True enough. It's my hope that by explaining my point of view, you might be convinced that while the underlying concept of Pathfinder is decent, the implementation of it needs a lot of work. I think we mostly agree on this, but I'm going to expand on my reasoning for the sake of discussion and understanding.
I also like having goals to work towards, both short and long-term ones. However, the problem I see with Pathfinder is that the goal largely has nothing to do with the work the player is actually doing. If Pathfinder was not hard-locked behind a 9-12 month arbitrary wait, I'd probably agree with you on that point. But because if the time-gate, it robs the player of that goal, making all work done towards it pointless until Blizzard flips the switch. That's a pretty serious flaw, in my eyes.
Because of the way Pathfinder is implemented, both in terms of how much of the game you have complete, and how long you're required to wait, the "reward" loses value. Yes, flying may be more pleasant than being on the ground, but all you're doing is flying to content you've already cleared. And due to the shallow design of the open world, even on an alt the enjoyment of flying to objectives is greatly diminished.
Basically the amount of work and time required to unlock flying isn't anywhere near the value of the "reward". This is why so many people are pushing for a zone-by-zone unlock, or earlier unlock, so that the value of flight is increased. Granted, that's purely subjective, and I think there are better ways to address the value of flight than by simply adjusting the timing of it(such as including flight in the fundamental design of the world), but having a more fair unlock is a good start.
I have to strongly disagree with this statement, as I believe it's a misrepresentation, and one of the fundamental misunderstandings of the ongoing debate.
This goes back to what I've been trying to articulate over the course of my last few posts: The value of flying through content that you've already cleared, and that has been repeated for nearly a year, is NOT the same as it would be if flying was obtainable earlier in the expansion. It is NOT the preferred way in which people would prefer to use flying in the open world. And it is NOT equivalent to the enjoyable experience that players who preferred the grounded content are getting.
I can't stress this point enough.
Being able to fly to NEW content that hasn't already been explored, or even being able to fly through content that you've only done once, has far more value than what Pathfinder leaves players after being completed. Having to constantly run back and forth over the open world to grind reputation via world quests ensures that by the time flying is acquired, there is virtually no value or exploration left in the content you can fly to. In many cases players have repeated pathfinder content so often that they're sick of it, and don't want to return even WITH flying.
Players who want flight generally do not get what they want out of the "compromise" of flying.
I question how waiting for an arbitrary amount of time, that has nothing to do with your own work or effort, can feel more rewarding. The player doesn't have any involvement in that process. And I think this is why you, and many others, are correct when you say it would be better if Pathfinder could be completed from day 1. This is because it ties the process 100% to player effort and work. Personally I would prefer a more comprehensive solution, but I also believe that your suggestions(along with many others) would increase the value of unlocking flight significantly.
I think if Blizzard addressed the fundamental issue of how shallow the open world is, both physically and creatively, Pathfinder wouldn't be as needed. Either design the world to include challenges and obstacles to flying players(along with an associated reworking of the flight mechanics to facilitate that design), or design the ground content to be enjoyable and engaging enough so that players don't mind not having flight. Simply taking away flight and using the same "kill-X" flat terrain isn't enough any more.
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The problem you just described is not with flight. You could do the exact same thing with a ground mount, or with a glider, or the whistle.
The problem is with open world content that's so stupidly over-simplified that all you have to do is run in and click or kill a couple things then run out. That's an issue of depth. If the open world objectives had more complexity or thinking involved, even current flight mechanics wouldn't have as much of an impact.
Let me rephrase that for emphasis: The problem isn't with flight. It's with quest and objectives that are so simple and shallow that a trained cat could complete it.
Pathfinder is great, I don't mind it and I don't understand why so people apparently do/or you think they do.
It gives you a chance to adventure, to explore, to see things as intended. Flying is stupid and honestly one of the most immersion breaking aspects of the game for me, I'm glad they keep it held it off until content is explored and seen
You're playing a game, not everything needs to be fast and instant gratification, jumping from point A to B to C in a couple of minutes when you're just sitting on your ass wasting time anyway.
I rather be down to world that gets more beautiful by each Expansion! Now granted I understand flying over shit like Outlands, because the landscape is honestly pretty boring and dull, but the Broken isles? Zandalar, Kul'tiras?!!! Hell no...but that's just me, I'm a scenic kind of person
There is an easy way to do it now... no flying in war mode.
I personally just don't get why they don't create content with flying in mind like Storm Peak and Icecrown anymore, but that's the other option.. world pvp won't be an excuse anymore and you just boost their damage so you are not advantaged by flying.
Very rarely does one come across someone as clueless and in left field as the OP is.
Wow. Just wow.
I'm sorry, did you say Timeless Isle was great? Because I'd have to strongly disagree.
