A time skip in 10.0 would make Tinkers possible.

[Triceron]

SO elf is the race of both of them, Blood and Night elf are sub races of the Main race so ya its one race.

Yeah no, that's not how it works. You might as well say they're Trolls too since they evolved from Trolls.

- - - Updated - - -

Except the Tinker has reappeared in other Warcraft media, indicating that it isn't anything different than the other established heroes. WC3 Remastered even (finally) attached Gazlowe to the Tinker concept. This (along with HotS) shows that the intention was for Gazlowe to be a Tinker way back in WC3.

Gazlowe is never associated with the Tinker though. Inspired, yes, but even in HotS he's never mentioned as being a Tinker.

WC3 Reforged is its own pile of mess. It's half canon half messed up. Naga Sea Witches had human ears, Ogres live in Draenei ruined buildings in the Rexxar campaign, Trolls all miss their hind toe, Hippogryphs had a total redesign... the models were pretty much done by a 3rd party that didn't really respect lore. I personally don't consider it a definitive source compared to original WC3. Reforged is really its own bag.

And you're arguing nothing more than your personal taste and opinion. MY point is that every expansion class has had the abilities of the WC3 counterpart translated into WoW. That is an indisputable fact. To say that a Tinker class with the exact same background as those other concepts would also get all of their WC3 abilities isn't wish fulfillment, it's looking at what happened before, seeing that the Tinker is in the exact same position as previous class inclusions, and making a logical conclusion.

I'm just saying that whenever the issue is brought up that we should have a Tinker that has Mech Forms, the suggestion that Druid would be able to do it is shut down by you on the basis of your own opinion that Pocket Factory wouldn't be able to be represented through class skins. We've gone over this many times and yes, your opinion is what gets in the way of having an actual discussion on what may be feasible. I'm just pointing out that based on the precedence of your opinion, a mech suit alone has never been enough to satisfy your idea of 'playing like Mekkatorque'. The goalpost always gets moved an inch or a mile at a time after we ever reach that consideration.

Soulburn, Incinerate, and the Elemental itself became Fire Elemental for the Shaman class. The entire concept was the basis for Ragnaros in WoW

And Engineering profession represents the Passive ability Tinkers have, which is accessible by any Gnome or Goblin class. You can make stun bombs with Engineering. Garrison Engneering lets you use Turrets. Mechagon introduced a whole bunch of tech stuff. Legion let you use a mech in combat.

The only thing I really see missing is a Mech Form in a class, and thats why I think Druid would work wonders as a class skin.

[Teriz]

Gazlowe is never associated with the Tinker though. Inspired, yes, but even in HotS he's never mentioned as being a Tinker.

Except he just happens to have the claw pack and Robo Goblin, both things that the Tinker had in WC3....

WC3 Reforged is its own pile of mess. It's half canon half messed up. Naga Sea Witches had human ears, Ogres live in Draenei ruined buildings in the Rexxar campaign, Trolls all miss their hind toe, Hippogryphs had a total redesign... the models were pretty much done by a 3rd party that didn't really respect lore. I personally don't consider it a definitive source compared to original WC3. Reforged is really its own bag.

Perhaps, but Gazlowe is still attached to the Tinker hero in WC3 Reforged. That isn't some random accident, that's something approved by Blizzard.

I'm just saying that whenever the issue is brought up that we should have a Tinker that has Mech Forms, the suggestion that Druid would be able to do it is shut down by you on the basis of your own opinion that Pocket Factory wouldn't be able to be represented through class skins. We've gone over this many times and yes, your opinion is what gets in the way of having an actual discussion on what may be feasible. I'm just pointing out that based on the precedence of your opinion, a mech suit alone has never been enough to satisfy your idea of 'playing like Mekkatorque'. The goalpost always gets moved an inch or a mile at a time after we ever reach that consideration.

It's shut down because Druids and Tinkers have literally nothing in common, and the notion that Blizzard would make a sub class is nonsense. Also the Tinker concept is far more than just a mech suit. It is the mech suit and the abilities that surround the mech suit, and the abilities of the Tinker heroes from both HotS and WC3. Again, other classes coming from WC3 have had their abilities translated. There's ZERO reason to believe that a Tinker's abilities wouldn't be translated as well.

And Engineering profession represents the Passive ability Tinkers have, which is accessible by any Gnome or Goblin class. You can make stun bombs with Engineering. Garrison Engneering lets you use Turrets. Mechagon introduced a whole bunch of tech stuff. Legion let you use a mech in combat.

The only thing I really see missing is a Mech Form in a class, and thats why I think Druid would work wonders as a class skin.

Stun bombs aren't a Tinker ability. The turrets from Garrison engineering aren't the upgradeable turrets from HotS. The mech in Legion is almost impossible to get, has limited uses, and is restricted to Broken Shore. Professions aren't classes, and themed knick knacks and trinkets aren't a replacement for class abilities.

It's hilarious how we must play these silly games when the obvious solution is to simply give the Tinker (and the Goblin Alchemist) the same treatment that the other open WC3 heroes received.

[Triceron]

Except he just happens to have the claw pack and Robo Goblin, both things that the Tinker had in WC3....

Not in WoW he doesn't. He's only shown having that in non-canon versions of Warcraft lore, namely Heroes of the Storm. Again, Reforged is a mixed bag since they never properly finished it as a remake, they just shoved whatever models they had made when they reached their deadline and let it be. So many inconsistencies in it it's unbelievable.

