Why are you quoting me when I’m asking for people on this forum who defended terrorists?
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He said people were defending terrorists here. So how can they know this with no post? Defenses usually require an over defense of something.
House passes measure to limit Trump's ability to go to war with Iran.
Kind of.
While hopefully things have finished progressing -- we won't know for a while, Iran might say something mean about Trump in gym class and get Trump to blow up some mosques -- this could easily stand for a "who voted for the war" roll call if things go poorly. "Mr. Republican, you voted no to restrict Trump's ability," a challenger might say, "and then he went to war with Iran. That means you are okay with this."In a largely party-line vote of 224-194, the House passed a war powers resolution that would direct the president to end military hostilities with Iran unless Congress specifically authorizes it or the United States faces an “imminent armed attack.”
The measure would not need Trump’s signature because it’s what’s known as a “concurrent resolution.” But that has also left Democrats open to criticism that the resolution is just a messaging bill since concurrent resolutions are typically nonbinding, though their use to force the end of military hostilities under the War Powers Act is untested in court.
https://www.pnj.com/story/news/2020/...on/4425266002/
Color me shocked Matt Gaetz voted for it, but I imagine the White House told Republicans in Congress to vote however they wanted since the resolution is less useful than a piece of toilet paper.
Russia, and the US, have agents and proxies working everywhere in the world.
There's like a gazillion reasons why Russia would do this. Still, I don't think it's the likely explanation. Iranian accident is the most likely one. But dismissing the possiblity of Russians shooting it down is extremely naive.
EDIT: In fact, the video of the rocket hitting the plane is very questionable. Why is the guy out there filming the sky in the right direction at the right time and very close to the plane? One could say it indicates he had a prior knowledge of such a rocket being fired...
Really....? You need to think outside the box a bit.
I'll just list a few possible reasons what Russia could have to gain from this:
1. Causing the attack to make US retaliate and start a war against Iran.
2. Iranian alliance to Russia is of secondary value compared to the importance of hurting the US.
3. War is business. Selling more weapons to Iran.
4. Weaker Iran - more obedient puppet, more Russian influence in the region.
5. The plane was Ukrainian. Knowing the actual passenger manifests is a bit out of their reach considering the short notice and window of opportunity, but they surely would know the plane is Ukrainian.
And of course the actual shooters wouldn't be Sergei and Igor with their BUK shooting down the plane in the middle of Tehran, but their Iranian proxies/mercenaries/whatever - brown men with beards and on Putin's payroll.
No, dismissing the idea of the Russians shooting it down is what a normal and sane person would do. Yes, Russia has agents everywhere. Those Agents are not armed with mid-sized surface to air missiles. Shooting down a civilian airliner over Iranian territory is insane, Russia is trying to build a relationship with Iran, and humiliating them on the world stage is not a great way of doing it, nor is killing a planeload of their citizens. If Iran found out Russia did this they would go nuts, and Russia's chances of ever getting a foothold in the region would disappear. Russia would have an enormous amount to lose from this, and if they were clumsy enough that random forum posters on the internet could guess it, so could Iranian intelligence.
Russia has no reason to randomly murder a planeload of Iranian citizens. Neither does the US. Neither does Iran. This was not an intentional act, this is an accident involving a weapon and an airliner that was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Yes, Iran should have handled their civilian air traffic better. Yes, Iran should have handled their Air Defense systems better. No, Iran did not plan this. Hindsight is 20/20, and it is always easy to point out failures after something terrible has happened. The truth of the matter is that humans are deeply fallible creatures and they make mistakes, and some mistakes have big consequences. This is a known fact, and we don't have to rely on crazy theories of Russian false flag operations.
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Ok, in order..
1) WTF would the US Retaliate against Iran killing Iranians by accident?
2) How does this hurt the US exactly?
3) How does this want Iran to buy MORE Russian missiles, when these ones just destroyed the wrong target? Seems like they would want to buy radar that can tell the difference between a B-1B and a 737.
4) Ok, Iran is not a puppet, this doesn't make them weaker, and it certainly doesn't make them more obedient.
5) Come on, Russia doesn't go around killing anything Ukrainian.
All of this also doesn't cover the extreme risk to Russia if their little plot is uncovered. If someone found out it was Russia, then literally everyone is going to be PISSED. Canada, Sweden, and the Ukraine are going to be very mad you killed their citizens. Iran is going to be furious you killed their citizens AND framed them, and the US is going to be pissed because... well the US isn't going to miss a chance to get pissed at Russia for murdering people.
No US citizens on the jet. That's not particularly difficult information to get, and Russia would have known the passenger list if they were interested.
So, nope.
See above, this doesn't hurt the US. Also, Iran has considerable strategic importance to Russia, including controlling the Straight of Hormuz.
Again, see above. What war?
The opposite of their goals. They don't want Russian troops in the region, they already learned their lesson from Afghanistan. They're better served with a stronger Iran, who will remain considerably weaker than Russia, exerting influence in the region.
As stated above, not a reach at all. But what do they get out of downing a Ukrainian jet?
If this was the case, I imagine Iran would be hot to sling the blame on Russia rather than take the international pressure at the moment. It would make them even more sympathetic.
Because Russians didn't know the plane was full of Iranians.
Spice up the conflict to evolve into a war. A war with Iran would be catastrophic for the US.2) How does this hurt the US exactly?
