Mythic is too tight, guilds are dying

[Relapses]

I'd rather them design around the 7% than the .001%.

I, too, look forward to Method's 25 minute WF stream.

[Osmeric]

There's a very real issue with this. If Blizzard "undertunes" Mythic encounters so that they're essentially what they "should have been," it has the Emerald Nightmare problem where there's 200 kills in the first week and everybody looks back and says, "well that wasn't a real tier."

Sounds great. Why exactly would that be bad?

[THEORACLE64]

Probably shouldn’t care that much about ratings then.

[leorana]

Defile didn't care about your % and was still a bitch even at full buff - especially on Heroic.

This is why (for me) H LK was the peak of raid encounter design.

LK had to be perfectly orchastrated and executed. You had a personal responsibility to not die from stupid shit (lets say traps and orbs), but ALSO a collective responsibilty not to wipe the raid (defile, necrotic plague).

DPS, HPS numers mattered very little. Sure, high dps on valks helped...but a slow, or a grip was the way to go. When numbers and class utilities matters less - so does class (im)balance and gearing.

Considering the REAL grind is getting an army of geared to their theeth alts, tailored for each specific encounter, puttinh the emphasis on proper execution will not only lessen the grind, but would finally bring the "bring the PLAYER not the class" to become reality and not an empty meme.

[Relapses]

Sounds great. Why exactly would that be bad?

There's a certain allure to incredibly tightly tuned encounters. I get it -- that challenge is really only reserved for an incredibly small number of players who raid at a level that's incomprehensible for 99.9% of the playerbase. The game is better with that allure than it is without it. Yeah, this difficulty curve has, can and will kill guilds. But Mythic raiding is already a pretty exclusive activity so it becoming more exclusive isn't exactly a bad thing (imo).

And to that end, I've seen arguments that Mythic raiding is going to kill itself off since Mythic 20M was introduced 3 expansions ago and it doesn't seem to be any closer to dying now than it was at any other point in history.

[Nefarious Tea]

There is always someone spamming "lol bosses are already easy" in these treads...

And they’ve either never raided above LFR, or they are the deadest of dead weight in n their guild.

Yeah, bosses are REAL easy when you’re tanking the floor.

[leorana]

I'd rather them design around the 7% than the .001%. Emerald Nightmare wasn't tuned properly at all, it was all way too easy(with the exception of Cenarius being pretty tight for a while), especially Xavius feeling easier than Heroic.

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Except in most Mythic situations, one or two deaths means its going to be a wipe, especially on progression. Everyone has to bring their A game and if they aren't and leadership isn't going to fix the problem(s) then they don't deserve to kill bosses.

Agreed.

Problem is that current state mythic raiding isn't centered around "the challange" (7% of guilds gets the kill either at start or end), it's centered about "the race" (and tuned for 0.1% to get a better photofinish or resolution of who's the best guild).

The above situation delays the majority of mythic guilds from actually starting their current tier progression until the WF race is done with.

[bmjclark]

Im not even sure if the only issue is that mythic is too hard. My old guild would have done well as a 10 man (and did in MoP) but we couldn't recruit 10 other solid people. I still really wish they'd put 10 man mythic in. Also, i feel like heroic is just way too much of a joke compared to mythic. My friend group easily clears heroic and then is instantly out of things to progress on.

[leorana]

There's a certain allure to incredibly tightly tuned encounters. I get it -- that challenge is really only reserved for an incredibly small number of players who raid at a level that's incomprehensible for 99.9% of the playerbase. The game is better with that allure than it is without it. Yeah, this difficulty curve has, can and will kill guilds. But Mythic raiding is already a pretty exclusive activity so it becoming more exclusive isn't exactly a bad thing (imo).

And to that end, I've seen arguments that Mythic raiding is going to kill itself off since Mythic 20M was introduced 3 expansions ago and it doesn't seem to be any closer to dying now than it was at any other point in history.

I have a possible solution for that...

Implement M+ raiding. Adjust M0 difficulty to the top 10% (and give those guys a CE achieve), and make the 'RACE' about which guilds get it done at the highest key at the end of a 30 days period. This would make the race not about "world first" but about "world's BEST".

if difficulty is your alluring - you've been served. But what most people are saying here is that current state mythic raiding causes players to quit the game and is killing off guilds. That's far from being good to the game...

