New interview with Steve Danuser about BfA

[Raisei]

Why would he be in Shadowlands when Blizzard already said Old Gods (and other Void crap) don't go to Shadowlands when they die?

Aren't you the one that constantly points out that the lore makes no sense or is ignored or changed by the Devil Christie Golden? Why then could this not be changed? Feels like by this point you just critizise me to critizise. Oh well.

Besides, just because Shadowlands is the main area and central theme of the expansion does not mean that we will be in the Shadowlands the entire time. 9.3. could very well take us somewhere else, like 8.3. took us to Ny'alotha and 8.2. took us to Nazjatar

And what exactly do you have to establish the causal link between SWTOR's story and its content issues (when SWTOR had much more glaring issues like piss-poor choice of an engine for an MMO to start with) that you're touting to be true fact right here other than your confirmation bias and other fantasies?

Did I drive over your puppy this morning or something? Why this nonesensical attack from the left field, I wasn't even talking to you.

Obviously I cannot prove it, because the devs would never outright say these things, they'd be quite stupid to, but it is quite clear that the last expansions were focussed on a single-player story told in chapters. The raid content added were like 4-5 single bosses. The non-existant balance between these two things is glaring and requires very little hard fact to be believed.

Never mind that @Jastall's post had nothing to do with how the game is as a whole, so your argument as to why their argument apparently "doesn't hold up" is a complete non sequitur.

Hardly. He put SWTOR as an example for good story telling. I countered that to achieve this they had to reduce focus on other aspects of the game. Something WoW has luckily not done.
Ergo I pointed out that comparing games with completely different foci is not a fair comparison. It's like complaining that Basketball players do not jump as high as high jumpers.

Wow, he one shot a Fel Reaver. Such "epicness". Never mind that he had a gunship with multiple guns aimed (by the Fel Reaver itself) right at its face. And what a screenplay it was. Varian acting like a "badass" straight out of 80s cartoons like He-man, dialogue as generic as it gets (even for WoW). And the Saurfang cinematics are even worse, they are a mess that fall apart at the seams all by themselves.

Yeah, I am sure if the same scene was performed by Sylvanas you'd go nuts in defending it. I know your bias against anything and everyone on the Alliance side and everything connected to them (which includes Saurfang by now). Not sure what you feel you have to prove by attacking my taste in cinematics, but sure, have fun.

A fascinating conclusion to be sure, but you fawning over what a godlike company Blizzard is overall doesn't matter to a specific point about a specific facet of their work like @Jastall's.

And your constant biased and unfounded attacks against people that have not even been talking to you nor do they wish to, because it always ends the same, doesn't matter either nor does it make for a good argument.

[Syegfryed]

sip.

The interesting thing about this story is when you write down what happened, it become even more pathetic and worse, like, sure MMO lore is not a book, but they can write down and read what they are making right? and this still come to play, is terrifying.

And after spending the entire expansion saying this is not mop 2,0, He come public to say it was mop 2.0 but intentional with ~~nUaNcEs~~, he have to be joking

[Verdugo]

Yeah, I am sure if the same scene was performed by Sylvanas you'd go nuts in defending it. I know your bias against anything and everyone on the Alliance side and everything connected to them (which includes Saurfang by now). Not sure what you feel you have to prove by attacking my taste in cinematics, but sure, have fun.

Her lines in Shadowlands intro are as bad, if not worse. Please dont even bother to hide your bias, you fail miserably when you try.

[Syegfryed]

Her lines in Shadowlands intro are as bad, if not worse. Please dont even bother to hide your bias, you fail miserably when you try.

im still searching for how she heard the lines Terenas said to Arthas in top of icecrown, or when Yog'saron talk to us in ulduar.

Her display and lines were cringe rule of cool effect as fuck, not even to make an actual fight.

[Verdugo]

im still searching for how she heard the lines Terenas said to Arthas in top of icecrown, or when Yog'saron talk to us in ulduar.

Her display and lines were cringe rule of cool effect as fuck, not even to make an actual fight.

And her voice since the end of WotLK doesnt help.

[Nagawithlegs]

And, pray tell, when did we learn that she sent them to their death in Nazjatar again? Do jog my memory here.

N'zoth fight, Azshara/Sylvanas conversation.

