Pvp scaling seems screwed.

[Kiljaedon]

Not sure how much information on the matter exists but a few videos are starting to pop up talking about how PVP scaling actually makes your character weaker when gearing up in certain circumstances. Here is an example, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=itrza8EpOSs. Anyone know anything more about these issues?

[tamarin]

All this was known in the BFA beta. We wrote detailed threads and posts about it. I remember one of the designers even participating in the discussions.

The system was obviously wrong, both because of the obscurity (you couldn't gauge how powerful an enemy was in pvp anymore based on how much HP they had - I would fear people with low HP much more than well geared people at some point), the damage you dealt and received as displayed by the game was so distorted as to become fiction, and this system created many degenerate situations. The worst examples were things like 5 levels 120 unable to make a dent in one level 80 healer, or people faring better by pvping naked.

All they did was to fudge and cap numbers around to get rid of the most degenerate cases and to make it generally less obvious. But it's still there and it's still trash.

So yeah. That's what they replaced the perfectly good WoD system with. All of these issues were identified and feedbacked during BFA's beta. They don't care.

[apustus]

Imaginary numbers for imaginary content.

[tamarin]

Imaginary numbers for imaginary content.

We get it, you don't care about pvp. Yet you read the "imaginary content" forum and post in it. Weird.

[RelaZ]

Just to start off: This is a complete farce.

Remove "Hidden PvP scaling" and give PvPers either PvP Power & PvP Resilience stats (MoP) or PvP item levels (WoD). Only active in War Mode & instanced PvP. PvPers deserve to be heard and have our opinions respected and not be treated like second hand citizens in our preferred content.

Not sure how much information on the matter exists but a few videos are starting to pop up talking about how PVP scaling actually makes your character weaker when gearing up in certain circumstances. Here is an example, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=itrza8EpOSs. Anyone know anything more about these issues?

Well, other than the fact that the main PvP developer decided to mock us by making an MS Paint illustration (partly shown in that video that you linked, at 00:06) at the start of BfA when everyone was questioning this system at that time (which we'd been doing since it's inception in alpha/beta - because it's a bad non-transparent system) and wanted the formulas and everything so we could actually verify that it's working.

Here's the twitter post with the MSPaint image for reference: https://twitter.com/ckaleiki/status/1041878657701052416

EDIT: And here is a link to the, in my opinion, best reaction: https://imgur.com/ZbayjyM

So yeah. That's what they replaced the perfectly good WoD system with.

Well, that's what they replaced the wholly inadequate Legion system with (with which they initially replaced the perfectly good WoD system with).

[Alkizon]

RelaZ
or PvP item levels (WoD)

this one won't work, it didn't work, just "scaling of another level", there shouldn't be any such stuff.

tamarin
In which way didn't it work?

Ok, if you insist, I'll quote link's stuff

Significant remark:
It's completely clear (based on foregoing) that scaling system used in WoD also doesn't satisfy any general conditions, since 1) it complicates whole, even without it, "hard-working on bug-forming" mathematical component (even sharp stats' jumps unpleasant); 2) doesn't form adequate/balancing and controlled by player mutual “weakening” of participation in another/activity not intended for this gear (penalty for wrong activity together with benefits for right matching, this fully includes balance of size for incoming/outgoing damage/healing/control and regeneration/absorption between participation in different activities); 3) completely devalue progress part and therefore experience/training period for particular activity; 4) creates blurred border between them, which introduces some people into various forms of misconceptions regarding stats'/itemization organization.

In other words:
1) this is scaling, which should be avoided in any form;
2) it doesn't make PvP gear better, and PvE worse (doesn't provide additional power-moderating functionality, see topic theme);
3) based on 2nd, progress doesn't require separate path and experience;
4) creates a lot of local interference in understanding performance of characteristics.
(with same success, they could introduce completely non-working gear in "not its" area without any scaling, which, still, would be another innovation that doesn't obey logic of outside world (world's mechanics), along with shards/phasing/scaling/and other nonsense)
And if you'd look there (in link), then you'll additionally learn that it's not enough just one PvP characteristic, it also would need moderating PvE rating characteristics, which (due to whining of community, or because of banal personal misunderstanding) have long been cut out exactly during this unfortunate expansion.

