Built in Raider IO, plz Blizz.

[ClassicPeon]

For me personally, it's those people who only choose those who grossly outgear a key. While it's their right (within the current system), it still does not mean they're not one of "those people". You know how you can legally stand on a sidewalk in front of someone's house and video record their kids playing in the lawn? Or how you can walk around in public areas covered in assault rifles? Perfectly legal to do and you have the right to do it. But you know exactly why you're doing just that.

I liked the CM mode ways of Mists. The bar was set to realistic levels for average players. It was too easy and wasn't to a point where many would go "yeah, will never happen for me".

But thats not a Raider IO problem. Its not a problem that came with Rio or will go away with Rio. Its a problem(if it even is one) with the community.

So your biggest gripe with RIO isnt a RIO centric problem. Could you mention another?

[Necromantic]

But thats not a Raider IO problem. Its not a problem that came with Rio or will go away with Rio. Its a problem(if it even is one) with the community.

So your biggest gripe with RIO isnt a RIO centric problem. Could you mention another?

I've already been over this (and so have others). Just look up on this very page. I even stated that it wasn't the addon. The addon just exacerbates it. Guns are not a problem. Killers are a problem. Put a gun in a killer's hands and you have a very big problem.

What does grossly outgearing a key have to do with the addon? If anything r.io is significantly better than prior methods of judging people.(gearscore) it's merely an experience meter. If I ever do an alt run(alts in BFA LOLOLOLOL) I'll choose the guy with lower gear but a higher r.io every single time. If anything r.io helps people with more experience but less gear get in.

I've read all the stories on here, the official forums and reddit of people who were 450ish and were denied into low key groups because they were not decked in M15 gear. The addon gives you that information, which "those people" utilize in that fashion. Whether they're rightfully allowed to do that, it does not dismiss in any way that they're "those people."

And you are not wrong, it is an experience meter, but there is no denying that most people are not good at metrics.

[ClassicPeon]

I've already been over this (and so have others). Just look up on this very page. I even stated that it wasn't the addon. The addon just exacerbates it.



I've read all the stories on here, the official forums and reddit of people who were 450ish and were denied into low key groups because they were not decked in M15 gear. The addon gives you that information, which "those people" utilize in that fashion. Whether they're rightfully allowed to do that, it does not dismiss in any way that they're "those people."

And you are not wrong, it is an experience meter, but there is no denying that most people are not good at metrics.

And i disagree. You have to be specific if you have literally any other point because i havent seen it.

The addon doesnt exacerbate the problem. THe problem would be even worse without it becasue you can be damn sure there would be arbituary odd requirements people would have.

Imagine, if you will, people wanting you to link the all 15's on time just to do a 15. That would probably not be unthinkable.

[Lefrog]

The problem with people saying it provides more information is that it still only provides a very limited amount with which to judge a player (same problem with ilvl).

Things such as carries, buying runs, group comp, affix, corruptions, average dps are largely ignored in favor of the simplicity of a number.

There should be a difference in ranking between a 50k dps who has all +15 on an easy week, and a 100k dps who has all +15 on a hard week. There should also be a difference in ranking between someone who bought all their +15s and contributed very little as opposed to someone who just have maybe 4-5 of the BiS dungeons done but contributes the most out of any group member.

In the absence of a more detailed system, partial information passes up a lot of good players for mediocre players...to the detriment of all.

[Necromantic]

And i disagree. You have to be specific if you have literally any other point because i havent seen it.

The addon doesnt exacerbate the problem. THe problem would be even worse without it becasue you can be damn sure there would be arbituary odd requirements people would have.

Imagine, if you will, people wanting you to link the all 15's on time just to do a 15. That would probably not be unthinkable.

I use the addon all the time and it greatly exacerbates the problem. If you don't see it nor understand, I'm afraid that's on you, my friend.

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I feel like the disconnect here is someone like ClassicPeon or I are talking about keys that are well above 15 and Necro may be talking about sub 10 keys. Which is like he said, not something that is a side-effect of r.io becoming a thing. Taking the most overgeared people has been a pugging staple since they added the group finder.

I never mentioned wanting to DO high keys. I'm talking about all those people who're just trying to get their foot in the door and can't because they're not already decked in M15 gear to enter Joe Blow's 2 key, for one example.

Joe Blow is well within his rights but he's still "one of those people."

[ClassicPeon]

I use the addon all the time and it greatly exacerbates the problem. If you don't see it nor understand, I'm afraid that's on you, my friend.

