What exactly is the difference between Bfa-style MMO and Diablo 3-style ARPG?

[Elias01]

Again, not necessary since you could skip those quests or return when you had more gear. Additionally, everything after your first character just became that much easier. Part of the difficulty for most things was just that everything was so new. Mage was my second class that I lvled (after Paladin), so soloing all those elite quests actually became the goal.

I remember when I finally got my Mageblade after god knows how many fucking runs. No, by that point the gear didn't feel rewarding. Having the item drop and winning the roll didn't outweigh the colossal amount of bad luck I had for the runs leading up to it. The TRUE reward was not having to step foot into MC again on my mage. Meanwhile, my pally main still ran weekly MCs not for gear because by then it was all replaced with BWL and later gear, but we still ran it for the tiny chance of getting a legendary. It was a pretty braindead endeavor that most of us could AFK through for the most part. Just rinse, repeat, rinse, repeat, replace gear, replace gear, rinse, repeat. Like I said, everything was new back then, but by tier 2.5 the writing was on the wall. Never ending gear treadmill.

No you couldnt becouse by time you got better gear to actualy defeate them those q would not be relevant for you rewarding barely any exp and with absolote rewards. And gl.skiping them becouse thats lot of exp you will be missing later.

And you have literaly described retail. All you do is spaming same raid over and over only to increase difficulty level and do same content over and over so you can again increase difficulty. Its boring. In old game when i cleared t4 i start progressing t5. When i cleared t5 i start progressing t6. It was great adventure. This nonsense with uping difficulty levels doesnt hold any interest or desire in players to keep playing. Specialy not after clearing raid in LFR.

[Stickiler]

No you couldnt becouse by time you got better gear to actualy defeate them those q would not be relevant for you rewarding barely any exp and with absolote rewards. And gl.skiping them becouse thats lot of exp you will be missing later.

So are they irrelevent, "rewarding barely any exp", or super important "becouse thats lot of exp you will be missing later"

[Blackmist]

Diablo doesn't ration your fun to keep you subscribed...

[Craaazyyy]

WoW is an MMO. Diablo 3 is an hack-and-slash action role-playing game.

WoW these days is basically an ARPG with everything instanced

[Elias01]

So are they irrelevent, "rewarding barely any exp", or super important "becouse thats lot of exp you will be missing later"

Do tou realize that Q exp rewards decreses as you level right? So finishing lvl 15 Q on lvl 15 will give you 100% exp but at lvl 30 like 5% right? And if you skip them you will end up stuck grinding mobs for exp fill that lost experience. You clearly never played classic or you were one of those rushers what endlessly spammed dungeons.

[Adamas102]

No you couldnt becouse by time you got better gear to actualy defeate them those q would not be relevant for you rewarding barely any exp and with absolote rewards. And gl.skiping them becouse thats lot of exp you will be missing later.

And you have literaly described retail. All you do is spaming same raid over and over only to increase difficulty level and do same content over and over so you can again increase difficulty. Its boring. In old game when i cleared t4 i start progressing t5. When i cleared t5 i start progressing t6. It was great adventure. This nonsense with uping difficulty levels doesnt hold any interest or desire in players to keep playing. Specialy not after clearing raid in LFR.

Of course you could skip them. Could it hamper your leveling? Possibly, but you said WoW FORCED group play outside instances which it didn't.

And yeah, I did describe retail because it hasn't changed at all since vanilla. What I really described was just WoW. I would wager most guilds don't "progress" through the difficulties. Based on my experience at least you're either in a normal raiding guild, a heroic raiding guild, or a mythic raiding guild. You raid in your difficulty until the next raid comes out then you progress (just like back in the day). MAYBE if there's some time between when you have the raid on farm and the next one comes out you dip a toe into the following difficulty, but guilds as a whole don't go normal>heroic>mythic>normal>heroic>mythic.