PvP stat requirements makes PvE gear useless, and PvE do PvP one.

They lost one of components in WoD so removed second: substitution took place not because MoP system didn't work, but because they decided to remove rating PvE characteristics, which upset overall balance between gear from different activities. But they don't want to bring first ones back, that's why they turn up their nose now out of second - this is something stupidly simple, which still most people in such topics don't want to understand. And this is after fact that whole system in MoP looked quite acceptable for majority due to this reason, but which, unknowingly, people continue to attribute to class design at that time (it wasn't bad, especially after what happened later, but main reason is balanced set of characteristics).

Gotural
WoD system worked perfectly fine, it was definitely the best system we ever had

No, it wasn't, and I already explained why: it was just artificial crutch after "pruning" of effective moderating characteristics. That's why their next step was (WoD's version didn't solve this problem, however, like many other ones, about which they tried to forget) "trimming" templates (so no PvE power influence, although with this further they added so many non-characteristic systems that devalued all their steps (even if forget that they're wrong) in this direction, and going to continue in SL, which isn't helping situation, you have to think more globally, and not only "inside your cell"), which had already trimmed everything, including characteristics' customization, litirally - system that was previously hanging on items was given directly to characters.

Any scaling is a-priory corrupted system (items or characters - doesn't matter), it's not even necessary to go into details

[tamarin]

this one won't work, it didn't work, just "scaling of another level", there shouldn't be any such stuff.

In which way didn't it work? It did everything we needed a PvP gearing system to do and did it well. It allowed PvPers to gear up without having to waste their time doing pve content, while allowing pve gear to remain unmatched by PvP gear for pve content.

It didn't have weird scaling issues like we're having now. It didn't have the side effect of resilience of indirectly making healing much more powerful than intended.

So tell us, why it "didn't work" exactly?

[Gotural]

In which way didn't it work? It did everything we needed a PvP gearing system to do and did it well. It allowed PvPers to gear up without having to waste their time doing pve content, while allowing pve gear to remain unmatched by PvP gear for pve content.

It didn't have weird scaling issues like we're having now. It didn't have the side effect of resilience of indirectly making healing much more powerful than intended.

So tell us, why it "didn't work" exactly?

Yeah this ^

WoD system worked perfectly fine, it was definitely the best system we ever had :

- You progressed in PvE by upgrading your PvP gear BUT => PvE gear was the best for PvE.
- You progressed in PvP by upgrading your PvE gear BUT => PvP gear was the best for PvP.
- And of course you progressed mainly in PvP by upgrading your PvP gear and vice-versa.

Which is expected and allowed players to do some crosscontents between PvE and PvP.

It was simple, even better arguably than Resilience or PvP Power because those statistics ate some itemization budget, which means that a fully PvP geared character in WotLK for example, had less Crit or Haste than a PvE player with the same ilvl because he had Resilience instead, and this could theoretically create :

- Unfun gameplay => example of a PvP geared Fire Mage with not enough Crit to enjoy his spec because he has too much Resilience.
- Unbalanced situations where PvE gear become stronger => ArPen in WotLK comes to mind, or Haste for casters. Many players sought some pieces of PvE gears because these stats could be hard to find on PvP gear.

The only problems the WoD system had were in my opinion :

- It could theoretically be exploited by people engaging in PvP combat to upgrade their stats to fight a World Boss or whatever => Irrelevant since the outdoor content was super easy and not worth the hassle, but in theory it could be a problem.
- PvP players had the best stats period. What I mean by that is that if a PvE geared player ended up with let's say 24% Crit, 31% Haste and 50% Mastery, a PvP geared player would end with something like 27% / 35% / 58% => People could theoretically whine about that, saying they could prefer to have their uber buffed stats to fight dragons instead of players => Subjective and thus mostly irrelevant.

