[Balance] Shadowlands Class Updates

[Lucrece]

Content is doable by every spec, even in BFA where Guardian was for the most part demolished after Legion (just like affliction warlocks) at the beginning, we've had M+15 carries using a guardian druid while carrying the dead DPS throughout the entire dungeon including fortified+teeming week and tyrannical weeks.

It's really at the cutting edge where you start feeling the limits of a spec.

Granted, good classes/specs shine the most at low skill levels because the good classes/specs happen to yield easy results (BM for example) that can carry the underperformers.

[huth]

Well, guess i'm just going to macro Ravenous Frenzy and CA/Inc together. Not that i'm complaining, i'd just forget one or the other regularly otherwise.(Going Venthyr no matter what)

[TickTickTick]

Wow, CA and Revenous Frenzy off of gcd is huge, it's 3 sec of dps gain.

- - - Updated - - -

So another beta build and another set of changes in whatever direction the blizz dev felt like going today.

CA now grants 15% haste instead of 15% crit, but it no longer generates 30 AP.
Incarnation now grants 10% crit in addition to CA bonus.
Moonfire initial and dot dmg slightly buffed.
Convoke the Spirit nerfed from 16 spells to 12 spells (-25% nerf).

All in all, I'm happy to see CA giving haste again, but it no longer giving ap hurts. Also Incarnation looks less attractive now. Soul of the Forest might end up a go-to talent now.

With CtS nerf and Revenous Frenzy being taken off of gcd, I think the choice is clear now.

All in all, yet another confusing move towards who knows which direction.

[Sergar]

CA change was a nerf, you gained 30ap before which was worth several seconds of builder spam. It also nerfs the hell out of the Pulsar legendary which was the only good one other then Balance of all Things. Convoke the Spirits is the only interesting covenant we have and it gets nerfed. I guess we macro our 2 3 minute haste cds together instead, peak gameplay.

[huth]

As noted before, Inc gets the benefit of the Eclipse lasting 30s, and thus having a higher SS boost cap.

Convoke really isn't that interesting, though. You just cast it and that's it. Ravenous Frenzy at least requires that you make sure you stay active for the duration.

[lappee]

As noted before, Inc gets the benefit of the Eclipse lasting 30s, and thus having a higher SS boost cap.

Convoke really isn't that interesting, though. You just cast it and that's it. Ravenous Frenzy at least requires that you make sure you stay active for the duration.

RF is just a stacking haste buff, not really exciting and pretty much unusable in PvP because the drawback is so easy to trigger. Staying active in PvE is just doing PvE...
Convoke on the other hand requires you to think beforehand about targets (and dots), positioning etc. to get the max benefit.

Out of the two Convoke is definitely more interesting button to press, while RF might feel better because of all the haste

[huth]

Convoke on the other hand requires you to think beforehand about targets (and dots), positioning etc. to get the max benefit.

Hardly. Unless you for some reason want to stack Thrash. Most of the time it'll just annoy you by wasting a bunch of spells on pointless overheal.

[lappee]

Hardly. Unless you for some reason want to stack Thrash. Most of the time it'll just annoy you by wasting a bunch of spells on pointless overheal.

You can minimize those "pointless" overheals spells too, though hardly worth doing it unless you really needs that burst. Either way it has way more depth to it than what RF does at every level of gameplay.

[TickTickTick]

You can minimize those "pointless" overheals spells too, though hardly worth doing it unless you really needs that burst. Either way it has way more depth to it than what RF does at every level of gameplay.

You are talking about a spec for which the only non troll talent in the final talent row is a boring ass passive which you don't even notice during a standard fight.

IDK what kind of "depth" do you expect, you will be using CoS on cd anyway and it won't even fulfill it's full potential most of the time. If it used only the spells corresponding to your form then at least that would be a fine nuke cd, but the way it works makes it just a filler every 2 (iirc) minutes.

I know people want to force the "Night Fae is made for druids" narrative but its getting pretty ridiculous. Next time you'll tell me it's better to spam Wrath because it has better visuals than Starfire (opinion) and has more depth because you have to plan around travel time (Starfire hits instant, kekw such a boring spell lacking any depth).

And btw, RF is a stacking haste AND dmg% buff. Halfway through the duration you are able to do more than you ever could with CoS.

[lappee]

IDK what kind of "depth" do you expect, you will be using CoS on cd anyway and it won't even fulfill it's full potential most of the time. If it used only the spells corresponding to your form then at least that would be a fine nuke cd, but the way it works makes it just a filler every 2 (iirc) minutes.

I know people want to force the "Night Fae is made for druids" narrative but its getting pretty ridiculous. Next time you'll tell me it's better to spam Wrath because it has better visuals than Starfire (opinion) and has more depth because you have to plan around travel time (Starfire hits instant, kekw such a boring spell lacking any depth).

And btw, RF is a stacking haste AND dmg% buff. Halfway through the duration you are able to do more than you ever could with CoS.

That is where the depth comes in, you actually need to think about its usage rather than just press CD's on cd and fire away. Sure, if you want, you can just have another fire and forget button but that won't give you the maximized benefit of using it.

I couldn't care less about what is "made for druid" thematically, RF is just a boring button that you add to your CD's anyway. If you don't think theres much depth to convoke then thats fine, but you can't realistically argue that RF has the same depth (or more) than convoke.

