Shadowlands DPS rankings

[ClassicPeon]

I strongly doubt that soulbinds will skew the picture - because they aren't class specific.
Legendaries are class specific, but i'll doubt that one dps spec will suddenly jump into top tier because of one.

If so, it'll be nerfed because it vastly outperforms any other legendary.

In my opinion, you're the moron for believing those things make an actual difference on the ranking.

I'm with the other guy on this. Legendaries and soulbinds have different effects on different classes just like borrowed power always does.

Its gonna be big for some specs.

- - - Updated - - -

Seeing Ret near the bottom. Yep, seems about accurate. Not sure about the other classes tho.

Seems pretty fair with all the support toolkit stuff they are getting.

[Thorcall]

If Conduits disappear, Soulbinds would still be there and its effect are still generalized ones, not class specific ones.
So the chances of them actually compensating the weakness of a spec in terms of dps isn't that huge, because everyone has access to the same Soulbinds.

Do you realise that even something that everyone can have could benefit more to one spec? Fire mage is a very good exemple, it became good in ep because two thing, essences (lucid dream) and mecagon wrist. If you want number, check here : https://bloodmallet.com/index.html#m..._view=essences . With this graph, lucid dream (the best essence) give a fire mage 13K increase dps. If you look another classe, fury warrior here : https://bloodmallet.com/index.html#w..._view=essences , not the same best but the best essence give only 7K3. Here assa rogue https://bloodmallet.com/index.html#r..._view=essences 7K6. Here its totally a power available to every spec, but some benefit way more than others.

You have the same thing with covenant, right now one of the fairy soulbind give 10% mastery decreasing over time (you have the buff 100% of the time, just not the same value, the median change throught build so lets just tell 10% for simplicity). With my balance drood, 10% mastery give me almost 20% more dps during cd, and almost 10% off. With my dh, 10% mastery is a 5% more damage overhall. Its just one trait of one soulbind, but there is other that have similar effect. Be sure conduits and legendary are not gonna be balanced between all specs, some specs are gonna get way more power than others with them and its fine. What they need to balance is the final result, not the base dps before everything else. Its even worse with this graph, some of the borrowed power from bfa is still active in this logs, you cannot use azerite armor but trinkets, enchants, mechagon items ect work.

[Kralljin]

Without even implementing soulbinds/conduits/legendaries, it's already changed to this.

Isn't your point that this chart should change because of those systems?
So how does this prove your point when those things aren't even in?

You can't proof that somthing changes things when that very thing isn't even in the game.
Those rankings changed because of virtually anything else than those systems.

Yet a non-class specific corruption (Masterful) caused a huge swing in damage for a single spec?

Also ignoring that the powerlevel of corruption is way off.
Which pointed out earlier, but i guess that's something you ignore.

You argue based on your opinion. You don't source anything, you don't give any facts or examples.

Should we go over the specs that usually are trash at the start of expansion and aren't being fixed until a later patch, despite those systems?

There wasn't any magical Azerite trait or Legendary that "fixed" Feral or Elemental in Legion or BfA when those expansions launched.

What they need to balance is the final result, not the base dps before everything else.

I fundamentally disagree on that count, it just further reinforces the over reliance on those system for the classes itself and often removes any customization those systems are supposed to offer.
That's the crucial flaw in using those systems as tuning knob, they're intended to be used for customization but once you use them to tune classes, you'd have to virtually also re balance any other option in order to keep it as a choice.

[Jester Joe]

Isn't your point that this chart should change because of those systems?
So how does this prove your point when those things aren't even in?

I strongly doubt that soulbinds will skew the picture - because they aren't class specific.
Legendaries are class specific, but i'll doubt that one dps spec will suddenly jump into top tier because of one.

If so, it'll be nerfed because it vastly outperforms any other legendary.

In my opinion, you're the moron for believing those things make an actual difference on the ranking.

Nothing changed, and yet there was already a difference.

But you think something changing will result in no change in ranking.

You're trying to argue a circle is a square. I am not entertaining anymore of your opinion arguing, since you are still unable to actually prove your point with supporting evidence while any evidence given to you is just dismissed.