So overall, the WoD system had no issue.

[ff50dccd-a222-42f3-a786]

So yeah. That's what they replaced the perfectly good WoD system with. All of these issues were identified and feedbacked during BFA's beta. They don't care.

And it wasn't even about design. They implemented their design wrong and not tested it. I genuinely hope that all the people responsible for scaling disaster at the beginning of BfA have been fired by now.

[Ilookfly]

For now I guess we just have to remove and reapply our sockets like in Rextroys new "fix" video.

[Wuusah]

For now I guess we just have to remove and reapply our sockets like in Rextroys new "fix" video.

Blizzard finally found a way to squeeze gold out of pvp players

[Gotural]

No, it wasn't, and I already explained why

The problem is that you didn't explain why, you just stated your opinion.
Plus you are a bit hard to understand (no offense dude).

If you are saying that MoP system was better, then I respectfully disagree, but I disagree a lot!
PvP Power as a whole has been an okay system, but definitely not the greatest we can think of.

Like Resilience, it used to cost some stats on the itemization budget which was its main sin.
Arguably, you cannot expect a spec to work as the designers wanted it to play when it has only half of the stats it is expected to have.

My previous example was pretty simple :

Let's say the designers expect the Fire Mage spec to be balanced with a Crit stat around 20% to 30% because of how Hot Streak works, but the player can't get enough Crit in PvP because half of his stats are eaten by Resilience and PvP Power. Then the class cannot fully works like it should and thus, the game cannot arguably be in a perfect state. Even though it could be in a "good enough" state.

I would even go as far as saying that your argument about scaling being a corrupted mechanic in general is moot, because the way WoD "scaling" worked in fact only worked like scaling in appearance.

Basically, your PvP gear in WoD worked like that : You have an Ilvl of 410 but if you enter PvP you go up to 440 Ilvl.
Sounds like scaling right?
But what if instead of that, on every pieces of your PvP gear it had a passive which read "You deal 0.5% more damage to enemy players and take 0.5% less damage from them. Stackable."
It would arguably does the exact same thing, and I mean it litterally! But no one would think it's scaling anymore.

Or you could even have a 12 pieces set of PvP gear which, when fully completed, would give you the buff "Call to arms!" which would give you +20% primary stat, +20% stamina and +10% secondary stats when engaged in PvP. Once again it would exactly the same thing as the "WoD scaling system" but because it would be worded differently, no one would call it scaling anymore.

[korijenkins]

I don't even think PVE and PVP gear needs to be separated necessarily, gear just needs to matter in some way.

Putting undergeared or bad players on par with me doesn't let them kill me, rather it just serves to annoy me and waste my time.

[Sanguinerd]

I don't even understand why in the hell they started with this scaling nonsense. If a better geared player kills me, tough shit.. I'll get better gear and try again. Why does Blizzard need to hold our hand ;/

Sure it's nice fighting people with the same level of gear as me but equally nice is killing people because I outgear them, I "worked" for that gear and it's the payoff of spending the time to get it. What's the point of getting gear when you'll scale anyway?

[pinkz]

Not sure how much information on the matter exists but a few videos are starting to pop up talking about how PVP scaling actually makes your character weaker when gearing up in certain circumstances. Here is an example, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=itrza8EpOSs. Anyone know anything more about these issues?

BFA PVP scaling that went live was a issue identified at expansion launch. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MhyXtAKvJhc many top PVP'rs knew about this, even players like venruki, sure he may not not realized the issues with gems and sockets recently brought up by youtuber rextroy

BFA beta/PTR had bizarre scaling issues not only on ill geared vs geared,. but high levels vs lower level players, so bad, a level 20 something could near blow up a 120 in 1 vs 1 wpvp/duels.

