Pvp scaling seems screwed.

[agentsi]

Not sure how much information on the matter exists but a few videos are starting to pop up talking about how PVP scaling actually makes your character weaker when gearing up in certain circumstances. Here is an example, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=itrza8EpOSs. Anyone know anything more about these issues?

lol You're just now noticing it? Damage ranges were gone in either WoD or Legion, and are now coming back in Shadowlands. This was noticed way back in Beta, and no one cared at Blizzard. So did you really notice it before and never say anything? Or just saw this video and are now trying to pretend to be ahead of the curve with the issue?

Mathematically, none of this makes sense. Have more vers because of a socket, should, in theory, cause you to do more damage and take less damage. Blizzards formulas, as far as I know, do not include sockets, only base numerical values. And if that is the case, there is something off that we cannot see without a Blizzard response shownig us their math behind it.

[Alkizon]

tamarin
my arguments

which one? like "no, they are separate"? Well, then you also have nothing to boast about

...and this despite fact that you were literally told that what you're saying isn't obligatory characteristic, but only particular concrete realization. Moreover, not "same progress", but same system of progress, still in its own area, hence requirement of different characteristics: set for PvE (Kralljin mentioned them too) and a set for PvP, and one of reasons to weaken mutual influence, allow more flexible separate balance settings, while base/rules of the system remain the same.

"dogmatic" - in fact, this is essentially how it is, this is at the heart of game's design, it was always like this until certain point in this game's history, and everything stopped working exactly when devs began little by little abandon it, crush, break, shred into small pieces.

I tried simpler, couldn't be easier, but it doesn't help, unfortunately.

PvP stat requirements makes PvE gear useless, and PvE do PvP one.

at the same time, common customizable characteristics hold them together within one system (without need to artificially weaken players against each other, and without canceling need to make them stronger against mobs). WoD gearing doesn't fulfill this condition (= is still wrong), since both of them were simply deleted.

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Kralljin
- snip -

in fact, this is actually just part of what I have mentioned, but for some reason he didn't like it, apparently because this doesn't agree with devs'alike "piecewise" perception

[tamarin]

which one? like "no, they are separate"? Well, then you also have nothing to boast about

This:

This illustrate the fundamentally different nature of PvE and PvP, and the fundamentally different motivations of their respective players. PvP is about outplaying your opponents, PvE is about experiencing a power fantasy.

And this for more details:

PvE on the other hand is against scripted events, which can only adapt their difficulty to the players in a predetermined and limited fashion. So wow, as many other games, relies on giving computer opponents overwhelmingly inflated stats, which the player counters by getting equally inflated gear. Furthermore, to build up the power fantasy that is at the core of the PvE experience, you have to give players "awesome" over-the-top items that will reward them with the ability to trivialize past content. As a result, the stats progression ends up being exponential to keep things challenging.

I challenged this too:

Moreover, not "same progress", but same system of progress,

By saying this:

PvP has a natural progression that doesn't require any dedicated game system: you, the player behind the character, is getting better at reading your enemies, better at outplaying them, and better at playing your class, against enemies who similarly get better all the time. That's the only progression you really need in pvp.

[Alkizon]

tamarin
- snip -

Both first quotes tell only how current devs have implemented this content, but don't explain why this requires separate (= different type of) progress, in other words there is no causal relationship; opponent elementary can be just AI and everything you said suddenly turns upside down - again, this is just question of implementation, but not universal paradigm, I gave the answer (and even link where it goes into detail), but you didn't want to take this into account. This is especially ludicrous to read given level of idiocy of current scaling and in... unexpectedly, PvE too (we won't separately going to recall non-online games, RPG games in which environment grows with you). So it could be different ~ devs' decision/implementation.

Last two ones... again, you aren't talking about PvP, you're talking about specific game genre, which this game is not (although, through efforts of devs, it's slowly moving in this direction, which has been criticized a lot of times, and continues to be criticized in all thematic forums). About which I already joked too, that then you don't need gear at all, if it's just about skill competition... but it's not, never was.

