Can we all now agree that Vanilla wasn't harder?

[Celista]

I don't know about Vanilla but we definitely cc'd in BC dungeons/raids.

[apples]

That would be correct, what you are missing is that those gymnasts are pushing themselves into things they don't know how to do - pushing the envelope.

Good to see you are seeing how things work albeit slowly.

something looks easy so it must be easy

yikes

[Keyblader]

Yep, was just waiting for it to be released, and people to play it and realize that the game wasn't harder, it was slower, and it was made for extremely low end pcs, with dial up connections. I loved seeing people make threads like "How is Rag and Onyxia already dead, it doesn't make sense." The game was so cookie cutter basic easy, raids have become more complex, and one can argue that Blizzard frontloads bosses with mechanics, because we have so many addons at our disposal to essentially do bosses for us. But still, classic was not hard, it was just slow, and clunky to a certain extent.

[Big Thanks]

I think the fundamental issue here is how people view the term "hard". For me, I am looking at it as something that presents a challenge, something that tests my skill. That's a boiled down view of what "hard" means to me. So no, to me, it's still not hard because the gameplay is not presenting you with a challenge, it's presenting you with a time consuming task.

For you, perhaps something taking a long time makes it hard, and you know, I think I'll it's ok to agree that we have different views on what makes something hard.

In my opinion there is a threshold, a line that when crossed, "time commitment" becomes "hard".
That line is when something becomes impossible physically and mentally for one person to acomplish.

If the legends are true and rank 14 requires 12 hours a day of game time (ignoring the fact that also takes skill) for month/s...that is hard.

[Gjin]

lol Classic raids are about as difficult as LFR in Modern.

Says lfr player who thinks lfr is hard lol

[Frozenbro]

Says lfr player who thinks lfr is hard lol

https://clips.twitch.tv/TenuousAltru...chaNinjaGrumpy top end raiders think so too.

[TheRevenantHero]

Says lfr player who thinks lfr is hard lol

Except, I only do LFR if I'm super bored. Otherwise, I'm a proper raider. I haven't mythic raided this expansion but I have in every expansion prior to BfA lol. Classic raids are on par with LFR in difficulty, bro.

[Gjin]

Except, I only do LFR if I'm super bored. Otherwise, I'm a proper raider. I haven't mythic raided this expansion but I have in every expansion prior to BfA lol. Classic raids are on par with LFR in difficulty, bro.

You actually realise heroic and such are cleared on release days, and you use months to do em lol. Yes you are lfr raider.

[ghostnet]

Yep, was just waiting for it to be released, and people to play it and realize that the game wasn't harder, it was slower, and it was made for extremely low end pcs, with dial up connections. I loved seeing people make threads like "How is Rag and Onyxia already dead, it doesn't make sense." The game was so cookie cutter basic easy, raids have become more complex, and one can argue that Blizzard frontloads bosses with mechanics, because we have so many addons at our disposal to essentially do bosses for us. But still, classic was not hard, it was just slow, and clunky to a certain extent.

There is a game design reason for it being slow which you and many people fail to realize serves very importantly to the immersion of the game. If i'm killing 100 boars slowly in classic, im inclined to group up with people who are also from my own server and not some random shard, making friends in the process and also giving weight to my achievement when i finally complete the quest. It feels like an achievement.

On the contrary, in retail I can solo the entire place within 10 mins and rush out of there, 0 gameplay 0 immersion 0 socialization.

[Gjin]

https://clips.twitch.tv/TenuousAltru...chaNinjaGrumpy top end raiders think so too.

Cant even argue someone like you. Troll.

[Frozenbro]

Cant even argue someone like you. Troll.

??? that is a legit video m8, unless you have no idea who naowh is.

[Ungeir]

Classic appeals strongly to players who equate difficulty with time requirements. Difficulty is about skill floors and ceilings, and about the relevancy of gameplay execution and planning. Everything taking longer to accomplish is not skill. Classic punishing players for completely ignoring execution is not difficulty.

BfA has absolutely no difficulty outside high-end raiding.
Classic has absolutely no difficulty anywhere, but the endgame is incredibly easy.

BfA allows you to faceroll non high-end content in short order.
Classic has a lenient skill floor and time requirements for a lot of content are harsher.

Neither game is hard or skill-based for the majority of people. Terrible players will find classic harder than BfA. Skilled players will find some challenge in BfA endgame, but no challenge in Classic.

It's perfectly fine to be entertained by either game, and there are many good reasons to enjoy both. There are reasons of aesthetics, nostalgia and world design that
are reasonable explanation for having fun with one or both. Difficulty is not one of them. For either game. If you are not a high-end raider in BfA, you'll not be challenged unless you're mentally or physically handicapped. Same goes for basically every single part of classic. There are some challenges relating to organization and running a social structure to support end-game raiding. For those who enjoy that, that's also a fair reason to stick around. You can also find a challenge in minimizing time needed to level and do content in classic. But that's no different than speed-running any easy game.