BFA live wpvp/duels, blizzard protected 120s, so no 120 will chance die to lower level twinks and now with essences/corruption are protected from 111 twinks.

Blizzard bringing variances back will make it harder to test or data mine for hidden systems. problem solved...hide more

[Alkizon]

The problem is that you didn't explain why

omg how poor everything is...

No, you just ignored every bit of explanation. Characteristics have 3 purposes, they are written in first link of original message, here is direct link, this material isn't mine, it is simply quoted. Since we're talking now about separating characteristics, this is first paragraph:

1) Dividing characteristics (dividing pvp-pve game component progression)
- Whole this game's balance and tuning revolves around characteristics, which I have already repeatedly mentioned <url> If you don't understand this, then there is nothing to talk about with you. Therefore, with removing rating secondary characteristics they undermine setting/division between different game activities, areas of interest (that's for what were pve-powers = hit, expertise, mastery, mp5/spirit and others so 'unloved', 'boring' by all of you indicators, together with pvp-power = resilience; forget about pvp-perks/hit-pvp-target-item(lvl)-scaling, for such mechanic of 'restrictions' has no lore/theoretical substantiation in the game, in fact, like what the 'classes' have become now - complete nonsense) => items=characteristics are important for reinforcing your field of activity => gear should matter.

Heresy that you are talking (about crit, etc.) happens here only because you didn't read material carefully, what is taken in PvE gear by PvE characteristics, in PvP gear is taken by PvP characteristics, so if it's technically impossible to gain certain percentage of crit or whatever else, then you can't pick up on either gear, and if there is opportunity (and items with same ilvl doesn't differ in any other way in terms of other characteristics), then it's on both (if everything is done correctly, then difference, if any, will be very insignificant). If by quote then:

6) since significant part of generally useful characteristics for PvE is taken (on items) by general PvE characteristics, and by resilence - for PvP, so generally useful characteristics/stats can remain here completely proportional to level of items received (~conditionally equivalent to each other) same as level itself, which makes use items "for other activity" still not entirely useless and creates some kind of similar to catch-up mechanics "in case of laziness/as last resort".

If we'll back to original post, than your "crit" stuff is hiding under 2nd paragraph:

2) General characteristics (individual customization)
- Since each participant of any activity chooses specific self role, it requires existence of so-called general characteristics that are relevant for any type of activity. Moreover, preferences of different participants will also differ (more haste, more crit, more whatever he/she wants) and by cutting them off (for example by templates) you cut their strategy/opportunities, you make useless all work and knowledge that is spent/required for intelligent individual customization (remember enchanting, jewelcrafting, engineering, leatherworking, tailoring, blacksmithing insertions, also some of them had differentiation by utility too and reforging) => items=characteristics are important for reinforcing your individual gameplay => gear should matter.

It's to question of how characteristics work, which you couldn't understand. And now already I have a question: do you at least understand why WoD's scaling option isn't suitable? Where is it wrong? I hope now you understand that this isn't "the same with scaling in WoD" at all, because then player won't have enough general customization characteristics and universal stam/str/agi/int stats (I'm not even talking about fact that it still doesn't devalue PvE items in PvP with all ensuing consequences). You're suggesting not just naked percentage, but direct ilvl manipulation.

Also "when engaged in PvP" ~ scaling, items (= characteristics) should either work or don't exist, and no any "when engaged". Everything is simple with dividing characteristics, formula for mobs doesn't have PvP stats inside, and one using in players interaction does, but only 2 targets with PvP gear won't have characteristics necessary for PvE encounter, which means, without looking at work of PvP characteristics in such interaction (in calculations), they still will have certain problems in maintaining threat, regenerating, hitting target, damage and so on (since it's absent in any mob's formula)... and no any scaling needed.