Perhaps, but Gazlowe is still attached to the Tinker hero in WC3 Reforged. That isn't some random accident, that's something approved by Blizzard.

If you've actually played Reforged you'd know how badly it was made. The campaign is full of model gaffes. You could say, the entire remaking of WC3 was an accident. It doesn't even have Ranked Play, Custom Campaigns or working Arranged Team. Approved by Blizzard? More like rushed out to keep as much of the pre-order cash as they could.

It's shut down because Druids and Tinkers have literally nothing in common

The commonality is form-based gameplay. A class that goes into a form and gains new abilities that are different than when humanoid form.

It's hilarious how we must play these silly games when the obvious solution is to simply give the Tinker (and the Goblin Alchemist) the same treatment that the other open WC3 heroes received.

Obvious to you because you're the one who wants to fulfill your status quo. Beyond this, Tinkers don't really have anything to do with Alchemy. Stuff like Transmute doesn't even apply to a Tinker, nor would Chemical Rage. Healing Spray would have to be reworked to fit the Tech theme, and Acid Bomb I could see but even then it's still a stretch. Byond that... Alchemy is already a profession.

[Teriz]

Not in WoW he doesn't. He's only shown having that in non-canon versions of Warcraft lore, namely Heroes of the Storm. Again, Reforged is a mixed bag since they never properly finished it as a remake, they just shoved whatever models they had made when they reached their deadline and let it be. So many inconsistencies in it it's unbelievable.

WC3 is canon though, and those attributes were present in both versions of the Tinker, indicating that Gazlowe in HotS is a Tinker. Blizzard further cemented this by giving Gazlowe his HotS abilities in WoW.

If you've actually played Reforged you'd know how badly it was made. The campaign is full of model gaffes. You could say, the entire remaking of WC3 was an accident. It doesn't even have Ranked Play, Custom Campaigns or working Arranged Team. Approved by Blizzard? More like rushed out to keep as much of the pre-order cash as they could.

Let’s make this simple; Do you honestly believe that Blizzard would attach a major character to a concept multiple times over multiple media by accident?

The commonality is form-based gameplay. A class that goes into a form and gains new abilities that are different than when humanoid form.

And there’s plenty of classes in WoW that share mechanics. That doesn’t mean that they should be subclasses or mirror classes of each other.

Obvious to you because you're the one who wants to fulfill your status quo. Again, there's plenty of evidence of the contrary that people who want Tinkers actually side with your idea of bringing in every WC3 ability and utilizing Alchemist abilities to boot. Stuff like Transmute doesn't even apply to a Tinker, nor would Chemical Rage. Healing Spray would have to be reworked to fit the Tech theme, and Acid Bomb I could see but even then it's still a stretch. Byond that... Alchemy is already a profession.

I’d like to see that evidence to the contrary. It would be a nice change of pace from the typical BS excuses that opponents bring to the table.

As for the Alchemist being incorporated into the Tinker, the Alchemist uses a spray gun, which is a tech device, so no problems there. Also Healing Spray and Adrenaline Bomb (which works exactly like Chemical Rage) were abilities used by Blackfuse engineers in SoO.

I could even see Transmute become a beam that turns a target into living stone for protection, or an enemy into gold for an instant kill. So yeah, no problem.

Also it should really be pointed out that NONE of the Alchemist’s abilities are in the Alchemist profession.

[Triceron]

WC3 is canon though, and those attributes were present in both versions of the Tinker, indicating that Gazlowe in HotS is a Tinker. Blizzard further cemented this by giving Gazlowe his HotS abilities in WoW.

WC3 is canon, and he's represented by Sappers in WC3.

HOTS is not canon, and to an extent, neither is Reforged. Have you seen Grom Hellscream in Reforged? He doesn't even have his full-black jaw tattooes that he's known for. They went with his WoD look, but it's asynchronous considering Garrosh gets a full black jaw tattoo because of Grom; and in the Reforged cinematics he has full black jaw still.

Let’s make this simple; Do you honestly believe that Blizzard would attach a major character to a concept multiple times over multiple media by accident?

Yes. They have done so many times before. There's plenty of non-canon material featured in multiple sources. So far, the only definitive lore comes from WoW itself. There's plenty of non-canon stuff from Hearthstone making its way into Heroes, and vice versa.

And there’s plenty of classes in WoW that share mechanics. That doesn’t mean that they should be subclasses or mirror classes of each other.

Of course not. But we're at a different point in time where new classes would disrupt a lot of the balance going into WoW, and it'd make sense to expand in parallel like Allied Races rather than create something completely new that messes with all the checks and balances they've worked up to for the past 6+ years.

As for the Alchemist being incorporated into the Tinker, the Alchemist uses a spray gun, which is a tech device, so no problems there. Also Healing Spray and Adrenaline Bomb (which works exactly like Chemical Rage) were abilities used by Blackfuse engineers in SoO.

A spray gun isn't really tech, and I mean the case your making here could just as easily apply as a perk or item made by Alchemy profession. Healing sprays and adrenaline bombs could easily be profession-based, so anyone could use em.

I could even see Transmute become a beam that turns a target into living stone for protection, or an enemy into gold for an instant kill. So yeah, no problem.[/QUOTE]

[Syegfryed]

Again: my claims are much more likely to be factual than yours,

ah yes, now you are into that, "my is more likely" "mine is bigger, "mine is better", thats the kind of behaviour i would expect from you

But it hasn't because your ass is still glued to your 'high horse', which also wearing platform horseshoes, too.

what is this, kindergaden now, you want to be better even in the gags?