People like to believe the lie that epic gear meant something in vanilla. That running a raid over and over and over again to get a piece of loot felt rewarding, but I very much remember replacing plenty of purples back then as well. I imagine most of the people who believe anything changed just didn't raid that much back then. Obviously things just became that much more apparent when expansions reset gear each time.

[Elias01]

Persistent world and character + many people interacting together.
WoW is an MMORPG.

You can be butthurt about the direction of the current design all you want, but it's still an MMO.

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The above goes to you as well. WoW is nothing like ARPG.

Noabady is interacting together. Specialy not in the world. Why would they they dont have to when everything is soloable without any threat or danger.

Yesterday i was leveling in Westfall. And i meet this other dwarf priest. He was killing harvests and becouse i was doing same q i invited him. We end up playing together for abother 45 minutes, finish several quests what would otherwise be pain to do solo and actualy talk to each other. Then he left becouse he had to go to the hairdresser. I have had this type of experience in moder game since WOTLK. And exactly this type of experiences is what make classic better mmo than retail.

[Craaazyyy]

The above goes to you as well. WoW is nothing like ARPG.

current gearing is basically the same as in any ARPG essentially and the opposite of what you usually have in an MMO.. on top of that M+ is basically stoled design from ARPG's, WoW also has more and more instanced.. and is being designed basically as an instanced group ARPG.. hell they even prune the classes so they can have fewer buttons, some even have as many as you have in some ARPG's

basically ARPG's are always based on random gearing and having no cooldowns on content for so called infinite replayability.. WoW is going into the same direction

[Kumorii]

Noabady is interacting together. Specialy not in the world. Why would they they dont have to when everything is soloable without any threat or danger.

Yesterday i was leveling in Westfall. And i meet this other dwarf priest. He was killing harvests and becouse i was doing same q i invited him. We end up playing together for abother 45 minutes, finish several quests what would otherwise be pain to do solo and actualy talk to each other. Then he left becouse he had to go to the hairdresser. I have had this type of experience in moder game since WOTLK. And exactly this type of experiences is what make classic better mmo than retail.

I did uldum invasion and encountered a player doing the same quest in an area and he invited me, we helped each other and I stayed killing elites until he got his drop after I got mine...

Weird absolutes you are drawing. I've had 0 interaction and met players who refuse to help or avoid contact both in modern wow and in vanilla and in all expansions I've played... and I've also met people who help each other in each expansion. What exactly is your point? Do you absolutely believe no one help each other in BfA? If so, you are delusional at worst, projecting at best. Engage with players and they more times than not engage back...you should try it.

[Zelk]

Diablo has set items when it really doesn't need them and wow lacks set items and desperately needs them

[Justpassing]

An apple is just like an orange if you disregard how an apple isn't like an orange.

This is some thread, man.

[Thelyron]

The gameplay?

[Elias01]

I did uldum invasion and encountered a player doing the same quest in an area and he invited me, we helped each other and I stayed killing elites until he got his drop after I got mine...

Weird absolutes you are drawing. I've had 0 interaction and met players who refuse to help or avoid contact both in modern wow and in vanilla and in all expansions I've played... and I've also met people who help each other in each expansion. What exactly is your point? Do you absolutely believe no one help each other in BfA? If so, you are delusional at worst, projecting at best. Engage with players and they more times than not engage back...you should try it.

Small tip. Learn to lie. You did not meet anyone and nobady invited you. Modern game have mob tags shared and there is literaly no reason to invite anyone into your party as world content is absolute faceroll including elite mobs. Most of time other players are rather annoyance in modern game. Like Rustfeather in Mechagon would be much better if no other players would be in that zone so i have higher chance to actualy kill him befor is zerged by others.

[Kumorii]

Small tip. Learn to lie. You did not meet anyone and nobady invited you.

So no point in talking then since you decide what I've encountered and experienced. Good talk.
Just because you don't want to invite people doesn't mean others don't. I've grouped up multiple times and I see constant talk in general chat to help each other with things such as rares... keep your head in the sand if you like.

[George Costanza]

Abit more control over character progression in d3 compared to wow, dunno about PoE but from what i can tell there is more control and more theorycrafting and shit.

