bet anything I got on this and I am totally confused that nobody remembers this, especially because so many people pretend that they played Vanilla (Bliizard client).

You get a crit, yes, but you dont get talent procs.

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Armor has nothing to do with crushing blows, but having a shield and activating "shield block" has everything to do with. Dual-wielding to increase threat means you WILL get crushing (and crit) in the face. If healers are powerful enough it might be survivable, but it's certainly a lot more damage to heal.
I'd guess the central point is that they are able to kill the boss fast enough that it makes up for the increased healing required.

Ofc, but it's still very easy to heal on most bosses, especially if you utility Imp LoH.

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There is a huge gap between "using a number of buffs" and "using each and every possible buff, including world buffs". The latter was definitely NOT "normal", even at high-end Naxx level.

World buffing was 100% normal for Naxx progress.