[Augusta138]

Biggest issue is not the difficulty it is the time required to raid at a level i wanna raid at.

Been raiding since classic and always on a fairly high level (all the way up to 4-5 days in some xpacs), most of my time in 2 / 3 days a week clearing mythic or heroic before the new tier.

I could cope with those days / time required although i am getting older and work / social commitments / other hobbies are simply taking time away from the game.

I have been raiding this expansion for 2-3 days aswell till early BoD release however i just cant be arsed anymore.
Aside from the 2-3 raid days you need to complete the following activities aswell;
- mythic + cache 1-2 runs mostly
- HoA farm to keep it up to date
- Essences
- other "various" tasks like herbing or gold farm or whatever else you need for consumbles etc.
- preparation for a new boss i.e. tactics / reading up etc.

The 3 day raiding schedule easily reaches 4 days and that is eating away from the other hobbies or social tasks required.

Mythic difficulty was fine in my eyes and felt rewarding. Even when raiding 2 days we still managed to reach Zul before midway december. And we cancelled a lot of raids due to missing people.

Down the line, mythic should stay as is in my eyes. Id just wish it was more accesible to just raid 2 days and clear to a certain extent.

And than maybe play 4 days that same week if i can find the time, and if i can only raid log one reset that would be fine aswell.

M+ filled the position of raiding and i run M+ with a core group of old guildies nowadays instead.

[Osmeric]

There's a certain allure to incredibly tightly tuned encounters.

There is? That sounds really nebulous. And such "allure" can easily turn negative, if players, the vast majority of players, come to realize that for them it's just a mirage.

What matters ultimately is not "allure", but whether M raiding is good for the performance of the game as an entertainment product and a business activity. That is, does it contribute to retaining players in bulk. And I don't see how that could be. Even among those doing M raiding, the lower end people will be more numerous than the high end. So tuning this content for the high end makes more people unhappy -- those 1/8 or 3/8 M guilds (or 0/8 M, now, if they were marginal in earlier tiers in M). If the goal is to make more customers happy then tightly tuned M raids don't do that.

It's actually even worse than that. The harder content becomes, the more the very top players are compelled to ditch their friends, if those friends don't quite measure up. So it's not just M raiders that become happy, it's all the lesser players whose friends abandon them. And M raiding casts a pall on the ego value of all the lower content, and tells all those lower players they shouldn't be happy because they're bad.

I think WoW's struggles since Wrath have not been because the game was made too easy, or too casual. It's because it has retained difficult high end content. That has poisoned everything below it.

And to that end, I've seen arguments that Mythic raiding is going to kill itself off since Mythic 20M was introduced 3 expansions ago and it doesn't seem to be any closer to dying now than it was at any other point in history.

Mythic has not killed itself, unfortunately. Its toxicity has spread out, slowly killing the entire game.

[Relapses]

There is? That sounds really nebulous. And such "allure" can easily turn negative, if players, the vast majority of players, come to realize that for them it's just a mirage.

What matters ultimately is not "allure", but whether M raiding is good for the performance of the game as an entertainment product and a business activity. That is, does it contribute to retaining players in bulk. And I don't see how that could be. Even among those doing M raiding, the lower end people will be more numerous than the high end. So tuning this content for the high end makes more people unhappy -- those 1/8 or 3/8 M guilds (or 0/8 M, now, if they were marginal in earlier tiers in M). If the goal is to make more customers happy then tightly tuned M raids don't do that.

It's actually even worse than that. The harder content becomes, the more the very top players are compelled to ditch their friends, if those friends don't quite measure up. So it's not just M raiders that become happy, it's all the lesser players whose friends abandon them. And M raiding casts a pall on the ego value of all the lower content, and tells all those lower players they shouldn't be happy because they're bad.

I think WoW's struggles since Wrath have not been because the game was made too easy, or too casual. It's because it has retained difficult high end content. That has poisoned everything below it.