[TheRevenantHero]

You actually realise heroic and such are cleared on release days, and you use months to do em lol. Yes you are lfr raider.

....So because heroic isn't as intense as mythic, I'm somehow an LFR raider? Do you even think before you type?

- - - Updated - - -

??? that is a legit video m8, unless you have no idea who naowh is.

Don't even bother. Ironic he called you a troll considering how massive of a troll he is.

[Amo1]

14 pages of people arguing semantics, what a thread

[melodramocracy]

OMEGALUL, yeah a +18 is the same as doing ubrs on 60 and mythic Azshara is the same as doing naxx, oh the memes.

Not even a single iota of reading comprehension there, good job.

[nodlimax]

Is the OP seriously suggesting that leveling in Vanilla where you usually die (or at least have to try to disengage) when you pull more than 1-2 enemies is not more "difficult" then retail where you barely have a scratch when you pull even whole groups of enemies?

Just asking....

The basic combat obviously is not more difficult. But you have to take much more things into consideration when going into combat.

[Bogdand131980]

I still can't see the compare.
Classic is from design made to be at slower pace. Is progress in any way stopped by this? Not really.
Do you need specific gear or gear farm to progress from one dungeon to another ? Not really, maybe a bit as tank. Does it matter that you enter deadmines with no green items on ? Not at all.
In one word progress is liniar, slow and not really demanding, from level 10 to raid completion, without real item farms.

Can you do same in retail ? Untill M+, heroic raids, yes, you can do it easier and faster. From there on not anymore at all.

Coming to that 1% content comparision. Top content is that everyone dreams for. If you can't access that 1% more is cause you are not good enough, just how naxx 40 was in vanilla. So you don't compare the real content, you compare the content you are capable to complete.

[Ermelloth]

I laugh every time when Vanilla dungeons are compared to M+.

M10+ is played by a relatively little elitist minority of entire BFA playerbase. Yes it is hard, but it's tuned to be so with all kind of special modifications, to reward raid-quality loot.

Now, don't forget there are Normal and HC and M0 difficulties as well, which come BEFORE M+. And all these have nearly zero difficulty (HC is a cakewalk anyone can do, Normal is so easy that it is funny).

Now, Vanilla dungeons don't have even HC mode, and they don't drop raid-quality loot. At the same time they are harder than HCs in BFA and roughly as hard as M0, I'd say.

[NineSpine]

Classic appeals strongly to players who equate difficulty with time requirements. Difficulty is about skill floors and ceilings, and about the relevancy of gameplay execution and planning. Everything taking longer to accomplish is not skill. Classic punishing players for completely ignoring execution is not difficulty.

BfA has absolutely no difficulty outside high-end raiding.
Classic has absolutely no difficulty anywhere, but the endgame is incredibly easy.

BfA allows you to faceroll non high-end content in short order.
Classic has a lenient skill floor and time requirements for a lot of content are harsher.

Neither game is hard or skill-based for the majority of people. Terrible players will find classic harder than BfA. Skilled players will find some challenge in BfA endgame, but no challenge in Classic.

It's perfectly fine to be entertained by either game, and there are many good reasons to enjoy both. There are reasons of aesthetics, nostalgia and world design that
are reasonable explanation for having fun with one or both. Difficulty is not one of them. For either game. If you are not a high-end raider in BfA, you'll not be challenged unless you're mentally or physically handicapped. Same goes for basically every single part of classic. There are some challenges relating to organization and running a social structure to support end-game raiding. For those who enjoy that, that's also a fair reason to stick around. You can also find a challenge in minimizing time needed to level and do content in classic. But that's no different than speed-running any easy game.

Difficult is defined by Oxford as follows:
"Needing much effort or skill to accomplish, deal with, or understand."
https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/difficult

Effort
OR
Skill

Something which requires significant amounts of effort, such as taking a lot of time and persistence, is difficult.

You guys are straight up changing the definitions of words in order to facilitate your weird obsession with intentionally misunderstanding Classic fans.

[Khuzog]

Difficult is defined by Oxford as follows:
"Needing much effort or skill to accomplish, deal with, or understand."
https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/difficult

Effort
OR
Skill

Something which requires significant amounts of effort, such as taking a lot of time and persistence, is difficult.

You guys are straight up changing the definitions of words in order to facilitate your weird obsession with intentionally misunderstanding Classic fans.

https://clips.twitch.tv/ShakingFrozenLampTBTacoLeft

Much effort, much skill. Yeah folks who raise an eyebrow at "Classic is Hard" are the ones reinventing words here.