What do you mean wrong target? Iran (the government) would of course know they didn't shoot it down, but some other Iranians did. There are different underground factions in Iran, too. Supported and supplied by foreign states. Just like everywhere, business as usual in geopolitics.3) How does this want Iran to buy MORE Russian missiles, when these ones just destroyed the wrong target? Seems like they would want to buy radar that can tell the difference between a B-1B and a 737.
Yes they are a "puppet". They are very reliant on Russian goods, resources and weaponry.4) Ok, Iran is not a puppet, this doesn't make them weaker, and it certainly doesn't make them more obedient.
Excuse me? You know they have been fighting a proxy war in Ukraine for 5 years?5) Come on, Russia doesn't go around killing anything Ukrainian.
Extreme risk? Russia was uncovered to having been shooting down MH17. Pretty much nothing happened to Russia. US and the whole Europe basically just waved their fingers and said "naughty Russia" and applied mild economic sanctions.All of this also doesn't cover the extreme risk to Russia if their little plot is uncovered. If someone found out it was Russia, then literally everyone is going to be PISSED. Canada, Sweden, and the Ukraine are going to be very mad you killed their citizens. Iran is going to be furious you killed their citizens AND framed them, and the US is going to be pissed because... well the US isn't going to miss a chance to get pissed at Russia for murdering people.
Ok... yeah, I am done with this crazy conspiracy.
So your theory is that Russia went through all the trouble to shoot down one specific airliner in Iran, but couldn't be bothered to figure out who was on it. The Russians couldn't figure out that a plane leaving from IRAN was full of IRANIANs. That is some next level intelligence failure right there.
An easy way to spot a conspiracy theory is to ask if it involves some organization simultaneously acting extremely competent and incompetent at the same time.
You sure they would just get it instantly? The window of opportunity opened pretty fast when Iran decided to let civilian planes fly there. I would like to know what other, if any, planes were departing from the Tehran airport before and after the Ukrainian one.
Nah, obviously not many Russian troops would ever go there. Proxy wars are great, they are often very profitable.The opposite of their goals. They don't want Russian troops in the region, they already learned their lesson from Afghanistan. They're better served with a stronger Iran, who will remain considerably weaker than Russia, exerting influence in the region.
Hurt Ukraine, USA and Iran. Win-win-win.As stated above, not a reach at all. But what do they get out of downing a Ukrainian jet?
Only if they knew it was Russia and could prove it. What would be even worse than taking the blame for it themselves? - The fact that some other Iranians did it. That would make them look weak and divided.If this was the case, I imagine Iran would be hot to sling the blame on Russia rather than take the international pressure at the moment. It would make them even more sympathetic.
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It's not my theory or something I believe happened as I already mentioned two or three times. I was just pointing out very plausible reasons why Russia could have shot down the plane. You know you can think and discuss other options as well as your own view on things.
It's not super difficult to find out who's on a plane. And as far as I know, planes were still taking off from the Tehran airport, this wasn't some "one-off" or anything.
Do you have evidence of significant Russian troop presence in Iran in an unofficial capacity like this?
You have yet to establish how this "hurts the US". This hurts Iran, and Iran only.
Again, what does Russia gain from this? How do they benefit from international, and domestic, anger at the Iranian government?
You're kinda going a bit space cadet with this dude. These are some Mr. Fantastic style reaches.
There are a lot of US proxy states on Russian border already, Iran wouldn't make a difference in that regard.
The US will eventually leave Iraq, and Iran, and then a weak state is up for grabs.
Iran wouldn't get roflstomped, it would be a long and costly war for the US.
Getting passenger manifests the legal way would blow Russia's cover. They would need to hack the airline's database to get the passenger lists in that timeframe.
Where is the proof of Iranian Air Defence Force shooting it down? For now, it wasn't reportedly shot down by anything.
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It is difficult if you need to know in ~minutes.
Also if other planes were coming and going, this is even more suspicious. Why was the Ukrainian plane shot down if there were many planes flying there. And why would it be accidentally shot down if the people saw there were civilian planes coming and going all the time?
Russian troops? I just said proxy forces. They are Iranian. Brown people. Beards.Do you have evidence of significant Russian troop presence in Iran in an unofficial capacity like this?
.........how many times do I need to say "war"? And no, you just saying "no" doesn't dismiss that possibility.You have yet to establish how this "hurts the US". This hurts Iran, and Iran only.
No, you are just being deliberately obtuse. War is what Russia could gain from this. US-Iran war or Iranian civil war. Any war in Iran is profitable for Russia. Occam's razor works here, too. IF the plane wasn't shot down by accident, who would have most to gain from shooting down the plane? Russia.Again, what does Russia gain from this? How do they benefit from international, and domestic, anger at the Iranian government?
You're kinda going a bit space cadet with this dude. These are some Mr. Fantastic style reaches.
Which states on the Russian border are US proxy states?
The US isn't in Iran, and Iran and Iraq have had closer ties as of late. Neither is necessarily "up for grabs" in the slightest.
Iran cannot compete against the US military, especially if they don't get military backing from Russia. They would be crushed, and similar to Iraq/Afghanistan that would be the easiest part of the war. The hardest part would be picking up the pieces afterwards.
...and? Because Russia doesn't have an extensive hacking arm that's intruding into all kinds of private/government systems? You realize this just makes it less likely that Russia is behind this, right? It's absolutely possible, and if they were behind the strike they'd have checked to make sure they were hitting the right target to achieve their goals. Because this target achieves nothing for them.
It came from within Iranian territory by the looks of things, and these were missiles owned by the Iranian military. All evidence points to that, and nothing points to Russia. You're literally grasping at straws to make your argument work, and you're not actually grabbing ahold of any of them.