- - - Updated - - -



I never mentioned wanting to DO high keys. I'm talking about all those people who're just trying to get their foot in the door and can't because they're not already decked in M15 gear to enter Joe Blow's 2 key, for one example.

Joe Blow is well within his rights but he's still "one of those people."

Perhaps you could try and argue your problem instead of telling people its their problem that we cant read your mind.
Perhaps the real problem is that you cant argue it ?

Edit:

The 2nd part. I'm not as hardcore as that. I've only recently finnished the 15's on time achievement as i havent played much in bfa. But let me say this. I started from square 0 with a brand new character and pugged my way up to doing 15's in a month. Thats from someone who almost havent even done the dungeons before. I had to learnm the dungons and earlier this year i created a thread on how daunting it was to tank 10+ dungeons as a new tank because of awakening.

During that journey i took a DK tank and a demon hunter through the hazzle and i rarely ever met a group who where completely out of bounds in what they expected

[Necromantic]

Perhaps you could try and argue your problem instead of telling people its their problem that we cant read your mind.
Perhaps the real problem is that you cant argue it ?

I'm not complaining that you can't read my mind. I'm arguing the point very well. I think you do understand the point but just do not agree, which is perfectly fine. We can still be friends.

I mean. Before r.io every pug worth a shit would go through your armory and logs. If r.io didn't exist I feel like more people would be excluded. It would be a bit harder to gauge a player's skill for M+ without it.

While I remember a few people doing that, I do remember that people were often laughed at for going into someone's armory before inviting them to a heroic.

Then again, times do change.

[Reivur]

But thats not a Raider IO problem. Its not a problem that came with Rio or will go away with Rio. Its a problem(if it even is one) with the community.

So your biggest gripe with RIO isnt a RIO centric problem. Could you mention another?

Ease of access to metrics most people don't understand does socially create problems. If the community is going to become a hellscape because they generally can't use the tool appropriately its better to seal it shut or let it stay niche. I'd prefer people have their options so I'd say 'stay niche', because realistically if that option did get shut they'd just move on to a new method of tracking until it also got burned to the ground. Either way "Gearscore" and item level that followed did the same thing. You'd have maybe a third of the end game community ask for a gearscore # or you weren't invited, and the rest couldn't be bothered to install the mod or would be lazy and get someone else to say their score.

Then we get ilvl to phase out gearscore, which to this day is still a crude method of reading power; admittedly because of derpy stuff like Azerite, but things that aren't measured such as Trinkets not standing on even footing would cause exceptions still. (Let alone Essences which aren't even expressed in the # it spits out.) Hell, see some melee still for quite awhile wanting that gimmick trinket from Ashvane. The problem with metrics is most people will look at numbers and not understand 'why' those numbers are the way they are. And if they don't understand why it makes things shittier.

There's a reason dps meters still aren't baked directly into the UI despite battlegrounds and character data/achievements making it more than apparent that its tracked baseline. It would be misused by the general populace (it already is). I could ask half of the people who have a dps meter installed (which is a great portion of anyone who hits level cap admittedly) how they died to something and they'd still be unable to tell me even though the info is literally three clicks away. People's analysis's on shit is often snappy and wrong even when there's literally line for line telling you what something could be.

As a personal aside though I think raider.io is a weird gimmick anyway. It looks like a great way to meet people on the super tryhard 'lets score the best' keys but the fact that there are 'push weeks' one week and 'that week sucks' others show that its already a flawed concept. Lets get that 23-25 score on a week that we acknowledge is literally easier! This score totally makes sense and is representative of how difficult that key was. And yeah I'm aware it archives/writes down the affix's for that week; still doesn't change that push weeks are a thing specifically for 'score'.

[ClassicPeon]

I'm not complaining that you can't read my mind. I'm arguing the point very well. I think you do understand the point but just do not agree, which is perfectly fine. We can still be friends.



While I remember a few people doing that, I do remember that people were often laughed at for going into someone's armory before inviting them to a heroic.

Then again, times do change.

I disagree. I havent seen you argue how R.IO makes the problem worse. I've argued how i think it makes the problem LESS. But i havent seen a single argument the other way around.

[Necromantic]

My friend, I've already stated that people are just not good at reading metrics. In addition, when people only want to take people who grossly outgear content, they now have the tool to highlight those people.

The addon wasn't trying to be bad, the person using it was.