It stands to mention that I was referring mainly to the difficulty of last boss of the instance, not the entire instance. I'm actually perfectly fine with every boss up to the penultimate and finishing boss being significantly less difficult. In fact, EP is a pretty good example of a middle ground difficulty curve (moreso than BoD imo) with 4/8M being relatively easy to PuG for a number of groups.

Mythic has not killed itself, unfortunately. Its toxicity has spread out, slowly killing the entire game.

I also don't see this. r.io is no different than Gear Score was back in the day. And I can remember even as far back as WotLK that I'd occasionally look up logs for players before inviting them to PuGs so this mentality isn't exactly new.

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I have a possible solution for that...

Implement M+ raiding. Adjust M0 difficulty to the top 10% (and give those guys a CE achieve), and make the 'RACE' about which guilds get it done at the highest key at the end of a 30 days period. This would make the race not about "world first" but about "world's BEST".

if difficulty is your alluring - you've been served. But what most people are saying here is that current state mythic raiding causes players to quit the game and is killing off guilds. That's far from being good to the game...

Yeah, good luck convincing 20+ people to keep running the same instance for higher "keys." Part of the reason M+ works is because there is a wide variety of instances to chop up the monotony. (And even then, anybody's who's pushed keys can attest that it's not 100% successful at that either.)

[leorana]

It stands to mention that I was referring mainly to the difficulty of last boss of the instance, not the entire instance. I'm actually perfectly fine with every boss up to the penultimate and finishing boss being significantly less difficult. In fact, EP is a pretty good example of a middle ground difficulty curve (moreso than BoD imo) with 4/8M being relatively easy to PuG for a number of groups.



I also don't see this. r.io is no different than Gear Score was back in the day. And I can remember even as far back as WotLK that I'd occasionally look up logs for players before inviting them to PuGs so this mentality isn't exactly new.

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Yeah, good luck convincing 20+ people to keep running the same instance for higher "keys." Part of the reason M+ works is because there is a wide variety of instances to chop up the monotony. (And even then, anybody's who's pushed keys can attest that it's not 100% successful at that either.)

No need to re-run it over and over again just to farm keys. Make it like a toggable difficulty level menu which can be adjusted (even mid instance).

Also, is difficulty the problem, or is it monotony now? Doesn't split runs or alts runs contribute to that same said monotony?

[Relapses]

No need to re-run it over and over again just to farm keys. Make it like a toggable difficulty level menu which can be adjusted (even mid instance).

Also, is difficulty the problem, or is it monotony now? Doesn't split runs or alts runs contribute to that same said monotony?

For some it is, for some it isn't. I've always enjoyed keeping "raid ready" alts. I get not everybody does but it's something you sign up for when you want to push WF CE.

Another issue with "keys:" Unlike M+ where bosses can be scaled in a linear fashion, most Mythic raid encounters are not just "scaled up" versions of the easier versions of the instance. At some point, just increasing HP pools simply isn't a very interesting way to pump up difficulty... especially when raid encounters are typically far, far more complex than boss encounters in dungeons.

[leorana]

For some it is, for some it isn't. I've always enjoyed keeping "raid ready" alts. I get not everybody does but it's something you sign up for when you want to push WF CE.

Another issue with "keys:" Unlike M+ where bosses can be scaled in a linear fashion, most Mythic raid encounters are not just "scaled up" versions of the easier versions of the instance. At some point, just increasing HP pools simply isn't a very interesting way to pump up difficulty... especially when raid encounters are typically far, far more complex than boss encounters in dungeons.

There are 2 issues with what you said.

First, CE and WF raiders community are not the same. Most guild complaining here are top 200-300, not top 25 or above guild. They're not complaing on WF race, they're complaing they can't get the kill in a given patch, or even disbanding, due to difficulty tuned for with the WF race in mind.

Second, M+ isn't just aboy increased dmg and HP pools. What about affixes at given difficulty thresholds? Thing is...you realy shuldn't.

M0 raiding shuld be the same (mechanically) as M20. The issue is raid tunning, as can be expressed by nerfing it by blizz as the WF race progress or ends. That being said, M0 shold have additional mechanics compared to heroic version of the raid (as it is now).

[Relapses]

There are 2 issues with what you said.