So, a 10 in a test is not good?

nice way of trying to dismiss what is said, just to not give up with your nonsnese

But we know this is false, since we have tinkers of other Azerothian races

proof? and please don't come with the tinkologists, cause by your own words they might be and are for a fact are completely different things

Again dude, the discussion is over, you even admitted yourself, you are talking water, you just don't want to let the bone go and want the last word in the discussion, yours "mine is more liekly" completely show your true colors..

[Teriz]

WC3 is canon, and he's represented by Sappers in WC3.

HOTS is not canon, and to an extent, neither is Reforged. Have you seen Grom Hellscream in Reforged? He doesn't even have his full-black jaw tattooes that he's known for. They went with his WoD look, but it's asynchronous considering Garrosh gets a full black jaw tattoo because of Grom; and in the Reforged cinematics he has full black jaw still.

So let's recap (and stick just to Tinkers and Gazlowe); The Tinker hero was released at the tail end of The Frozen Throne, long after the cinematic was done featuring Gazlowe as a Sapper. Later, the Tinker shows up in the Warcraft RPG, a Goblin Tinker appears in Vanilla WoW, and Tinkers show up in the WoW CCG. Starting around WoD, Blizzard began assigning Tinker/Inventor concepts to Gazlowe, having him repair shredders, and eventually getting a Shredder of his own in Legion with his own unique abilities. Around the same time HotS rolls around, and originally Gazlowe was called the Tinker:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EA_WWclrQU

Complete with the claw pack and the ultimate Tinker ability from WC3. Gazlowe, then received the abilities from HotS in WoW via the Island Expedition teams, and we finally have Gazlowe show up as a Tinker in WC3 reforged.

So if we stop being obtuse, it's rather easy to see how Blizzard is developing and pushing the character, and how they are tying him (along with Mekkatorque) to be the lore hero of the Tinker concept.

Yes. They have done so many times before. There's plenty of non-canon material featured in multiple sources. So far, the only definitive lore comes from WoW itself. There's plenty of non-canon stuff from Hearthstone making its way into Heroes, and vice versa.

Oh? Please name those major lore characters since you say it happened "many times before".

Of course not. But we're at a different point in time where new classes would disrupt a lot of the balance going into WoW, and it'd make sense to expand in parallel like Allied Races rather than create something completely new that messes with all the checks and balances they've worked up to for the past 6+ years.

That's your interpretation. Blizzard has never said that new classes have disrupted the balance of WoW, or that they've reached a crisis point with class balance to the point where they can't create new classes. In fact, the exact opposite is true based on their statements over the years. The ONLY issue they said they have with class inclusion is if it fits in the expansion they're working on, and if it takes too much design away from existing classes.

A spray gun isn't really tech, and I mean the case your making here could just as easily apply as a perk or item made by Alchemy profession. Healing sprays and adrenaline bombs could easily be profession-based, so anyone could use em.

You do know that spray guns weren't invented until the late industrial era (1880s) right? It's not exactly medieval tech. Utilizing a spray gun is pretty high tech for a high fantasy setting. Chemical weaponry is very much a technology based concept, and a healing spec that utilizes chemicals definitely fits into a tech class concept.

[Triceron]

So if we stop being obtuse, it's rather easy to see how Blizzard is developing and pushing the character, and how they are tying him (along with Mekkatorque) to be the lore hero of the Tinker concept.

Except that none of those are technically canonized in WoW.

Let's take Greymane for example.

If we were to extrapolate Genn's appearance in Hearthstone and Heroes of the Storm. His Hearthstone picture shows grey fur Worgen holding a pistol; Heroes of the Storm has him with very dark grey fur and he uses Pistol/Sword combo. He even has a stealth component. Who uses pistols/sword and has stealth in WoW? Outlaw Rogue.

When we talk about WoW, then Greymane in WoW is already clearly defined. He doesn't use Pistols, his fur is White, and he fights primarily in his Worgen form without any swords or daggers. He does absolutely nothing Rogue-like in WoW.

Greymane using Pistols or being Rogue-like is not officially canonized in WoW. It could be, but it isn't.

Oh? Please name those major lore characters since you say it happened "many times before".

Genn is shown in Hearthstone and Heroes of the Storm using and holding a pistol. He even has stealth and fights with a 1h sabre, bridging that Rogue connection even further. The only class that uses a 1h pistol/sword combo in WoW would be Outlaw Rogue. Yet we know through the cinematics and in WoW that he is not an Outlaw Rogue, nor does he fight like one.

Maiev is the Rogue representative in Hearthstone. Yet the Warden is a defined class on its own. She does not stealth, she uses a large weapon and does not dual wield, and she uses magic. She is not a Rogue, and her concept is a Warden despite Hearthstone classifying her as such.

Tyrande is a Priestess of the Moon. In Hearthstone she is the Priest representative, but she isn't a Priest. She is shown clearly using a bow and the Priest class does not have any bow-related abilities. She is not a Hunter either by means of simply using a bow; and her full kit in Heroes of the Storm is indicative that she is clearly a Priestess of the Moon. In WoW, she would be classified as a Priest/Druid (Starfall)/Hunter hybrid, which doesn't formally exist as any singular playable class.