I just find it ridiculous we need to do a whole achievements and reps to get flying, i don't enjoy being on the ground and it should be as it was before, paying with gold, if you want, sure make us get exalted with one rep of some kind and then some gold, but the whole pathfinders are ridiculous. People has always used hacks and discovered problems even on expansions without pathfinders, i don't give a damn, i want to be able to explore the world without being stuck on the ground, i like to fly and see the world bigger and people on the ground doing stuff while im farming herbs, makes the world seem bigger and more populated cause you can pass from places to places and 'oh look at it, there's someone killing those mobs, oh i just remembered now, i should do this too...' FLYING doesn't take the ability of not making us play more the game, if anything, makes us even want to explore more, because of how fast we want to get to a place, sometimes on the ground and always taking flight paths seems we take too much effort, calling for the whistle, talking with the flight master and send character to just the other side of the road when we could just fly there by ourselves but ground mount doesn't have enough speed.
It's absurd. I do pathfinders cause i want flying, everyone wants flying, it shouldn't be needed to be at almost middle of the expansion to get it... It's not for our benefit to stay on the ground, i don't find it enjoyable, and i find it slow, i take more time on a ground mount to go somewhere cause even on some roads going without any mob attacking there's times we get dismounted and need to stop to fight that mob that we dont even care about, with flying, this doesn't happen, so nope this is not even a benefit.
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Also with no flying makes us get out from a place as fast as we can and not exploring anything because we want to move to world quests, or doing some stuff, we don't really want to go anywhere because it takes too much time as it is already, for my experience this xpacs, WoD, Legion and BfA, not having flying was the worse thing for me and puts me off to even want to go somewhere.
If you took the time to read a few of the more detailed and articulated posts, you might.
I think I see the issue here.
You should REALLY stop and take the time to consider that there's enough room in the game for players to enjoy flying and the ground. Restricting flight for almost an entire year is not required to provide you with a grounded experience. Time gating it at all isn't required either.
In fact, it's entirely possible for content to be designed side by side for both flying and grounded exploration, artistic beauty, and challenge. The fact of the matter is that older expansions did this. Flying was unlocked at level cap, giving you grounded exploration while leveling. Then players got the entire open world to fly around, followed later by islands for level-capped ground content.
Both types of players had content made for them. I think we can expand on that idea and make better versions of that concept, and I think we REALLY need to stop making this a black and white issue where only one side gets what they want.
Last edited by SirCowdog; 2019-05-19 at 12:19 AM.
I hate flying and wish it was never introduced into the game. Just my two cents.
On the second note I find Pathfinder an ideal balance between ground and flying transition.
I second this.. who the hell ever said Timeless Isle was great?
I think I was done after 2 days with that zone, just to unlock the legendary cloak and that's it... except the very very boring farming of frogs at the end of the xpac.
Or maybe you're mistaking it with the Isle of Thunder.. because that was actually good content.
If you hate it, did you keep playing from TBC through MoP?
Also, what is it about flying that you hate? Is there something stopping you from just staying on the ground and playing the game the way you enjoy? Is it the design of maps that make you have to travel further? Is it PVP? What, specifically, is it that you hate?
Flight wasn't a problem in TBC because you had to be max level and it was a WAY different time. Flying eventually devolved into an excuse for players to mongo their way through content and it did in fact limit game design. I mean look at Legion with those Kirin Tor WQ that got 100% invalidated once flying came out. Add in the people now who are like "waahhhhh I can't just swoop right in on a quest mob and avoid the things guarding him that would be more realistic". Flying has been a problem since around Cataclysm.
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Couldn't fly there either so it still fits the bill. TI set the stage for some of the treasures in WoD and Legion and getting to some of the things was actually fun and would have been killed by flying.
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And this is an example of the lazy type of players this game has produced. "I want it this way because I want it this way" should not ever be a guiding force in game design.
Wasn't a big fan of Isle of Thunder either. I just don't get the whole "rare hunting" enthusiasm. You just run around to specific spawn points to kill an enemy that isn't actually rare at all. I don't know what would make the experience more enjoyable for me. I just know that the same experience has been repeated multiple times now. Idle of Thunder, Timeless Isle, Tanaan Jungle, Argus and now the Warfront zones. At least Argus and Warfront zones have world quests.
The playerbase wants it that way. Loads of people who do open world content don't want to be challenged at all, case in point the Kirin Tor WQs that were hated by some because anything more than killing X or filling Y bar confused players.
Besides that, flying itself is also a total band-aid. It's not an interesting design, you just noclip through all the things with almost no limitations. You can give me the most high-quality content in the universe, but if I can noclip to the reward I'll maybe do the content once then skip it afterwards, and WoW has literally always been a rewards-based game as an MMO. Anything to "make it more interesting" would just be an added hassle, such as cannons that dismount you or airborne enemies. We had an environment that kinda simulated a flying zone in design, it was Vash'jir, and while the place is pretty its gameplay was disliked by most, yours truly very much included. If flying required skill and had cool mechanics supplemented by the level design like the gliding in the Arkham games, the grappling hook in Just Cause 2 or the blinking in Dishonored then I'd be all for it being available day 1, but in the state its in where it renders level design completely meaningless? Na, I'm OK with a bit of a delay.