Again, guns are not bad. Killers are bad. Put a gun in a killer's hand, you have a very big problem.

[Necromantic]

Ease of access to metrics most people don't understand does socially create problems. If the community is going to become a hellscape because they generally can't use the tool appropriately its better to seal it shut or let it stay niche. I'd prefer people have their options so I'd say 'stay niche', because realistically if that option did get shut they'd just move on to a new method of tracking until it also got burned to the ground. Either way "Gearscore" and item level that followed did the same thing. You'd have maybe a third of the end game community ask for a gearscore # or you weren't invited, and the rest couldn't be bothered to install the mod or would be lazy and get someone else to say their score.

Then we get ilvl to phase out gearscore, which to this day is still a crude method of reading power; admittedly because of derpy stuff like Azerite, but things that aren't measured such as Trinkets not standing on even footing would cause exceptions still. (Let alone Essences which aren't even expressed in the # it spits out.) Hell, see some melee still for quite awhile wanting that gimmick trinket from Ashvane. The problem with metrics is most people will look at numbers and not understand 'why' those numbers are the way they are. And if they don't understand why it makes things shittier.

There's a reason dps meters still aren't baked directly into the UI despite battlegrounds and character data/achievements making it more than apparent that its tracked baseline. It would be misused by the general populace (it already is). I could ask half of the people who have a dps meter installed (which is a great portion of anyone who hits level cap admittedly) how they died to something and they'd still be unable to tell me even though the info is literally three clicks away. People's analysis's on shit is often snappy and wrong even when there's literally line for line telling you what something could be.

As a personal aside though I think raider.io is a weird gimmick anyway. It looks like a great way to meet people on the super tryhard 'lets score the best' keys but the fact that there are 'push weeks' one week and 'that week sucks' others show that its already a flawed concept. Lets get that 23-25 score on a week that we acknowledge is literally easier! This score totally makes sense and is representative of how difficult that key was. And yeah I'm aware it archives/writes down the affix's for that week; still doesn't change that push weeks are a thing specifically for 'score'.

This guy sees it the same.

The DPS meters are a great comparison. Back in the day, people would spam them and those who use it would defend it to the bone with "all it does is shows you how well you did." Which that may be the case, but it was more often than not, used to brag/shame people. That's not the fault of the meter. The guy who made the meter had the best intentions however, the road to hell is paved with the best intentions.

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The people that want to get their foot in the door have to do the same thing the rest of us did. I didn't play at all during EP and came back for 8.3(L O L) I had to push my own keys up even if the dungeon didn't give me loot I wanted. It's a great way to make friends too.

Not every server's community is the same and as welcome to newcomers as some other servers are. My Horde server is very welcome and slightly easy-ish to make friends but my Alliance server? Lol you can forget it.

Yes, they can push their own keys but I've seen people and read posts of people who get no takers for their keys, even on desired jobs, which sucks and I feel bad for them.

[ClassicPeon]

Ease of access to metrics most people don't understand does socially create problems. If the community is going to become a hellscape because they generally can't use the tool appropriately its better to seal it shut or let it stay niche. I'd prefer people have their options so I'd say 'stay niche', because realistically if that option did get shut they'd just move on to a new method of tracking until it also got burned to the ground. Either way "Gearscore" and item level that followed did the same thing. You'd have maybe a third of the end game community ask for a gearscore # or you weren't invited, and the rest couldn't be bothered to install the mod or would be lazy and get someone else to say their score.

Then we get ilvl to phase out gearscore, which to this day is still a crude method of reading power; admittedly because of derpy stuff like Azerite, but things that aren't measured such as Trinkets not standing on even footing would cause exceptions still. (Let alone Essences which aren't even expressed in the # it spits out.) Hell, see some melee still for quite awhile wanting that gimmick trinket from Ashvane. The problem with metrics is most people will look at numbers and not understand 'why' those numbers are the way they are. And if they don't understand why it makes things shittier.

There's a reason dps meters still aren't baked directly into the UI despite battlegrounds and character data/achievements making it more than apparent that its tracked baseline. It would be misused by the general populace (it already is). I could ask half of the people who have a dps meter installed (which is a great portion of anyone who hits level cap admittedly) how they died to something and they'd still be unable to tell me even though the info is literally three clicks away. People's analysis's on shit is often snappy and wrong even when there's literally line for line telling you what something could be.