That's your interpretation. Blizzard has never said that new classes have disrupted the balance of WoW, or that they've reached a crisis point with class balance to the point where they can't create new classes.

They never said WC3 abilities would all make it into WoW either.

You do know that spray guns weren't invented until the late industrial era (1880s) right?

You know Warcraft isn't real history right?

[Teriz]

Except that none of those are technically canonized in WoW.

And they don’t need to be. Blizzard moving the Tinker abilities from HotS into WoW and giving them to Gazlowe makes the connection, and shows that Blizzard recognizes the connection.

Let's take Greymane for example.

If we were to extrapolate Genn's appearance in Hearthstone and Heroes of the Storm. His Hearthstone picture shows grey fur Worgen holding a pistol; Heroes of the Storm has him with very dark grey fur and he uses Pistol/Sword combo. He even has a stealth component. Who uses pistols/sword and has stealth in WoW? Outlaw Rogue.

When we talk about WoW, then Greymane in WoW is already clearly defined. He doesn't use Pistols, his fur is White, and he fights primarily in his Worgen form without any swords or daggers. He does absolutely nothing Rogue-like in WoW.

Greymane using Pistols or being Rogue-like is not officially canonized in WoW. It could be, but it isn't.

Well no, because Greymayne is never shown fighting in his human form (like in HotS). He is only shown fighting in his beastial form with his teeth and claws. Unfortunately, Blizzard won’t give Worgen a werewolf form to fight in because that would break game balance and mess up their lore (basically they dislike fighting like beasts and want to retain their humanity). Instead Blizzard attempts to have their racials compensate.

Genn is shown in Hearthstone and Heroes of the Storm using and holding a pistol. He even has stealth and fights with a 1h sabre, bridging that Rogue connection even further. The only class that uses a 1h pistol/sword combo in WoW would be Outlaw Rogue. Yet we know through the cinematics and in WoW that he is not an Outlaw Rogue, nor does he fight like one.

Maiev is the Rogue representative in Hearthstone. Yet the Warden is a defined class on its own. She does not stealth, she uses a large weapon and does not dual wield, and she uses magic. She is not a Rogue, and her concept is a Warden despite Hearthstone classifying her as such.

Tyrande is a Priestess of the Moon. In Hearthstone she is the Priest representative, but she isn't a Priest. She is shown clearly using a bow and the Priest class does not have any bow-related abilities. She is not a Hunter either by means of simply using a bow; and her full kit in Heroes of the Storm is indicative that she is clearly a Priestess of the Moon. In WoW, she would be classified as a Priest/Druid (Starfall)/Hunter hybrid, which doesn't formally exist as any singular playable class.

You obviously didn’t understand what I was talking about. I’ve already explained Genn. The thing about Wardens is that they have very similar attributes to Rogues, and they even have a few of their abilities. Blizzard attaching them to Rogues isn’t an accident.

Tyrande was the basis for the Priestess of the Moon hero. So it makes sense that she would be a Hunter/Priest hybrid. This is why she has a bow, but can also heal in HotS. It also makes sense that she would be a Priest character in HS. Again, hardly an accident.

Your earlier argument for Gazlowe being a Tinker was that Blizzard screwed up WC3 Reforged, so Gazlowe in being a Tinker in that game was some sort of fluke. Seemingly ignoring all the other times Blizzard has connected Gazlowe to the Tinker concept, which you’re also implying are simply flukes, and not Blizzard purposely attaching Gazlowe to Tinkers.

They never said WC3 abilities would all make it into WoW either.

No, but do they really need to say it when they pretty much did it? Also why would every hero in WC3 have abilities either in name, function, or both in the WoW class lineup EXCEPT for the Tinker and Alchemist?

You know Warcraft isn't real history right?

I never said it was. I’m saying that spray guns are technological devices. In short, a spray gun ability lines up quite well with a technology-based class.

[Ielenia]

ah yes, now you are into that, "my is more likely" "mine is bigger, "mine is better", thats the kind of behaviour i would expect from you

Dude. Your only evidence that they're not the same is your desire that they shouldn't be the same. Meanwhile, what little evidence the game provides points more toward the idea that both are likely to be the same.

nice way of trying to dismiss what is said, just to not give up with your nonsnese

I didn't dismiss it. This was my original statement:

You mentioned "good" and "excellent" before. Show me an example where something is "excellent" BUT NOT "good".

proof?

Check the Alliance Mechagon intro cinematic, and you'll see Tinkmaster Overspark calling his team "the best and the brightest tinkologists". You'll also see a human and a night elf in the group.

- - - Updated - - -

Is it, or is it not a fact that all three expansion classes are tied to heroes from WC3?

You're moving the goalposts. This was your original claim:

Up to this point a WC3 hero has been required for the expansion classes.

You explicitly claimed a WC3 hero is required for the creation of an expansion class, and that is the claim that I'm contesting.

Point me to August Celestials in Chinese folklore that have the exact appearance and names as the celestials in WoW please.

Being inspired by something doesn’t mean that the ENTIRE concept isn’t your creation.

Are you on drugs or something? I said designed around. I didn't say "copy-paste". I mean, fuck. Check the Wikipedia entry for "sacred chinese animals", and you'll get a list that looks... very familiar: "Azure Dragon" (whose associated color is GREEN), "White Tiger", and "Vermilion Bird". There is a fourth one called "black turtle". It's not an ox, but it's still black. And 'ox' is one of the 28 mansions of the chinese constelations, and one of the 'mansions' of the Black Turtle. And as for the martial arts moves used for the monk, does this look familiar to you? And this?