[Kralljin]

Nothing changed, and yet there was already a difference.

Different build with class tuning, different bosses, those things changed.

The things we're discussing? Not even there.

[Jester Joe]

Different build with class tuning, different bosses, those things changed.

The things we're discussing? Not even there.

You realize this thread was posted yesterday morning, and the last build was...the 5th, according to MMOC.

The information was different yesterday morning, was changed midday.

The screenshot I posted was from late on the 11th.

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ta-Build-35432

Updating, found one on Wowhead from 3 days ago, which still makes it older than this thread.

https://www.wowhead.com/news=317395/...caling-changes

So either way...

[Kralljin]

The information was different yesterday morning, was changed midday.

There was a raid testing yesterday...so...

[Jester Joe]

There was a raid testing yesterday...so...

Again you cut almost everything out to suit your needs.

There was testing Thursday too. Nothing changed between Thursday and Friday in terms of the classes themselves.

Yet the rankings changed. Stop manipulating the situation to try to fit your argument.

[Wuusah]

It actually looks pretty good for a “no balance tuning yet“ phase. If they nerfed the top 5 and buffed the bottom 5, the balance would be decent. Most specs are in the same ballpark already

[Kralljin]

There was testing Thursday too. Nothing changed between Thursday and Friday in terms of the classes themselves.

Yes, was it updated?
Perhaps nothing changed...because nothing changed?

And then raidtesting in Friday happened (a Boss that was kinda easy to abuse in terms of damage i might add) and things changed.

Is this the hill you want to die on?
That this ranking changes despite the elements we're arguing aren't even in?

[Jester Joe]

Yes, was it updated?
Perhaps nothing changed...because nothing changed?

And then raidtesting in Friday happened (a Boss that was kinda easy to abuse in terms of damage i might add) and things changed.

Is this the hill you want to die on?
That this ranking changes despite the elements we're arguing aren't even in?

This is some bizarre form of gaslighting you got going on when it's easy to re-read posts.

Last build was the 11th in general. Both Wowhead and MMOC actually confirm this.

The raid testing started on Thursday. This thread was posted yesterday, after the first raid test.

After absolutely no class changes or builds

*cough*

Different build with class tuning

The rankings changed.

I'm really not sure how you're not following this. You literally go from "it was a different build" to "nothing changed!" in a matter of 3 posts.

[Kralljin]

I'm really not sure how you're not following this. You literally go from "it was a different build" to "nothing changed!" in a matter of 3 posts.

Was actually more meant as "possible explanations" rather than "this is what happened".
I think entire argument built on "this data changed, you're wrong" is pretty faulty to begin with, because in both cases the point we're arguing about aren't in.

If your point is "look, the data changed!", then yes, something changed, congratulations, point stands that it hasn't to do with anything at the topic at hand.

[Jester Joe]

Was actually more meant as "possible explanations" rather than "this is what happened".
I think entire argument built on "this data changed, you're wrong" is pretty faulty to begin with, because in both cases the point we're arguing about aren't in.

If your point is "look, the data changed!", then yes, something changed, congratulations, point stands that it hasn't to do with anything at the topic at hand.

As I said, not really a debate to argue with opinion rather than facts.

And you seem to have taken my 3 points to prove my overall point as something to be debated individually, rather than realize they're reinforcing each other.

But anyway, we have a case of
1) The rankings already changing while missing the system.
2) Clear cases of the system causing massive power swings for certain classes

and here comes 3.
A rental system equivalent to conduits/soulbinds causing a change in rankings from traits.

The reason I'm pointing out the rankings have already changed without any interference is to show that they're already faulty to begin with. Your claim that soulbinds won't affect it is just strange considering they're already being affected by nothing happening but playing more.

This whole thing just comes off as you arguing how you want the game to work when it doesn't. Like you said, you'd rather they balance the class first-

I fundamentally disagree on that count, it just further reinforces the over reliance on those system for the classes itself and often removes any customization those systems are supposed to offer.
That's the crucial flaw in using those systems as tuning knob, they're intended to be used for customization but once you use them to tune classes, you'd have to virtually also re balance any other option in order to keep it as a choice.