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I fucking miss marvel heroes omega though it was fun to just lvl characters there.

[Daedius]

D3 is a hack an slasher where you're consistently killing swarms of mobs. WoW isn't close to that, obviously... but the downplay and features are similar.

[Kralljin]

The core system design comes from very early MMOs and has clear MUD pedigree.

Compared to Classic, those systems have been pretty much led astray.

There's raids, which haven't been changed that fundamentally since then, but systems like M+,AP or Corruption (or at very least, its randomness) aren't exactly things that would ever be present there.

[Kralljin]

Yes, they've added all kinds of features on top of it, it's been in active development for 15 years. Of course.

You can argue over it being MMORPG or not all you want, but it's not like the addition of the most recent systems are simply something you generally find in APRG's.

M+ is built upon infinite repetition, despite that the game has previously only awarded this quality of loot on a lockout basis.
Corruption in both its randomness and design is also something you'd expect in an APRG, it's designed to find the sweet spot while dancing on razor's edge, which is something that i don't really mixes very well with WoW's design.
It works in an enviroment where you quickly move from fight to fight, not where you spend 3-5min with a single enemy while also handling a variety of encounter specific mechanics.

The core of WoW is character progression, the newer systems nowadays seem to primarily aim at gameplay with putting character progression behind it.
You can argue over corruption being a good or bad systems in terms of gameplay, but the better question in the context of the overarching design of WoW should be:
Is it a better system to progress your character?

And i will say no, it's not fun to rely entirely on Simcraft to figure out what's best for your character, it's not fun to wear random piece X because it happens to have the best corruption and it's not fun having to choose between cleansing an item, letting it rot in your bags until your resistance is high enough or until you can slap a socket onto it.

WoW used to be a game of finite (power) progression, yet newer systems are clearly aimed at establishing a gameplay loop of infinite power progression, which is something some people expect in ARPG's and not in WoW - because it wasn't present in there until Legion.

The issues of BfA are are a result of that paradigm shift.
Character progression is no longer fun, so the gameplay has to carry the game.

What happens if you release an expansion that in terms of gameplay is quite frankly a downgraded version of its predecessor (Legion in that case)?
People will shit on it, that's what happened in BfA, both Class design and new game modes such as Warfronts and Island expedition fell through, Azerite armor didn't turn out to be that big of a source of customization as people had it hoped to be.

That's why people dislike BfA, its weak gameplay and that it continued the increased RNG trend as far as character progression is concerned.
If you then throw in a system such as AP, an extremely weak and not very fun progression system, then you have a recipe for disaster.

The central question of this debate should be:
What is the core of WoW?
Is the gameplay?
Then i hope the next expansions learned where BfA failed and we pray that Blizzard never screws up the gameplay like they did in BfA.

Or is it character progression?
Something that has quite frankly carried the game for like 10 years, because this increased randomness and reliance on simulations is not fun.

[Kralljin]

You watch too much Bellular

People already joked about World of Diablocraft when Legion was announced.
So yeah, there's that.

[Onikaroshi]

Thats not what mmorpg means. Classic is mmo. Moder game is not. Entire wow content can be cleared solo with 0 interaction with players. And entire high end content adopted mane elements from aprg.like mythic+, difficulty levels, infinite gear progression. Non of that belongs into true mmorpg game which is all about forcing players into groupplay in vast open, immersive world. No this modern instanced fast paced non immersive simulation.

You don't get to decided what the definition is. Modern MMO's do not force grouping in the open world (you can level entirely without grouping in Vanilla, don't play dumb). And no, just because you solo queue for LFR doesn't mean it's a solo experience. I have never been in an LFR where there hasn't been some sort of banter and you still rely on those other people. Try doing Prophet with zero communication.

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Is that the difference between an ARPG and an MMO? An ARPG is meant to be solo while an MMO is meant to be group play?

Well, MMO is an MMO based on the definition of massively multiplayer online. You can have an MMOARPG (a la Lost Ark)