As a personal aside though I think raider.io is a weird gimmick anyway. It looks like a great way to meet people on the super tryhard 'lets score the best' keys but the fact that there are 'push weeks' one week and 'that week sucks' others show that its already a flawed concept. Lets get that 23-25 score on a week that we acknowledge is literally easier! This score totally makes sense and is representative of how difficult that key was. And yeah I'm aware it archives/writes down the affix's for that week; still doesn't change that push weeks are a thing specifically for 'score'.

1.
You are jumping to a lot of conclusions here.
a. If its not raider.IO its something else. If they have problems understanding the simple concept that RIO represents they will ahve problems understanding anything else aswell.
b. The community isnt going to become a hellscape.
c. Implementing RIO would not be 1:1. The number RIO gives is literally just a better version of ilvl. Used right or wrong its still more accurate then ilvl.

2.
Conclusion here seems to be: Ilvl is a bad metric. Which i agree with

3.
DPS meters at this point is used by virtually everyone. It would literally not make a difference if they baked it into the game. It could be a toggle on/off option. I dont overly care for this because it would make no difference.

4.
Bad and good weeks are equal for bad and good players. Good players will go higher on push weeks and so will worse players. Meaning worse players will still play with worse players.


RIO made doing 15+ keys way easier for me because it gave me a metric of meassurings peoples experience.
Without that i and everyone else had to default to worse options - and the people misusing RIO would misuse those other options leaving coming out better on the other side, but only people coming out worse.


Blizzard could create a better and more see through system then RIO could aswell as live update it.

- - - Updated - - -

Not every server's community is the same and as welcome to newcomers as some other servers are. My Horde server is very welcome and slightly easy-ish to make friends but my Alliance server? Lol you can forget it.

Yes, they can push their own keys but I've seen people and read posts of people who get no takers for their keys, even on desired jobs, which sucks and I feel bad for them.

If noone joined his key there is probabbly a good reason for that. It does require some effort to get your score up. Its a grind. But hey its an mmo so its fitting.-

[Necromantic]

If noone joined his key there is probabbly a good reason for that. It does require some effort to get your score up. Its a grind. But hey its an mmo so its fitting.-

I use the addon, I saw no reason not to other than (as mentioned), hes not grossly overgeared for the content. I remember when I was 440 (less than him) and I could bum rush through 0s and 2s.

Oh well, not everyone is the same but we all have our views on what should change. Whether it happens or not is yet to be seen.

[Reivur]

1.
You are jumping to a lot of conclusions here.
a. If its not raider.IO its something else. If they have problems understanding the simple concept that RIO represents they will ahve problems understanding anything else aswell.
b. The community isnt going to become a hellscape.
c. Implementing RIO would not be 1:1. The number RIO gives is literally just a better version of ilvl. Used right or wrong its still more accurate then ilvl.

2.
Conclusion here seems to be: Ilvl is a bad metric. Which i agree with

3.
DPS meters at this point is used by virtually everyone. It would literally not make a difference if they baked it into the game. It could be a toggle on/off option. I dont overly care for this because it would make no difference.

4.
Bad and good weeks are equal for bad and good players. Good players will go higher on push weeks and so will worse players. Meaning worse players will still play with worse players.


RIO made doing 15+ keys way easier for me because it gave me a metric of meassurings peoples experience.
Without that i and everyone else had to default to worse options - and the people misusing RIO would misuse those other options leaving coming out better on the other side, but only people coming out worse.


Blizzard could create a better and more see through system then RIO could aswell as live update it.

- - - Updated - - -



If noone joined his key there is probabbly a good reason for that. It does require some effort to get your score up. Its a grind. But hey its an mmo so its fitting.-

1.
Agreed. There's a reason I mentioned Parsers and Gearscore; any tool used to survey people's information to get an idea of their performance or lack thereof is subject to abuse. I'll just have to agree to disagree about the community not becoming a potential hellscape though. Throughout the years each time Blizzard has appeased everyone with quality of life be it information or game mechanics such as sharding for infrastructure, misinformation or abuse of the intent has followed. To claim otherwise makes me want to know what safe haven of a server you've found so I can chill there and relax.

Also RIO as a score completely ignores the context of how 'undesired' classes got their score. Often these specs aren't even necessarily incapable of competing so much as you needing to build around them which ends up being unlikely vs. just stacking the meta classes. And once again that's something subject to knowing why the numbers read a way rather than the number telling you why its that way.