Except we’re talking about an ability that performs a version of Life Steal. Life stealing is a hallmark of vampiric abilities in RPGs. The priest abilities and Death Pact are examples of such abilities.

Even if I granted you that... that is not a blood ability. That is a frost and unholy talent. The blood spec doesn't have that.

And yet I’m still seeing the entire back of the character in each picture. I really can’t believe you don’t see how ridiculous you look pretending that these are entirely different angles that are outside of the camera being BEHIND your character.

Teriz. Go educate yourself on camera angles. And again: on angles #2 and #3 you can see the tauren's horns, meaning you can see the pilot of the mech.

Since you’re claiming that something that occurs in the game isn’t lore

Game mechanics =/= lore. We have schools in Warcraft. Dalaran is a mage academy. The Church of the Light in Stormwind teaches priests, etc etc. We used to depend on trainers to get new abilities before, but now no longer, but that is a gameplay change made to smooth out the leveling experience. It was not a statement of lore.

So what are you saying then?

I said all our characters' abilities come from trainers, quests or books/items that teach you the ability.

That’s the point, no one knows for sure because it’s a video game, not a window into an actual world.

But you're stating as a fact that we "instinctively knew those starter abilities".

Says the guy applying real works logic to a game world.....

Because, shock of all shocks, even fictional words have internal logic, a.k.a., narrative logic. Meaning things don't happen "just because it's a fantasy world". There is logic and consistency even in fictional high fantasy worlds.

[Triceron]

Well no, because Greymayne is never shown fighting in his human form (like in HotS). He is only shown fighting in his beastial form with his teeth and claws. Unfortunately, Blizzard won’t give Worgen a werewolf form to fight in because that would break game balance and mess up their lore (basically they dislike fighting like beasts and want to retain their humanity). Instead Blizzard attempts to have their racials compensate.

Yeah, but racials don't compensate. If one were to really argue it, one could say that there's no class that properly represents Worgens hand-to-hand combat since both classes that use Fist weapons are inaccessible to them. Makes you wonder why the one race that is known for fighting with claws can't play as Monk or Shaman, eh?

Taliesin and Evitel bring up a pretty good concept with their Frenzy Worgen (Worgen Fury Warrior) Class Skin. Race-based transmog for unarmed attacks, icon swap for weapon strikes to slash and claw attack icons and names, done. That's the beauty of Class Skins, they can even be race specific.

You obviously didn’t understand what I was talking about.

Mostly because you shift goal posts to meet your criteria.

Your earlier argument for Gazlowe being a Tinker was that Blizzard screwed up WC3 Reforged, so Gazlowe in being a Tinker in that game was some sort of fluke. Seemingly ignoring all the other times Blizzard has connected Gazlowe to the Tinker concept, which you’re also implying are simply flukes, and not Blizzard purposely attaching Gazlowe to Tinkers.

They liked the Tinker concept but there's no well-established Goblin lore character for them to use. That's why they used Gazlowe, because he's already been established. Same reason why they use Falstad for the Gryphon Rider hero in Heroes of the Storm, even though his looks are completely based on Kurdran rather than his Day of the Dragon or WoW concept. Heroes of the Storm takes a lot of creative liberties that way. Even Stitches was chosen just because Pudge the Abomination is so well recognized in MOBAs since DOTA. There's practically been a Pudge-like hero in every one of em.

Characters like Gazlowe existed before Blizzard went ahead to create new heroes out of units, like Brightwing, Lunara and Murky. Had Gazlowe not been one of the original heroes they chose (even back when it was called Blizzdota) he might not have been a Tinker at all. It could have been some new creation like 'Gabbo Blastwix'

Reforged simply ignored precedents of lore and threw in the latest designs and incarnations of popular WC3 characters into WC3, even if it was anachronistic. I already pointed out Grom Hellscream. Other bits include Kael'thas with green eyes (he had white eyes in WC3, Green Eyes was a TBC lore addition), Dreadlords missing their tails, and Dagren the Orcslayer wielding Ashbringer (which was never his sword).

Reforged literally broke every lore rule in the book just to maintain a 'rule of cool'. It's simply not canon.

No, but do they really need to say it when they pretty much did it? Also why would every hero in WC3 have abilities either in name, function, or both in the WoW class lineup EXCEPT for the Tinker and Alchemist?

Been almost 20 years now dude. Dunno what to tell you.

I never said it was. I’m saying that spray guns are technological devices. In short, a spray gun ability lines up quite well with a technology-based class.

It's a pump and hose.



I wouldn't exactly call that rocket science.

[Teriz]

You're moving the goalposts. This was your original claim:

You explicitly claimed a WC3 hero is required for the creation of an expansion class, and that is the claim that I'm contesting.

Based on all of the other expansion classes, they are.

Now answer the question.

Are you on drugs or something? I said designed around. I didn't say "copy-paste". I mean, fuck. Check the Wikipedia entry for "sacred chinese animals", and you'll get a list that looks... very familiar: "Azure Dragon" (whose associated color is GREEN), "White Tiger", and "Vermilion Bird". There is a fourth one called "black turtle". It's not an ox, but it's still black. And 'ox' is one of the 28 mansions of the chinese constelations, and one of the 'mansions' of the Black Turtle. And as for the martial arts moves used for the monk, does this look familiar to you? And this?