Azshara: We have a bargain, then. I will bring both fleets crashing to the ocean floor, and your champion will deliver the dagger to me.
Sylvanas: And in turn, you will have the key required to free the Old God from his bonds... and leave him vulnerable.
Azshara: You wound me, Warchief. After all, I am as dedicated to my master as you are to your subjects.
Sylvanas: Indeed. Just be certain that once you have what you need, you dispose of your guests. Let none of the "heroes" escape.

[Mehrunes]

Aren't you the one that constantly points out that the lore makes no sense or is ignored or changed by the Devil Christie Golden? Why then could this not be changed? Feels like by this point you just critizise me to critizise. Oh well.

"But what if the story gets retconned again in the future precisely in a way that matches with my views" isn't an argument, nor is it in any way relevant or comparable to Blizzard receiving criticism for the sloppy retcons they actually made already. And what's with the devil Christie Golden projection?

Did I drive over your puppy this morning or something? Why this nonesensical attack from the left field, I wasn't even talking to you.

Painting yourself as some kind of a victim to deflect from the fact the fallacious nature of your post has been pointed out to you isn't particularly effective or impressive. You posted on a public forum. I replied to your post because that's what forums are for. If you can't handle the nature of forums you could have PMed @Jastall instead.

Obviously I cannot prove it, because the devs would never outright say these things, they'd be quite stupid to, but it is quite clear that the last expansions were focussed on a single-player story told in chapters. The raid content added were like 4-5 single bosses. The non-existant balance between these two things is glaring and requires very little hard fact to be believed.

So your argument in support of your claims that the raid aspect of SWTOR got reduced because of the solo aspect is simply to point out again how there is less raid content and yet the solo content was not affected the same way? That's not how causality works. Or evidence, for that matter.

Hardly. He put SWTOR as an example for good story telling. I countered that to achieve this they had to reduce focus on other aspects of the game. Something WoW has luckily not done.
Ergo I pointed out that comparing games with completely different foci is not a fair comparison. It's like complaining that Basketball players do not jump as high as high jumpers.

I'm sorry, but I vaguely recall that you said that you have no proof of your claims about the causal link between SWTOR's storytelling and their flaws in other aspects just a paragraph ago. And yet here you are, presenting it as factual again. How quaint.

Never mind that @Jastall said nothing at all about how it'd come free of charge. So you din't counter anything no matter how hard you want to pretend otherwise. Not that Blizzard is actually lacking resources for the story. They are blowing money on things like Saurfang cinematics, books and whatnot. So the issue isn't with them not having the resources for the story, it's with them simply writing garbage. I know Blizzard's excuse for not doing anything to improve the game is "it'd cost us a raid tier" which you'd apparently bought into, but simply not writing garbage that contradicts itself every five seconds wouldn't actually have that effect.

For that matter, for all you know Jastall considers to be the other aspects of WoW to be equally bad as its story, making your "counter" of what wonders Blizzard shitting on the story results in rather pointless either way.

And even if one was to play along here and accept your tangent as actually relevant, your reply would still be fallacious. It's just in this case the fallacy changes from non sequitur to cherrypicking. Because Jastall also provided examples of FFXIV and Warframe. Which are not lacking in the multiplayer content department despite their story. So your claim how it's not a fair comparison went up in flames. Likewise, this showcases how your attempts at pinning SWTOR's shortfalls specifically on the story are highly questionable at best.

Yeah, I am sure if the same scene was performed by Sylvanas you'd go nuts in defending it. I know your bias against anything and everyone on the Alliance side and everything connected to them (which includes Saurfang by now). Not sure what you feel you have to prove by attacking my taste in cinematics, but sure, have fun.

Extremely weak projections do work that way, yes. But you being sure of your fantasies is neither here nor there. Slapping a faction slogan on a person pressed by the antagonist is generic dialogue regardless of who says it. Especially when the slogans are generic in and of themselves. Hell, take the antagonist out and it's still generic. Just like when Sylvanas went all "For the Horde" during the BfA cinematic. But hey, here I go nuts defending that cinematic

And your constant biased and unfounded attacks against people that have not even been talking to you nor do they wish to, because it always ends the same, doesn't matter either nor does it make for a good argument.