This also about how quickly you can reach ceiling (in our case it's BIS gear) without letting/interfering others do it, so "progress in PvP" isn't always just about "skill", but also depends on game design (objectives) ~ devs' decision/implementation (however, as well as concept of fun and interest). From same original post:

In short, according to 1st quote, point is that gear = characteristics are important for separation content areas, for individual RPG customization and as indicator of character's progress in this content (since “content” is available from the beginning for PvP, rating talks more about your skill, but gear - about your progress;

MoanaLisa
Limited time to play implies more solo play so PVE is a natural choice.

I'd say that statement would be true only if obtaining progress and content mostly tied to it (since limited time =<priority>= profit activities), but since there is no specialization in characteristics (PvP vs PvE) and PvP doesn't usually take precedence in direct progress for such conditions (since encounters aren't limited by CD, they're controlled(/exploitable) by players and take lesser time), your statement is absolutely true. It's logical, because conclusion in this case is obvious and no any stupid PvP talents will be able to prevent this. I'd criticize word "solo" in same way, but I won't.

these concepts are somewhat blurred for PVE (because of LFR/M+(-vicious opinion) multi-level difficulty, with mentioned balance/progress system's+ violation/overlap)).

See, you already received answers to those stuff before, which means that your claims are groundless

All that is needed in this case is to determine basis, game's fundamental design, on basis of which it's built, to determine these very dogmas, but "lo and behold" they have long been defined and perfectly fulfilled their purpose *pointing at long history of this game* this is another proof that changes for the sake of changes are at loss for yourself.

Of course, I could say this without jokes:
presence of PvE gear progress imposes presence of same progress in PvP, 1) since characteristics are one of your resources and customizing mechanism in this game so gear needed same as its progress, 2) since main task of PvP is to outplay/outsmart enemy by monipulating resources, which often requires not so much motoric's skill growth, but more experience, knowledge of ready-made combinations = 2 - scripted solutions, and 1 - mechanism of getting those resources = progress (char.lvl, gear)... 1+2 = just like PvE (just without specific timers, more reactionary than dance type, but still with same base). Devs have already said themselves once that "we can make opponents harder/smarter/more"reactive", but this type will interfere with ordinary players, as well as game's performance". So, if simplify within framework of holistic design, then PvE is just more predictable PvP, hence same progress mechanism.
This is what this game is based on, this is how it works.

And now, where're you heading (and apparently devs too, as I have already said) - your "vision" will really work if and only if these two activities won't have any contacts within the game at all, but then there will be no talk needed, it will be just "2 different games/modes within same theme park" like pet battles. Is this something, that you really want it to be? Because if this is so, then you should say it, so I won't waste time explaining how them to "make friends" to each other.

[Kralljin]

in fact, this is actually just part of what I have mentioned, but for some reason he didn't like it, apparently because this doesn't agree with devs'alike "piecewise" perception

Yep, because Blizzards execution sucks really hard.

At this point, it would be better to implement PvP stats.
Because the underlying game has changed too much that you cannot make PvP gear identical to PvE gear (not to mention that this hasn't really existed in WoW to begin with).

It's not the "best solution", but the pragmatic one, because Blizzard seems to be currently unable to implement the "best solution" in an actual working fashion that doesn't have major pitfalls.

[Alkizon]

Kralljin
Yep, because Blizzards execution sucks really hard.

In general, there are no other solutions here except divide modes, or use mechanism laid down in game initially (friends explained to me how it works with characteristics, but apparently I'm not capable of such feat) to divide by characteristics, and not just characteristics, namely "requirements" of characteristics... it follows from this, that I'd still like to correct part of your message, there's some inaccuracy. One rating PvP stat is not enough, balance will again shake towards PvP items (if it even possible to talk about such thing with so many unbalancing systems-add-on and complexities), rating PvE stats are also needed (you mentioned them in your first message)

Kralljin
However, there PvE specific stats such as Hit, Mana regen (Mp5 / Spirit), Defense / Parry / Dodge for using that much PvP gear in PvE, you could use some isolated pieces, but not the whole set.

since requirements for each areas will include only their characteristics, and they must be demanding enough to devalue mutual influence.