And the point is that Blizzard created the August Celestials, and the Windwalker and the Mistwaljer specs specifically for WoW. They didn’t come from outside of Warcraft.

Even if I granted you that... that is not a blood ability. That is a frost and unholy talent. The blood spec doesn't have that.

And in WotLK it used Runic power and was a Blood ability;

https://wotlk.evowow.com/?spell=48743

Teriz. Go educate yourself on camera angles. And again: on angles #2 and #3 you can see the tauren's horns, meaning you can see the pilot of the mech.

Is the camera behind the character, in front of the character, to the side of the character, or above the character?

Game mechanics =/= lore.

Except you have no idea if it is lore or not. Again, we have multiple occurrences of characters learning abilities without going to a trainer even back in Vanilla, so the onus is on YOU to provide a statement from Blizzard saying that we learn ALL of our abilities from trainers.

But you're stating as a fact that we "instinctively knew those starter abilities".

Well it is a fact, since you start the game with those abilities and you have yet to meet your trainer (the lore LITERALLY states that). Again, the onus is on YOU to provide a source that overrides those facts.

Because, shock of all shocks, even fictional words have internal logic, a.k.a., narrative logic. Meaning things don't happen "just because it's a fantasy world". There is logic and consistency even in fictional high fantasy worlds.

Indeed, and since the internal logic of the game world revolves around magic, poop can appear in the sidewalk out of nowhere.

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Yeah, but racials don't compensate. If one were to really argue it, one could say that there's no class that properly represents Worgens hand-to-hand combat since both classes that use Fist weapons are inaccessible to them. Makes you wonder why the one race that is known for fighting with claws can't play as Monk or Shaman, eh?

You seem to miss the point that the lore behind the Worgen states why they wouldn’t use their teeth and claws. Genn does it because he’s losing his sanity to vengeance.

Mostly because you shift goal posts to meet your criteria.

They liked the Tinker concept but there's no well-established Goblin lore character for them to use. That's why they used Gazlowe, because he's already been established. Same reason why they use Falstad for the Gryphon Rider hero in Heroes of the Storm, even though his looks are completely based on Kurdran rather than his Day of the Dragon or WoW concept. Heroes of the Storm takes a lot of creative liberties that way. Even Stitches was chosen just because Pudge the Abomination is so well recognized in MOBAs since DOTA. There's practically been a Pudge-like hero in every one of em.

Characters like Gazlowe existed before Blizzard went ahead to create new heroes out of units, like Brightwing, Lunara and Murky. Had Gazlowe not been one of the original heroes they chose (even back when it was called Blizzdota) he might not have been a Tinker at all. It could have been some new creation like 'Gabbo Blastwix'

Reforged simply ignored precedents of lore and threw in the latest designs and incarnations of popular WC3 characters into WC3, even if it was anachronistic. I already pointed out Grom Hellscream. Other bits include Kael'thas with green eyes (he had white eyes in WC3, Green Eyes was a TBC lore addition), Akama looking like the Broken, Dreadlords missing their tails, and Dagren the Orcslayer wielding Ashbringer (which was never his sword).

Reforged literally broke every lore rule in the book just to maintain a 'rule of cool'. It's simply not canon.

And the placement of Gazlowe’s HotS abilities with Gazlowe in WoW?

Been almost 20 years now dude. Dunno what to tell you.

Then I’ll tell you; They’re set aside to form the foundation for the final class in the game. That’s really the only logical conclusion to draw from the evidence.

Yes, because it would line up well with any class. It's a healing spray. That's pretty damn generic as far as abilities go.

So a Restoration Shaman, Druid, Priest, or Monk could whip out a gun and spray everyone with a Healing agent?

That doesn’t make sense...

I wouldn't exactly call that rocket science.

It’s well beyond medieval science.

[Syegfryed]

Dude. Your only evidence that they're not the same is your desire that they shouldn't be the same. Meanwhile, what little evidence the game provides points more toward the idea that both are likely to be the same.

no, thats rly the opposite, you are projecting and theorizing that they are tinkers, with some bits of evidence, that is perfectly fine and one possibility, the problem is how you are trying to treat this possibility and theory as canon fact, and want to say they are with factually certain they are tinkers, when you don't have enough evidence of that, . stop

I didn't dismiss it. This was my original statement:

Again, your statement is just to deviate from the main point with a strawman tentative, you asked how they can be, i give you the example, now you want to twist to undermine it, that is your problem not mine

Check the Alliance Mechagon intro cinematic, and you'll see Tinkmaster Overspark calling his team "the best and the brightest tinkologists". You'll also see a human and a night elf in the group.

And you think a NPC saying his employes are tinkologits is a canon fact and proof that state they are tinkers? that,is your headcanon and projection thinking tinkers and tinkologists are the exact same thing in the wow universe, when there is nothing in the game lore stating that, and your base is a synonym by the wiki who also don't count then as tinkers, so your point in this case is invalid.

Again, if you want to try to say the wiki is incomplete because they do not cite every single goblin and gnome tinker when there is no reason to, because they already explained and cited that goblins and gnomes are tinkers you are twisting things to fit your narrative,(is like saying the race pages have to cite every single person of that race, or by example a warlock class section should cite every single warlock in existence of this game when they only cite the notable ones, and its an example, please try to not nitpick that) if they cited the demon race they would have cited those others if they indeed were tinkers, but they aren't and/or there is no enough evidence to proof they are and put then there.