2.
Yeah ilvl is trash. Good intent though in terms of guiding people on where to seek power/content at certain stages of their character's development. But also misused drastically by the community on the regular. I'm sure you can log on and find at least five groups or more misusing it by saying you need to be higher ilvl than the drops the content gives to be able to join. Its a common practice.

3.
I have no problems with parsers. But I also acknowledge most people can't read them. Like r.io or any tool, its only as useful as the person capable of using the tool. And a lot of people read it hilariously wrong. If BFA can be thanked for anything its that a lot of people are so obsessed with how unfair procs feel at the moment that they're reading parsers closer and learning them better when they try to find out what their non-proc damage is to compare to their peers. So that's a nice accident I guess.

4.
My criticism of 'push weeks' is that its just another example of people using a tool incorrectly. While r.io is great for finding groups and competing with peers and sure the score is 'fun', the score is about as truthful and accurate as ilvl. The weeks are unequal by the very acknowledgment that push weeks exist and as such it jumbles and distorts the value behind the scores, which makes them shitty to use as metrics. Which makes it about as crude as ilvl in "Big number is big". It also distorts the value of some players too if they don't do an 'all around the world' scoring for all the keys and their average gets tanked artificially because oh no they didn't do Freehold x yet because they were trying to farm rings from Mechagone, oh well, their number is smaller than this other guy's.

[Necromantic]

As mentioned, the addon itself is not the problem. My belief (and I know I'm not alone) is that it just exacerbates it. I'm just not afraid to state it on a forum. Reddit and the official forums, you get bombarded with insults from people incapable of having a conversation with somebody who has a different opinion (I feel sorry for them when they get out in the real world). At least on here, you have some people, such as yourself who can compose themselves and have a conversation.

Maybe it's the setting. True story, I found out a guy I work with plays too. I asked him in an email his opinion on it and he replied similar to those on the official forums. But when I finally talked to him in person, his tone changed like day/night.

[ClassicPeon]

1.
Agreed. There's a reason I mentioned Parsers and Gearscore; any tool used to survey people's information to get an idea of their performance or lack thereof is subject to abuse. I'll just have to agree to disagree about the community not becoming a potential hellscape though. Throughout the years each time Blizzard has appeased everyone with quality of life be it information or game mechanics such as sharding for infrastructure, misinformation or abuse of the intent has followed. To claim otherwise makes me want to know what safe haven of a server you've found so I can chill there and relax.

Also RIO as a score completely ignores the context of how 'undesired' classes got their score. Often these specs aren't even necessarily incapable of competing so much as you needing to build around them which ends up being unlikely vs. just stacking the meta classes. And once again that's something subject to knowing why the numbers read a way rather than the number telling you why its that way.

2.
Yeah ilvl is trash. Good intent though in terms of guiding people on where to seek power/content at certain stages of their character's development. But also misused drastically by the community on the regular. I'm sure you can log on and find at least five groups or more misusing it by saying you need to be higher ilvl than the drops the content gives to be able to join. Its a common practice.

3.
I have no problems with parsers. But I also acknowledge most people can't read them. Like r.io or any tool, its only as useful as the person capable of using the tool. And a lot of people read it hilariously wrong. If BFA can be thanked for anything its that a lot of people are so obsessed with how unfair procs feel at the moment that they're reading parsers closer and learning them better when they try to find out what their non-proc damage is to compare to their peers. So that's a nice accident I guess.

4.
My criticism of 'push weeks' is that its just another example of people using a tool incorrectly. While r.io is great for finding groups and competing with peers and sure the score is 'fun', the score is about as truthful and accurate as ilvl. The weeks are unequal by the very acknowledgment that push weeks exist and as such it jumbles and distorts the value behind the scores, which makes them shitty to use as metrics. Which makes it about as crude as ilvl in "Big number is big". It also distorts the value of some players too if they don't do an 'all around the world' scoring for all the keys and their average gets tanked artificially because oh no they didn't do Freehold x yet because they were trying to farm rings from Mechagone, oh well, their number is smaller than this other guy's.

By and large i agree with everything you say.

I have one thing to add though. The whole undesired dps specs thing(and to a lesser extent tanks/healers). Its a tuning issue right. I mean. The issue would be there with or without RIO. Its not like it takes RIO to see that this guy is a paladin or shadow priest.

Personally i always invite high RIO paladins and shadow priests. You know they had to fight a little bit harder to get the RIO score they do - and they therefore almost always perform very well for their score.