But it isn't how WoW works. They used the rental system as tuning knobs, which again I point to the balance changes to azerite traits instead of the class itself.

On top of that, despite your mocking of the mention of corruption, you dodged the reason it was brought up for point 2. It doesn't matter how imbalanced corruption was overall, it's the fact that it was a system that every class could use. After all, if everyone is broken, no one is broken.

But that isn't what happened. Instead some specs (fire) profited far far more than others. Just like the basic Soulbind traits will be usable for all classes, that doesn't change that some will benefit far more than others from specific ones.

[Kralljin]

As I said, not really a debate to argue with opinion rather than facts.

Hasn't much to do with the post you're replying to.

The reason I'm pointing out the rankings have already changed without any interference is to show that they're already faulty to begin with.

Never said they were accurate, if you believe however that a class that is bad without any of those burrowed power systems will suddenly become good, you're setting yourself up for disappointment.

The most amusing thing about those numbers is that the usual suspects sit at the top and bottom.

But it isn't how WoW works. They used the rental system as tuning knobs, which again I point to the balance changes to azerite traits instead of the class itself.

Which brought down those Systems, if you use them to balance classes, you remove customization options as you need to select the "good one".
Not to mention of all its negative impacts whenever Blizzard started to buff and nerf those traits.

After all, if everyone is broken, no one is broken.

Coming to that conclusion from the corruption system ignores the greater picture, looking at the RNG procs and that some guilds used Tanks as DPS because they could wear a ton of Corruption.
And if you also take PvP into account, then only contrarian will actually defend this system.

The Corruption was one big failure, Blizzard even admitted that the game is pretty broken due to that.

So yeah, "no one is broken" - it just broke the game (by Blizzards own admission).

But that isn't what happened. Instead some specs (fire) profited far far more than others.

While other specs such as Enhancement, Elemental, Balance, Feral, virtually any rogue spec also got lost.

You know what?
I'll concede, you're right, but the Corruption system was a system that made the game even less balanced (which a "tuning knob" is supposed to prevent), because the gap between the top and low end grew even bigger.

And from the creators of Corruption, we'll now get those new and shiny systems, alongside the usual massive imbalances that accompany every x.0 Patch.
I'm sure it will work out just well.

[MrLachyG]

Again you cut almost everything out to suit your needs.

There was testing Thursday too. Nothing changed between Thursday and Friday in terms of the classes themselves.

Yet the rankings changed. Stop manipulating the situation to try to fit your argument.

so I got a question: if you know this thread is bullshit then why, as a moderator, don't you just shut this shit down.

[Minikin]

you need a barrel of salt, not a grain of salt to look at this

Nope! Gonna start my brigading now! The sky is fallinnnnnggggg

/S

Side note: I don't play an enhance shaman in raids but I do have a quiet hope that before I quit this game for good I see them at the top someday.

Edit: nvm I'm late to the party. Full out protests already happening /facepalm

[agentsi]

Why even make bait threads.... These are changing almost weekly.

No one really gives a shit what the DPS rankings are RIGHT NOW, considering the game isn't due out for 4-5 months, and the first raid won't be for another month or two after that. Meaning, 6 months for this shit to work itself out. But Nah, let me try to piss people off for no reason because I'm a fucking douchebag.

Got it.

[Ihazpaws]

Even tho there is no fine tuning yet, it is so boring to see same classes dominating every time...

[Ulfric Trumpcloak]

Expected a bunch of comments claiming "it's still beta", "not balanced yet", etc. When will you people learn? How many botched launches do you need?

Anyways, guess I'm going back to my og class. I haven't played lock since MoP.

[dexx]

Why even make bait threads.... These are changing almost weekly.
Meaning, 6 months for this shit to work itself out.

People always say that every expansion. But, more often than not, the class weaknesses you see in beta will be there at launch. If you're lucky, they may be addressed by the first or second major patch.

A better discussion may be - which dps class plays the smoothest? With mechanics which make the most sense? As opposed to - which classes feel clunky and awkward, with poor/no synergy?