[Triceron]

You seem to miss the point that the lore behind the Worgen states why they wouldn’t use their teeth and claws. Genn does it because he’s losing his sanity to vengeance.

Which means any Worgen can use teeth and claws, given they give into their vengeance. Makes sense to me considering all the chaos going on in the game.

And the placement of Gazlowe’s HotS abilities with Gazlowe in WoW?

What about them?

Then I’ll tell you; They’re set aside to form the foundation for the final class in the game. That’s really the only logical conclusion to draw from the evidence.

You've been saying that for 7 of those 20 years. Just saying.

If there were any good time to have them, it'd be now after a follow up to Mechagon. Yet we're going to Shadowlands. And when we come out it'd be hella underwhelming to jump into Tinkers of Tinklandia.

So a Restoration Shaman, Druid, Priest, or Monk could whip out a gun and spray everyone with a Healing agent?

Yes, given that they take up the Alchemy profession and Blizzard adds a Healing Spray item that they could use. The precedence is there considering we have Alchemy as a profession, which includes the use of Transmutes and Healing flasks and potions.

Like I said, any class can already use Alchemy. You don't need a profession to take up those themes. It's already there.

[Teriz]

Which means any Worgen can use teeth and claws, given they give into their vengeance. Makes sense to me considering all the chaos going on in the game.

Well they don’t. The lore behind playable Worgen is that they despise their beastial side, and try to maintain their humanity. They do that by using swords and guns instead of their teeth and claws. Genn is on something else entirely.

What about them?

Once the HotS abilities entered WoW, they became canon.

You've been saying that for 7 of those 20 years. Just saying.

Which is irrelevant to the facts.

If there were any good time to have them, it'd be now after a follow up to Mechagon.

Which is an opinion. We have no idea what Blizzard has lined up for future content.

Yes, given that they take up the Alchemy profession and Blizzard adds a Healing Spray item that they could use. The precedence is there considering we have Alchemy as a profession, which includes the use of Transmutes and Healing flasks and potions.

Except the profession would never get an AoE heal.

Like I said, any class can already use Alchemy. You don't need a profession to take up those themes. It's already there.

If any class can use Alchemy, where are the Alchemist’s hero’s abilities? Using your argument they should be available to any class

[Triceron]

Well they don’t. The lore behind playable Worgen is that they despise their beastial side, and try to maintain their humanity. They do that by using swords and guns instead of their teeth and claws. Genn is on something else entirely.

Yeah no. Nothing in the lore actually uses this to explain why they don't use claws in battle. Your explanation is as basic as saying Worgens shouldn't be fighting at all, because any combat brings out the beast in them. If they're already choosing to fight, then it doesn't matter if they use weapons or claws, they're already going bestial. We just never seen Genn in WoW use a weapon.

And people have been asking for visual Worgen claw attacks since they came out.

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...on%20to%20them.

Except the profession would never get an AoE heal.

But they could if Blizzard really wanted to add it.

If any class can use Alchemy, where are the Alchemist’s hero’s abilities? Using your argument they should be available to any class

Have you ever used Alchemy? You can literally turn iron into gold.

If you're talking about insta-killing a mob into gold through transmutation? Well, neither would a Tinker get that ability. It has nothing to do with technology.

[Teriz]

Yeah no. Nothing in the lore actually uses this to explain why they don't use claws in battle. Your explanation is as basic as saying Worgens shouldn't be fighting at all, because any combat brings out the beast in them. If they're already choosing to fight, then it doesn't matter if they use weapons or claws, they're already going bestial. We just never seen Genn in WoW use a weapon.

And people have been asking for visual Worgen claw attacks since they came out.

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...on%20to%20them.

So to you it doesn't make sense why someone trying to avoid being a savage would use a sword or a musket instead of their teeth and nails? Common sense states that there are more "civilized" ways to fight than that bite and claw someone. This concept even exists in real life. If you kill an enemy soldier and start tearing into their flesh with your teeth and claws, you're going to jail for war crimes.

But they could if Blizzard really wanted to add it.

But they wouldn't because that would cause a profession imbalance. It's the same reason engineering was heavily nerfed after WotLK.

[quote
Have you ever used Alchemy? You can literally turn iron into gold.[/quote]

Yes, but you can't turn an enemy into gold.

If you're talking about insta-killing a mob into gold through transmutation? Well, neither would a Tinker get that ability. It has nothing to do with technology.[/QUOTE]

Why wouldn't they? It could be an execute ability like Execute or the old version of Death Touch.

[Triceron]

So to you it doesn't make sense why someone trying to avoid being a savage would use a sword or a musket instead of their teeth and nails? Common sense states that there are more "civilized" ways to fight than that bite and claw someone. This concept even exists in real life. If you kill an enemy soldier and start tearing into their flesh with your teeth and claws, you're going to jail for war crimes.

Consider that in the lore, the Night Elves gave the Worgen refuge and created a safe space where they could free themselves from fear and stress. A place of calm where they could meditate and live their lives in peace.

And Sylvanas took that place away.

But they wouldn't because that would cause a profession imbalance. It's the same reason engineering was heavily nerfed after WotLK.

Not if they added abilities of equal power across the board, much like how they added passive and active abilities to Herbalism, Mining and Leatherworking.

Yes, but you can't turn an enemy into gold.

Neither can Tinkers.