Gonna repeat myself here, but painting yourself as some kind of a victim to deflect from the fact the fallacious nature of your post has been pointed out to you isn't particularly effective or impressive. You posted on a public forum. I replied to your post because that's what forums are for. If you can't handle the nature of forums you could have PMed @Jastall instead.

Especially if the painting attempt is this weak. A singular reply isn't "constant attack", pointing out your fallacies isn't an "attack" in general and pointing out the fallacious nature of fallacious argument isn't "unfounded".

And if you don't wish to talk to me you could have, I dunno, not replied to me. It's actually this simple.

[Rinaul]

I mean you're not wrong. I can guarantee if I just stayed off this cancerous forum I would have enjoyed the expansion's story. It has a lot of really impressive moments, but we've got people who are die hard determined to hate it the milisecond it reaches PTR. Or sooner, with rabid fearmongering and speculation. That went on the entire expansion. Quite frankly it was exhausting.

The worst part of this expansion was this community. Azerite armor only comes in 2nd.

Agreed. On every part.

[Orby]

Soudns like a sound interview, I loved the story of BfA.... well half of it anyway. The good bits were good like Jaina's story arc which i'll be damned if it isnt Blizzard best storytelling in ages from them, they literally saved us from emo Jaina after making her such in MoP (which they never should have done to begin with) and Saurfangs story arc which led to Old Soldier probably Blizzard best cinematic so far.

The stuff with Sylvanas and the few plotholes between patches let it down for me, and the Vision of Z'Zoth patch was a giant let down. But Its not the worst Expansion in terms of storytelling (Cataclysm still holds that trophy)

Lol, really, ignorant as ever.

And he kind of admitted they straight up lied to the fans when saying Sylvanas won't be Garrosh 2.0. - No instead she's a Garrosh 2.0 with nuances... with a shade of purple maybe?

These old white men at Blizzard are just complacent dickheads. If they haven't learned how to make a good expac or tell a good story by now, they most likely never will.

How is that a bad thing, everyone joked "lol Blizzard making Sylvanas Garrosh 2.0 Blizzard suck and are unoriginal" now you are upset she isn't Garrosh 2.0.... The fickle levels are off the charts when it comes to this forum.

[Varodoc]

By the way, when they said she wasn't Garrosh 2.0, they were just referring to the fact that she wouldn't be held in chains and that Garrosh was an amateur compared to her (since Garrosh didn't want to commit mundicide). It's clear they weren't referring to the idea that Sylvanas wouldn't be dethroned for being an evil Warchief. So technically they didn't lie, because Sylvanas wasn't captured, and she is indeed a far worse destructive force than Garrosh.

[Syegfryed]

How is that a bad thing, everyone joked "lol Blizzard making Sylvanas Garrosh 2.0 Blizzard suck and are unoriginal" now you are upset she isn't Garrosh 2.0.... The fickle levels are off the charts when it comes to this forum.

I pretty sure he is upset that she is Garrosh 2.0, since they straight up admit that.

- - - Updated - - -

By the way, when they said she wasn't Garrosh 2.0, they were just referring to the fact that she wouldn't be held in chains and that Garrosh was an amateur compared to her (since Garrosh didn't want to commit mundicide). It's clear they weren't referring to the idea that Sylvanas wouldn't be dethroned for being an evil Warchief. So technically they didn't lie, because Sylvanas wasn't captured, and she is indeed a far worse destructive force than Garrosh.

if you to work with the words and "technicality" so much trying to make this point it clearly show their problem with this story.

[Raisei]

Painting yourself as some kind of a victim to deflect from the fact the fallacious nature of your post has been pointed out to you isn't particularly effective or impressive. You posted on a public forum. I replied to your post because that's what forums are for. If you can't handle the nature of forums you could have PMed @Jastall instead.

Oh I am not a victim, I know I can be confrontational, but I very much doubt it is your place to defend this guy. Not that I even attacked him halve as much as you attacked me for some reason. I just explained why his argument was problematic, based on circumstantial evidence that I was myself witness to. You proceeded to insult me instantly and you keep doing it, expecting people to revere you as some kind of teacher god that tells everyone the truth.

So your argument in support of your claims that the raid aspect of SWTOR got reduced because of the solo aspect is simply to point out again how there is less raid content and yet the solo content was not affected the same way? That's not how causality works. Or evidence, for that matter.