For completeness, I'll still quote the 3rd paragraph (which suggests that separating characteristics are, in fact, also linear component of progress precisely in activity of interest to us, which, in their absence, is in no way feasible)

3) Progress (time investment)
- Enough has been said about this, but I'll also clarify something else: progress is an indicator of how long you have been participating in specific activity (yes, this is RPG indicator, but not only), because no one will ask for gear from last pve part (raid) for free or make everyone equal, people will laugh because it's stupid (we're all equal at the start, and the rest is depends on us), it'll take you some time to meet requirements (forget now about LFR, many artificial complexity systems and RNG/scaling-loot, these are incorrect additions to game, parasitic, worsening balance and progress), but why should this approach be different for last pvp part (season) in the same game? Those who mention MOBA games (at best, it should be about FPS, but there also have some pitfalls) are wrong, because time is also needed there, character gets experience and collects/buys gear => without items and time it'll be inconsequential, which still means tha-a-at.. What? True! => gear should matter.

- - - Updated - - -

problem solved...hide more

They seem to be even dumber than players... or more stubborn don't know.

[tamarin]

Alkizon, we are not being dumb for not understanding you, you are being dumb for being unable to express your thoughts clearly. This routine of pointing at your clusterfuck of cross-linked terribly written posts and then belittling people for not understanding them (or not even bothering to read them, frankly) is tiresome.

(Don't even consider giving me the "I'm french, so english is not my first language" excuse: I'm french too.)

Learn to summarize your ideas in a few points and avoid going on a tangent every other sentence. Also, keep your writing simple. Using big words and convoluted grammar only serves to obscure your points. Your posts have a strong "timecube" vibe.

So, digging through your multiple word salads, I think I can summarize your argument (which you should have done yourself, frankly), in plain english this way:

1. Dividing PvE and PvP gear is not necessary because they follow similar progression curves
2. Gear provides customization
3. Gear provides progression, making you more powerful over time, therefore gear should matter both in PvP and PvE

Let me get 2 out of the way: this is the one point we agree on.

I'll address the two other points at the same time because they are really two sides of the same coin.

No, the PvE progression and PvP progression curves are not the same. Even worse, they are not even of the same nature.
PvP has a natural progression that doesn't require any dedicated game system: you, the player behind the character, is getting better at reading your enemies, better at outplaying them, and better at playing your class, against enemies who similarly get better all the time. That's the only progression you really need in pvp.

PvE on the other hand is against scripted events, which can only adapt their difficulty to the players in a predetermined and limited fashion. So wow, as many other games, relies on giving computer opponents overwhelmingly inflated stats, which the player counters by getting equally inflated gear. Furthermore, to build up the power fantasy that is at the core of the PvE experience, you have to give players "awesome" over-the-top items that will reward them with the ability to trivialize past content. As a result, the stats progression ends up being exponential to keep things challenging.

If you naively trust PvE and PvP progression to be compatible, you end up with the issue of the former having hyper inflated stats compared to the later. PvEers are using attack trinkets and borrowed abilities that are meant to deal with monumental HP sponges. Using these in PvP is like fighting footsoldiers with AA guns.

This illustrate the fundamentally different nature of PvE and PvP, and the fundamentally different motivations of their respective players. PvP is about outplaying your opponents, PvE is about experiencing a power fantasy.

This is why PvE progression and PvP progression are incompatible.

You are arguing for a mathematically sound stat system that wouldn't require "hacks" such as PvP combat ilevel. But it is simply not possible because PvE and PvP are really two completely different games that just happen to coexist within the same framework, on the same platform. They should be kept separate enough so that both can remain enjoyable, while still remaining integrated into the same world. So far, the WoD pvp iLevel system has by far been the best solution to this dilemma.