Why wouldn't they? It could be an execute ability like Execute or the old version of Death Touch.

Because it has nothing to do with technology. Tinkers are inventors and geniuses who use technology, and this ability has nothing to do with technology.

[Teriz]

Consider that in the lore, the Night Elves gave the Worgen refuge and created a safe space where they could free themselves from fear and stress. A place of calm where they could meditate and live their lives in peace.

And Sylvanas took that place away.

That alongside the death of his son explains Genn's rage. However, he isn't indicative of the entire Worgen race, who despises their curse and seeks a way to cure themselves of it.

Not if they added abilities of equal power across the board, much like how they added passive and active abilities to Herbalism, Mining and Leatherworking.

Again, they wouldn't do that because it would cause a power creep within professions and force players to learn them. Blizzard wants professions to be optional.

Neither can Tinkers.

Which is a straw man. The argument was about the Alchemist hero's abilities.

Because it has nothing to do with technology.[/B] Tinkers are inventors and geniuses who use technology, and this ability has nothing to do with technology.

So you're saying that a Tinker creating a beam that transmutes targets wouldn't be an example of technology?

[Ielenia]

no, thats rly the opposite, you are projecting and theorizing that they are tinkers, with some bits of evidence, that is perfectly fine and one possibility, the problem is how you are trying to treat this possibility and theory as canon fact, and want to say they are with factually certain they are tinkers, when you don't have enough evidence of that, . stop

We have no reason to believe a "tinkologist" is different than a tinker, based on what we have seen them do. While you are claiming that they are not despite not having a single shred of evidence that they are other than a slightly different name.

Again, your statement is just to deviate from the main point with a strawman tentative, you asked how they can be, i give you the example, now you want to twist to undermine it, that is your problem not mine

It's not a strawman. It's an actual point. It's your subjective opinion that something "good" is not "excellent" or that something "excellent" is not "good". If two words a synonyms, that means they can generally be used interchangeably.

And you think a NPC saying his employes are tinkologits is a canon fact and proof that state they are tinkers?

They have been shown to be doing things that tinkers do: working with high-end technology. Again: every piece of evidence that exists in the game points to the idea that 'tinker' and 'tinkologist' are just different names to the same thing.

Again, if you want to try to say the wiki is incomplete because they do not cite every single goblin and gnome tinker when there is no reason to,

And human and night elf tinkers...

because they already explained and cited that goblins and gnomes are tinkers you are twisting things to fit your narrative,(is like saying the race pages have to cite every single person of that race, or by example a warlock class section should cite every single warlock in existence of this game when they only cite the notable ones, and its an example, please try to not nitpick that) if they cited the demon race they would have cited those others if they indeed were tinkers, but they aren't and/or there is no enough evidence to proof they are and put then there.

Except you're the one using that list to say "see? no human/night elf on that list!"

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Based on all of the other expansion classes, they are.

And I'll repeat what I said before:

False. At best, we have a correlation. This a big problem with your argument, Teriz. You're taking a correlation and implying causation with no way of proving such.

And your question is a complete red-herring that does not prove your original claim in any way, shape or form even if answered in the positive.

And the point is that Blizzard created the August Celestials, and the Windwalker and the Mistwaljer specs specifically for WoW. They didn’t come from outside of Warcraft.

Are you for real? I just proved that they were.

And in WotLK it used Runic power and was a Blood ability;

https://wotlk.evowow.com/?spell=48743

Thank you. You did exactly what I expected you to do: you completely argued yourself into a corner, because now you're holding two diametrically opposing views. So, Teriz, which is it? Does the way things used to be in the past matter and are still 'canon' today... or do they not? Because Death Pact is not a blood ability today, just like today we don't need trainers to learn new abilities.

Is the camera behind the character, in front of the character, to the side of the character, or above the character?

I think it's beyond obvious, to anyone with more than two brain cells, that the camera is above the character.

Except you have no idea if it is lore or not. Again, we have multiple occurrences of characters learning abilities without going to a trainer even back in Vanilla, so the onus is on YOU to provide a statement from Blizzard saying that we learn ALL of our abilities from trainers.

Gameplay is not lore. That is a fact. And every single occurrence of characters learning abilities without going to a trainer are simply gameplay concessions to smooth out gameplay. Not to mention there isn't a single lore mention about characters "learning things" out of nowhere.

Well it is a fact,

No. No, it's not. Again: game mechanics are not lore. For example: assuming a blood elf priest character, and a very low-ball estimate that 1 in-game iron bar = 1 kg, it means a full stack of 200 means 200 kg. That means, having the biggest bags in the game, all completely full of full stacks of iron bars, our character would be carrying 30.800 kilos, or little over 30 tons. Carrying 30 tons of weight... effortlessly. Because our character can still run non-stop from Silvermoon to Booty Bay without getting tired. Because our character can swim without being stuck to the bottom of the lake/river/ocean. And yet our blood elf priest is somehow physically unable wear plate armor? Or wield a shield?

Not to mention: shoddy rope-and-wooden-board bridges can somehow withstand 30 tons of weight... applied in a single step. All thanks to gameplay. But would you say that is "lore" too?

Indeed, and since the internal logic of the game world revolves around magic, poop can appear in the sidewalk out of nowhere.

No. No, it doesn't. Because the internal logic of the game, even revolving around magic, has not shown that things can "magically appear out of nowhere" without someone making it so. And characters don't spontaneously "know" stuff.