There IS more solo content, that is what the game is about now. There are like 20 chapters of solo content to play through. Of course that is not much content to begin with, but it a ton more solo content then raid content or group content. On top of that all dungeons have a solo mode, so you do not even have to group up for those. I did actually play SWTOR when it launched and went back precisely to play the story a few month ago, so I know what I am talking about. Not sure where you get your information, but if you need the Devs to come out and say that they ignored the raiding community for years then you will never get a satisfying answer. Which I am pretty sure is what you want anyway.

For that matter, for all you know Jastall considers to be the other aspects of WoW to be equally bad as its story, making your "counter" of what wonders Blizzard shitting on the story results in rather pointless either way.

Still not sure when you became his attorney in law, but sure. Turn it all you want, I explained my point 3 times now, you do not want to understand it, so it is pointless to keep talking.

Extremely weak projections do work that way, yes. But you being sure of your fantasies is neither here nor there. Slapping a faction slogan on a person pressed by the antagonist is generic dialogue regardless of who says it. Especially when the slogans are generic in and of themselves. Hell, take the antagonist out and it's still generic. Just like when Sylvanas went all "For the Horde" during the BfA cinematic. But hey, here I go nuts defending that cinematic

Not so much a point as an analysis of your post history in various threads. You have not said anything positive about an Alliance character in the last years and you proceed to attack those people that do and I still am foggy on why you think attacking my taste in cinematics makes for a good argument. Guess you will do you anyhow.

Especially if the painting attempt is this weak. A singular reply isn't "constant attack", pointing out your fallacies isn't an "attack" in general and pointing out the fallacious nature of fallacious argument isn't "unfounded".

And if you don't wish to talk to me you could have, I dunno, not replied to me. It's actually this simple.

Considering you called my arguments "fantasies" and did not even understand what they were nor have the knowledge of the game in question to refute them and then insulted me for liking a cinematic... yeah I am gonna stick with "attack".

Forums are for discussions, which I did with Jastalls post. I did not say he made up something, did not call his point a fantasy and did not insult him for it, I merely pointed out that there was a problem with it.

You simply jumped at me without even understanding what I wrote nor did you have a point to make, you just went on slinging mud. That was why I even bothered to reply, because your behaviour sucked and I felt it necessary to point out, but as with all replies to your posts it was just completely wasted time.

[Jastall]

I am glad there is a chance we have not seen the last of N'zoth. I still want to see him on our side in Shadowlands, helping us destroy the Banshee once and for all.

The cycle of hatred is an interesting concept of course especially since the Old Gods have always talked about cycles, but it probably could have been implemented better. I mean we all knew Sylvanas was going to be Garrosh 2.0. we just hoped it would not be this way. The worrying thing is that I assume we will soon find out that Sylvanas goal is going to be "breaking the cycle" or "setting us free from the cycle", the same thing that Anduin and Jaina are trying to achieve, just with a different perspective.
While they choose to hope that the hostilities can seize between Horde and Alliance, Sylvanas has proven by now that she does not hope, so from her warped perspective it probably makes sense that the only way to break the cycle is killing everyone.



SWTOR had to completely remove any and all new raiding content and other challenging group content. There have been I think 5 or 6 Raid bosses (not raids, single raid bosses) added since the time my guild left them for WoW at the end of WoD and at that time the game had already gone through over a year without a new raid with the devs just stringing people along with empty promises or complete silence. Other then raids in this entire time the game has added 4-5 dungeons, all of which are completely soloable.
The story of SWTOR might be good (depending which class you play, some of those are pretty weak too), but the cost for this focus on story is steep. Basically the game is a single-player game now with a few optional group activities.

I say this because your comparison just doesn't hold up. SWTOR has thrown away and alienated a good part of it's playerbase by setting it's focus firmly on story and not giving a shit about groups content, WoW has delivered an enormous amount of group content in the same time because these MMO aspects are the core of WoW, story is secondary.

Legion and BFA have delivered a lot more story then any previous expansion, where you had 1 cinematic at the start and then a few cutscenes. Is the story as deep as SWTORs? Of course not. But it is more then adequate for the importance it has for the game.