Pathfinder is fine in theory because not being to fly at first does make you explore the nooks and crannies and learn the routes through the levels. The implementation is the problem, it should be available in the .1 patch, not the .2 one, and tied more to questing and exploration achievements than reputation ones. But it's still better than brainless shit like Cata leveling. My word that was a disjointed mess, and flying invalidating the terrain instantly did not help.
This is predicated on the idea that existing grounded content is challenging, which it isn't. Therefore, if the existing content is already NOT challenging, where's the harm of allowing flight?
Now, having just said that, I don't think the solution is to just slap flying back into the game without any consideration. I've repeated this many times across many threads, but I think the solution is to create content that acknowledges, or even uses, flying from the beginning. And I don't mean just giving flight to people from the beginning of the expansion for gold. I mean designing the open world so that a flying player CAN'T just swoop in and ignore everything while clicking 3 buttons then leaving.
This is going to require Blizzard completely overhauling the fundamental game mechanics of how flying and their quest design and encounters work. It's not going to be easy, or quick. But the alternative is just more piles and piles of "Kill-X" quests with facade barriers between zones. If they DON'T start innovating with the open world, the game will continue to lose players as the design stagnates more and more.
Oof...a lot to unpack here.
I agree that current flight mechanics are not interesting. They're basically the same mechanics that were originally introduced back in TBC. That's one problem.
Next is what you mentioned about skipping to the reward. I think a lot of that has just as much to do with how simple the quest design is. There ARE ways to do this without just annoying players with canons or dismounts. It can be done with a mix of indoor/outdoor areas. It can be done by quests that have objectives that don't spawn until other conditions are met, such as a boss not spawning until several minions are killed first. It can be done via environmental hazards or terrain, or ranged mobs. It could USE flying with things like timers or races, where a player needs to be in certain places at certain times. There ARE ways to do it if Blizzard is willing to get creative; which they sadly haven't been, lately. And as I already mentioned: Even if Blizzard doesn't use flying, quest design still needs to improve and provide challenge, even on the ground!
Vashj'ir: I think the lion's share of why Vashj'ir was disliked had to do with the oppressive atmosphere and environment. Being under water has an entirely different feeling than being free in the open air. Everything from the types of enemies you're facing, to the foliage, to the sounds. It is not fair to point to Vashj'ir and say "This is why flying environments don't work", because Vashj'ir was not really a flying zone. Granted....some of the underlying mechanics were the same. But why is Vashj'ir the only one singled out for this comparison when zones like Icecrown or Deepholme were not? I'd suggest it had more to do with the underwater theme than anything else.
I agree to an extent. But instead of just using the forumula of "Do the ground first, then return and do the same ground stuff later....just with flying", I'd like to see flying unlock additional areas and content once it's obtained. Have it actually be part of progression that takes your character FORWARD instead of just being a shortcut to go BACKWARDS to areas you're probably already sick of. If that was what was waiting for players after completing Pathfinder, I think it would be much more acceptable.
Last edited by SirCowdog; 2019-05-19 at 03:16 AM.
wod was actuallty deisnged knowing players could use things to get high into the sky, nothing in wod was a "facade" like silvermoon
HOWEVER as flying was not planned, there was invisible walls EVERYWHERE and the skybox was a MESS, flying skyboxes are usually flat boxes, or domes. wods was just a mess of boxes and domes and walls etc. cause why waste the time flattening and clearing these walls if... they are not going to effect the player, this was very obvious on the ptr for 6.2 when you could get flying, or with the items we had in wod that allowed flying.
I wasn't aware that Blizzard was trying to change the history of Pathfinder. Could someone please link me where Blizzard said that it was for PvP and what not? I can't find it.
Last edited by Selah; 2019-05-19 at 05:04 AM.
I think the main issue is that the open world just isn't this game's draw and never will be. Blizzard will never be able to match even a fairly mediocre open world such as RAGE 2's, let alone the highly praised behemoths of the genre such as Skyrim's or Witcher 3's. Their ancient engine and having to abide the tenets of an MMO (which equals repeatable content by definition) limits their design space too much, I'd wager, and this game needs to run too many systems at once (raids, M+, arenas, BGs being the big 4) to focus too much development effort on a part of the game the vast majority of players take for granted. Whereas dungeons, raids and large-scale BGs are a forte that WoW has over almost every single game out there.
And even in these much better open worlds, people skip things. It's no wonder every single open world game since the last 10+ years have had some variant of fast travel. I doubt Blizzard would ever be able to design much that can't be skipped without people complaining about how much of a hassle it would be.
Vash'jir isn't a perfect example by any means but it's the closest we got to a zone with actual 3d gameplay, every other zone that required flying just had the usual 2d gameplay platforms separated by pits. And IMO the atmosphere was the best thing about the zone. The mob density, 3d combat especially as melee, annoyance to find your objectives, basically everything about the gameplay didn't click with me even if the visuals are some of the most stunning in this game to date.
I guess Pathfinder could unlock areas, but then the usual muh timegates complaints will occur so eh.