First, CE and WF raiders community are not the same. Most guild complaining here are top 200-300, not top 25 or above guild. They're not complaing on WF race, they're complaing they can't get the kill in a given patch, or even disbanding, due to difficulty tuned for with the WF race in mind.

Second, M+ isn't just aboy increased dmg and HP pools. What about affixes at given difficulty thresholds? Thing is...you realy shuldn't.

M0 raiding shuld be the same (mechanically) as M20. The issue is raid tunning, as can be expressed by nerfing it by blizz as the WF race progress or ends. That being said, M0 shold have additional mechanics compared to heroic version of the raid (as it is now).

Affixes only really serve to slow you down. Seeing as raiding has never really been about how fast you clear the instance unless you want to introduce speed runs to raiding I don't really see how it would work. It's just a very mediocre idea, imo.

[leorana]

Affixes only really serve to slow you down. Seeing as raiding has never really been about how fast you clear the instance unless you want to introduce speed runs to raiding I don't really see how it would work. It's just a very mediocre idea, imo.

Ignore time.

Keep difficulty tuning in mind and that's it. People are saying the raids are overtuned for top 500 guild because it's tightly tuned for top 25 ones.

Tune M0 DIFFICULTY-wise to top 500, and let top 25 select their difficylulty bar (like a bar jumper in the olympics who choose at which height to start).

I see no differance between nerfing a boss HP or DMG after 3 monthes, and just tune it to the exact same numbers (as a starting point) on day 1 and give top guild the possibilty to raise the diffuculty bar (buff boss) on their own.

You know what..you can even get a WF M(x) difficulty so in case 2 guild are tied on same difficulty at the end of the 30 days - whoever got there first win (or in less pulls, like that olimpic bar jumper).

[Relapses]

Ignore time.

Keep difficulty tuning in mind and that's it. People are saying the raids are overtuned for top 500 guild because it's tightly tuned for top 25 ones.

Tune M0 DIFFICULTY-wise to top 500, and let top 25 select their difficylulty bar (like a bar jumper in the olympics who choose at which height to start).

I see no differance between nerfing a boss HP or DMG after 3 monthes, and just tune it to the exact same numbers (as a starting point) on day 1 and give top guild the possibilty to raise the diffuculty bar (buff boss) on their own.

You know what..you can even get a WF M(x) difficulty so in case 2 guild are tied on same difficulty at the end of the 30 days - whoever got there first win (or in less pulls, like that olimpic bar jumper).

Ignore me if you'd like, I'm trying to approach this with as much civility as I can.

But I'm sorry, there's no way Blizzard would ever introduce a system this complex to the game. You're creating hundreds of different problems to solve an issue that isn't really an issue.

[VooDsXo]

We don't want to be gifted an Azshara kill, we just don't want to feel like we're grinding to dust on a wall. Throw us a bone Blizz, will ya? I really hope that Ny'alotha's corruption re-introduces a rolling power gain to help with progress blockers, because we're burning out over here.

This is the natural order of things, if it lives then it shall die. This was how the game was built and what breeds competition, the remnants of the guilds rebuild and try harder.

[leorana]

Ignore me if you'd like, I'm trying to approach this with as much civility as I can.

But I'm sorry, there's no way Blizzard would ever introduce a system this complex to the game. You're creating hundreds of different problems to solve an issue that isn't really an issue.

If it wasn't an issue - OP wouldn't make this thread and you wouldn't see many mythic raiders in this thread agreeing wifh him.

I'm fine with you disagreeing with me, but saying it's a non-issue is solely your OPINION, and a minority one as it seems.

Blizz allready have this kind of system in place in the dungeons scenary, the only diff between m10 and above is number tuning, which is what most people are complaining about.

Not trying to convince YOU, so not sure whats your take on the matter, or your pseudo-threat about acting civillized (isn't that a given in a forum conversation?). Don't like my opinions? You realy don't have to either read or response.

My idea was aimed at people CLAIMING they want high difficulty, while still making appropriate difficulty tuning from the start - that the majority of the mythic raiding community can benefit from. Is it perfect? Probably not, but as the mythic raiding community dwindles - brainstorming is the least we can do.