Besides, WoW is a ton better at making epic scenes. When I first saw the Broken Shore cinematic, with Varian one-shotting the Fel Reaver it blew me away (and I barely knew who Varian was at that time), the screenplay and music were just THAT good. Nothing in SWTOR ever created that feeling of epicness. The high res cinematics in BFA added to that.

WoW keeps delivering excellent group content and is stepping more into the realm of story telling with every expansion as a bonus. This is how you do MMO.

My point wasn't about the amount of story/content in the game at all, so I don't know why you harp on about those. Yeah, in terms of gameplay and content WoW trashes SWTOR, you're absolutely right. But we're talking about the writing here. SWTOR has a more interesting faction conflict, better written and more consistent characters, and generally sounds a lot less like a Saturday morning cartoon. It sure has its own shortcomings (the way they handled Revan was a travesty, for instance) but WoW's story has little but shortcomings outside of the big cinematic moments that sometimes don't make too much sense either or are badly handled, the Shadowlands cinematic being a prime example.

If you ask me what is the superior game/MMO overall, then I'll say WoW without a second thought. If you ask me which is better written, however, SWTOR also wins this hands down. Enter some of Bioware's other works and it ceases to be a competition entirely. Even by the fairly low standards of video games, WoW has pretty bad writing regardless of the fact that the devs have gotten pretty good at making cool cinematics.

[RadasNoir]

How is that a bad thing, everyone joked "lol Blizzard making Sylvanas Garrosh 2.0 Blizzard suck and are unoriginal" now you are upset she isn't Garrosh 2.0.... The fickle levels are off the charts when it comes to this forum.

Er...no?

People complained that Sylvanas was Garrosh 2.0.

Blizzard insisted that she wasn't.

Now, Danuser is outright admitting that they intentionally "echoed" the "road" Garrosh took.

Do you see why people are more than a little annoyed?

[Varodoc]

Er...no?

People complained that Sylvanas was Garrosh 2.0.

Blizzard insisted that she wasn't.

Now, Danuser is outright admitting that they intentionally "echoed" the "road" Garrosh took.

Do you see why people are more than a little annoyed?

When did they say she was not evil like Garrosh?

[Orby]

Er...no?

People complained that Sylvanas was Garrosh 2.0.

Blizzard insisted that she wasn't.

Now, Danuser is outright admitting that they intentionally "echoed" the "road" Garrosh took.

Do you see why people are more than a little annoyed?

No I do not, they only ever said that she would think of Garrosh as an amateur compared to her. I don;t ever remember them saying she was going to be Garrosh 2.0, the internet made that statement due to the direction of the lore at the time.

Although not that I need to defend Sylvanas, I have never liked the character anyway so have at it. :P

[RadasNoir]

When did they say she was not evil like Garrosh?

Er, where did I say that they said she was not evil like Garrosh?? How on Earth did you get that out of anything I wrote?

The point is, people were making comparisons between Garrosh and Sylvanas since pretty much the start of BFA, and up until this interview, Blizzard was just hand-waving those comparisons- if they acknowledged them at all.

[Varodoc]

Er, where did I say that they said she was not evil like Garrosh?? How on Earth did you get that out of anything I wrote?

The point is, people were making comparisons between Garrosh and Sylvanas since pretty much the start of BFA, and up until this interview, Blizzard was just hand-waving those comparisons- if they acknowledged them at all.

You said Blizzard insisted she wasn't Garrosh 2.0. Where did they state that?

I assume you are referring to her supposedly not being evil like him, because otherwise she indeed wasn't Garrosh 2.0; as she wasn't captured, and her motivations were much more similar to Arthas'.

[RadasNoir]

No I do not, they only ever said that she would think of Garrosh as an amateur compared to her. I don;t ever remember them saying she was going to be Garrosh 2.0, the internet made that statement due to the direction of the lore at the time.

Yes, and the Internet was right.

And only now, is one of the writers claiming that was the plan the entire time.

So, people are upset because either Blizzard was lying initially when they claimed Sylvanas was NOT Garrosh 2.0, or Danuser is lying now about that always being the plan. Or both.

[Syegfryed]

I don;t ever remember them saying she was going to be Garrosh 2.0,

exactly, they never said that before, they also said they were not the same

Now, they confirm they are the same but with ~~nUaNcEs~~