Push weeks is a problem and so is boosting. I'm not sure how those problems can be fixed but it also doesnt really correlate to RIO in my opinion.

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Problem with push weeks is down to affixes. There are certain affixes that are blatantly anti-fun and make the whole experience terrible. There's also the issue with how Tyrannical scales with bosses. The blanket infinite scaling is insane. I.E. the LoS strat on first boss of Freehold is dumb.

Actually - so much this.

Push weeks is a lesser problem. The real problem is dead weeks.

Just remove Tyrannical and Fortified imo. That would be a great start in getting rid of push/dead weeks.

But thats another discussion

[Clozer]

Its not about Power. Its about Choice.
As GroupLeader, you have the Choice to pick the players you want to play with. Depending on various factors.
As GroupMember, you have the Choice to pick the players you want to play with. Depending on various factors.

But, to go into your power play:
The Keyholder cannot "Decide" for any player to apply to his group. So, the first person who has any kind of "Power", is the person to apply to a group, if no one applies to your group, for whatever reasons, you hold no Power.

The same analogy you use: "If you dont Decide to apply for a group you dont do a key" is the same: "If you dont Decide to accept people into your group, you dont do a key".

There are (almost) always other Groups in the Tool I can Queue up. If I dont like a particular Group, or a Particular group declines me, I can choose a different one.
The same goes for GroupLeaders, if they dont like Particular Applicants, or a Particular player decides not to apply, he can always choose a different one.


This is an Interesting question, per default a player should not be forced to play with anyone.

But on the other hand, a player should be encouraged to have reasonable Expactations for his group mates.

E.g.:
I dont see it as a problem if a 480 Geared Player expects his groupmates to be at the same Level.
But I think its bad habit, and unreasonable if someone with 430 expects his groupmates to be 480.

Sadly, I dont have any ideas how one could combat this.



To be Fair, while I dont look for RaidProgress in 5man Content so I dunno how many I had who failed there, i can see that not every Mythic Raider is up to Par, especialy many of those who PuG around. Thats why I stay clear of raids where someone states: "X/12 mythic Raidlead". Those in almost all of my Experiences suck.



Sadly the first part is not true at this point. While having a High Ilvl enables you the possibility to outdamage many mechanics. There are sadly more than enough players who just dont tap into that possibility.
Apart from that, you are right. A Player who has just a little bit skill in handling his Character and knows how to handle the basic mechanics like dont stand in the fire, will probably not have much issues in an Average difficulty.


Sorry, I thought it was Obvious that it was Sarcasm. Because of the guy who claimed the only one with a Choice is the Keyholder.

I mean, if you want real Power, play a tank/heal, get invited to a run, start run, and then you have real Power over the key.

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Dunno about that, but I usually run Mondays, and all my runs are recorded since at least last season.

Another one of those - If I don't sign up he can't do a key arguments....

Not doing a key, is not an outcome to look at. The ONLY thing you can do and do a key afterwards is - TO SIGN UP. Everything else results in you not doing keys. There is not a single thing you can do but to SIGN UP for keys if you wanna do them. So the whole requirement of you doing keys is met, REQUIRES you to sign up. Again not signing up results in you not doing keys, therefore the premise of you doing keys is not met.

Really can't be that difficult to understand this.

"If no one sign ups the keyholder has no power" - yes and no one does a key. Again the premise is not met. Stop these mental gymnastics. As long as you did a key, it was the keyholders decision for you to be in that group or not.

[DonChalk]

See ya later dude. It's already in the game since R.IO uses the Armory's API.

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How does assigning a numerical value to something that you'd find on the Armory anyway in any way, shape or form equate into "less information"? You're campaigning to turn what is now a one-step process into a two- or three-step process for the smug satisfaction of, what, the elimination of a fucking number? The problem isn't R.IO, it's community perception; removing R.IO does nothing to impact the latter problem (and, if anything, would probably make it worse).

That...isn't...what I said. I didn't say that assigning a number is less information, I said we should be GIVEN less information. All we need is the information from the armory, assigning the number is where it gets into the territory of defaulting to someone with a 1900 score over someone with a 1880 score when in reality their performance for the same dungeon is likely negligible.

[LanToaster]

"Stop these mental gymnastics.

Says the one who thinks, that if I decide to not Queue up at specific Groups I wont run Keys at all.

[Clozer]

Says the one who thinks, that if I decide to not Queue up at specific Groups I wont run Keys at all.

What keys do you run if you do not sign up for any?