[Alkizon]

- snip -

Firstly, I didn't call anybody (except devs, after all, word used by me is generally not absolute/indicative, but comparative characteristic) dumb.
Secondly, it is the same game and the same system, be it PvP or PvE (scripted or unscripted staff this is exclusively devs'choice). Progress is absolutely the same (denying this you're making same mistake as person with whom we spoke here; difference between them, which is, is just moderated using indicated characteristics), otherwise everything turns into competitive isolated system of small arenas, divorced from reality, but you have open world, and instanced form of PvP is only an addition for convenience (system shouldn't revolve around it, this point is often recalled when discussing game evolution and class design, now we're talking about open world MMO). Devs' problem is that they think exactly the same as you are writing now, which means that good and well-thought-out PvP system there is no sense to expect here. If everything was as you say, then you won't need gear at all (so also our conversation), Y?
And third, please don't remember either about essences or about any other type of borrowed power, for a very simple reason: for normal design, nothing like this should be here.

As an excuse for our "mutual misunderstanding" I can quote the following:

In other words, when we argue, we not only look from different angles of view, but also at completely different "resulting" design systems... but it's if we assume that you're able to think more globally, and not only within "current private inconvenience".

[tamarin]

Secondly, it is the same game and the same system, be it PvP or PvE. Progress is absolutely the same (denying this you're making same mistake as person with whom we spoke here; difference between them, which is, is just moderated using indicated characteristics),

Nope. You can't just ignore my arguments and just reply "no it isn't" without explaining why my arguments are wrong. Asserting that PvE and PvP are the same game and should share the same progression without providing arguments to justify it is dogmatic. I have no patience for that.

[Kralljin]

Alkizon, we are not being dumb for not understanding you, you are being dumb for being unable to express your thoughts clearly. This routine of pointing at your clusterfuck of cross-linked terribly written posts and then belittling people for not understanding them (or not even bothering to read them, frankly) is tiresome.

Learn to summarize your ideas in a few points and avoid going on a tangent every other sentence. Also, keep your writing simple. Using big words and convoluted grammar only serves to obscure your points. Your posts have a strong "timecube" vibe.

I virtually agree with anything here.

This is why PvE progression and PvP progression are incompatible.

For me personally, i am fine with some overlap existing between PvE and PvP.
However, Blizzards method of implementation is flat out terrible.

Blizzard wants to avoid PvP specific stats - despite the fact that we had a PvP specific stat in TBC (where this philosophy was probably implemented the best) and one could even argue that in Classic, PvP gear having more Stamina than some uber pieces from PvE also served that purpose.

And those are the only points in time where this philosophy existed Pre Legion - so a PvP specific stat does not automatically lead to both paths becoming totally separated from each other.

The issue is that Blizzard wants to use the same exact gear for PvP and PvE, without any barriers between it, which creates this massive issue that every source of PvP gear directly competes with any PvE source.
Which creates this extremely weird effect we've seen in Legion / BfA, the starting point for someone who wants to PvP aren't random Battlegrounds, but PvE progression.
And you just move further and further up the PvE progression ladder until you reach a point where people ask: Why did i want to PvP again? I already have all the gear.

The only useful gear (Heroic and upwards) is locked behind rather high Rating requirements, something that only a limited pool of people can ever reach due to how a competitive ladder functions, unlike PvE where theoretically everyone could clear a Heroic raid and receive loot.
(meanwhile in TBC, Arena points merely dictated the pace at which you acquired items, not their actual power)

Problem is, if you move the "good gear" too far down the PvP ladder, then you will have people swarming towards PvP, something what we saw happening in late TBC where people started to AFK leech Season 1 / 2 gear because was pretty decent for PvE as well.
However, there PvE specific stats such as Hit, Mana regen (Mp5 / Spirit), Defense / Parry / Dodge for using that much PvP gear in PvE, you could use some isolated pieces, but not the whole set.

In the same vein, Resilience ensured that someone without PvP gear just blew up whenever someone looked at them.

These stats served like a membrane, it was allowed to have some overlap, but wearing too much gear one PvE in PvP (or vice versa) started to hinder your performance.
Now, this membrane is gone and these modes hold each other at gun point because if one is too tedious, you have everyone swarming to the other and completely ignoring the other one.