So, here is the problem: even if there is some hypothetical opportunity to put idea of ​​need for PvP one into their heads, then almost no one even tries to remember PvE ones in their similar requests/recommendations. But both parts of the system are needed for a full-fledged work; this is how it's arranged, this is how they could be "friends". I can understand widespread whining about that this is convention, formalism and so on, but as practice shows, this is not such a convention after all, and they have a very specific, albeit not obvious, purpose. I told this here already:

PvP stat requirements makes PvE gear useless, and PvE do PvP one.

They lost one of components in WoD so removed second: substitution took place not because MoP system didn't work, but because they decided to remove rating PvE characteristics, which upset overall balance between gear from different activities. But they don't want to bring first ones back, that's why they turn up their nose now out of second - this is something stupidly simple, which still most people in such topics don't want to understand. And this is after fact that whole system in MoP looked quite acceptable for majority due to this reason, but which, unknowingly, people continue to attribute to class design at that time (it wasn't bad, especially after what happened later, but main reason is balanced set of characteristics).

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Gotural
@Alkizon Honestly man, I would recommend you to use Google Translation. It became crazily powerful thanks to Deep Learning and stuff.
I mean no offense and genuinely think you could convey your ideas easier.

In fact, this is partly of how it happens, to speed up the process, so your proposed option probably doesn't work.

I'd like to make out "literally" couple of sentences, which you don't understand/like, in order to understand what exactly confuses you there, what is "not correctly formulated" in them, because I don't see this on my own, especially if consider that some of them are small and very clear. We already did such thing once, it turned out that person used it "as argument in dispute" in the end, but not as a real claim, so I'm very suspicious of such statements now

[kebabmasterxd]

PvP scaling should never of been implemented in the first place.

utter joke.

[Gotural]

@Alkizon Honestly man, I would recommend you to use Google Translation. It became crazily powerful thanks to Deep Learning and stuff.
I mean no offense and genuinely think you could convey your ideas easier.

[Recovery]

In which way didn't it work? It did everything we needed a PvP gearing system to do and did it well. It allowed PvPers to gear up without having to waste their time doing pve content, while allowing pve gear to remain unmatched by PvP gear for pve content.

It didn't have weird scaling issues like we're having now. It didn't have the side effect of resilience of indirectly making healing much more powerful than intended.

So tell us, why it "didn't work" exactly?

The thing people dont realize is that Resilience would work very well TODAY!

Back when resilience was a thing, dampening was not. Thats what made obnoxious amounts of resilience so good.

Now that dampening is a thing... Heals become ineffective, regardless of damage reduction.

Bring resilience back 100% imo.

Pretty sure healing is automatically reduced as soon as you step into instance pvp now, as well. Whereas, it was not pre-mop, during the resilience era.

There is no reason that resilience couldnt be re-introduced into the game.

[RelaZ]

I virtually agree with anything here.

For me personally, i am fine with some overlap existing between PvE and PvP.
However, Blizzards method of implementation is flat out terrible.

In a world pre-minmaxing, that might have worked. But even then Resilience brought us 4/8 T6.5, Warglaives, Stunherald, Shadowmourne, Phylactery, DBW, Fangs of the Father, Vial, Cunning and many more.

Basically, wearing 20-50% PvE gear was the optimal way to play the game for most specs when Resilience was a thing. I personally think that's absolutely disgusting, and with how much more competitive and minmaxed the scene has become, it'd impossible to stay viable without these kind of items nowadays.

The problem is that Resilience doesn't provide a benefit in all scenarios. Oh, your class is a glass cannon and just wants to do some more DPS (at the expense of survivability)? Well, Resilience aint going to help you, go get some PvE gear.

PvP Power and Versatility are both better in this regard, with Versa being the best (but Versatility should obviously be PvP specific instead of available on all gear).

OT: Oh, and to the dude who can't make a proper post nor use understandable language: Just please stop posting. No, your fancy thesaurus.com synonym words and criss-cross linking to obscure and unintelligble posts aren't making you look clever, they're just making you look completely misguided and unintelligent. Trying to read your posts gave me a headache. I don't even know how to respond to your actual comments because it's impossible to grasp the meaning, nor do I have the will to try to dig harder.

[Kiljaedon]

I use to be for a power increase based around gear but if Blizzard solution is this scaling system then I would be all for us having a set in stone I level for everyone when in instanced pvp.