Besides, even with the nerfs to convoke it is still rather on par with RF in ST damage

[GringoD]

Does anyone know whether Kindred Spirits and Lone Spirit will be taken off the GCD?
The latter feels really awful to press right now. If they do that and fix the Lone Spirit Torghast interactions, I'd probably go Kyrian.

[Lucrece]

Wow, CA and Revenous Frenzy off of gcd is huge, it's 3 sec of dps gain.

- - - Updated - - -

So another beta build and another set of changes in whatever direction the blizz dev felt like going today.

CA now grants 15% haste instead of 15% crit, but it no longer generates 30 AP.
Incarnation now grants 10% crit in addition to CA bonus.
Moonfire initial and dot dmg slightly buffed.
Convoke the Spirit nerfed from 16 spells to 12 spells (-25% nerf).

All in all, I'm happy to see CA giving haste again, but it no longer giving ap hurts. Also Incarnation looks less attractive now. Soul of the Forest might end up a go-to talent now.

With CtS nerf and Revenous Frenzy being taken off of gcd, I think the choice is clear now.

All in all, yet another confusing move towards who knows which direction.

Covenants are going to be a disaster if they don't get turned into 2 talent rows for both the covenant and class ability.

For one, the idea that they can balance covenants by soulbinds is a blatant LIE.

Demonhunter's Venthyr ability is single target. Warlock one is AoE. Night Fae hunter is AoE, rogue is ST. Demonhunter Kyrian is AoE, warlock and DK ST.

It will be virtually impossible to compensate specs for covenants through soulbinds because giving a soulbind for one spec more AoE to compensate for a ST class ability will then compound to the lack of ST for another spec's abundance of AoE but lack of ST through their own covenant ability.

Moreover, for some classes like DK or warlock, even if they made all covenant abilities miraculously equal in ST and AoE output, the fact that they are so utterly immobile means they would always feel compelled to go Night Fae or Venthyr and never Kyrian or Necrolord because they have enough survivability as is.

Same principle for druid and demonhunter, who have enough mobility and if all their covenants are balanced in output, they'd lean Kyrian and Necrolord for the survivability, especially since soul shape is not that good for druids.

If people thought BfA systems were a bad unbalanceable mess (when it was just mostly corruption RNG before vendor and their total negligence in balancing the essences and azerite traits, eg crucible of flame was always a shit essence while the PvP essence was BiS in PvE for many specs), they're in for a rude awakening in SL.

[ydraw]

Same principle for druid and demonhunter, who have enough mobility and if all their covenants are balanced in output, they'd lean Kyrian and Necrolord for the survivability, especially since soul shape is not that good for druids.

Soulshape is essentially displacer beast which I remember being pretty good for druids. The only spec it's kinda bad for is guardian since you lose mitigation while in soulshape form while other tanks don't.

And that's not to mention the insane OOC quality of life benefit of soulshape in rest areas being permanent.

I would argue that Fleshcraft is the worst of all the covenant abilities for druids since we have access to a zero cooldown defensive in bear form. The Kyrian one at least gives access to an ability we don't otherwise have in removal of bleeds/magic debuffs

[Sergar]

If all the primary covenant abilities and soulbinds were removed and I was just picking based on the class non-specific abilities I'd probably take Venthyr just because blinks are wildly powerful and theirs has more range then the Night Fae one. Soulshape itself is a slight improvement on travel/cat form, the blink is ok but more limited than the ventyr one or even ye olde displacer beast. It's better for traveling long distances while locking you out of damage which is not exactly a druid weakness (dash and stampeding roar). Fleshcraft is a another defensive on a kit that doesn't really need it although it's probably solid for guardian in M+ or anyone pushing high M+ in any run where you don't try to kill everything in a pack at once. Kyrian attendant is going to vary in value on every single fight for the rest of the expansion.

[huth]

If all the primary covenant abilities and soulbinds were removed and I was just picking based on the class non-specific abilities I'd probably take Venthyr just because blinks are wildly powerful and theirs has more range then the Night Fae one.

Venthyr is a straight-up aimable teleport, not just a blink. It actually allows you to go to places Soulshape can't, due to there being a pebble in the way.

[Lucrece]

Venthyr is a straight-up aimable teleport, not just a blink. It actually allows you to go to places Soulshape can't, due to there being a pebble in the way.

As a warlock/DK, the sustained movement on top of the blink overtakes the aimable teleport. The issue is that a 10% speed increase over travel form after a blink is used up isn't that big a deal for more mobile classes like druid. People are underestimating the Kyrian covenant ability, especially with current encounter design and its PvP potential (rogues are busted as hell, as they've always been).

A 70% speed boost would have made the covenant ability more attractive for the 1.5 min cd it has.

The covenant class abilities and covenant skill should have been talents in 2 separate rows for this xpac. As it stands it's going to be a balancing disaster to saddle people between covenant aesthetics, covenant class skills, and general covenant skills. A lot of people will end up unhappy.

[huth]

As a warlock/DK, the sustained movement on top of the blink overtakes the aimable teleport.

We're talking about Druids here, though, not Warlocks or DK. Besides, it has more than three times the reach of Soulshape blink.

[Lucrece]

We're talking about Druids here, though, not Warlocks or DK. Besides, it has more than three times the reach of Soulshape blink.

But that's without factoring the total distance gained over the duration of the skill. If it's something like N'zoth adds, I'll happily take soulshape to reach the ones of the other side of the room, for example. Burst mobility is generally more useful, but there are enough scenarios where the sustained mobility of soulshape can shine.

[huth]

But that's without factoring the total distance gained over the duration of the skill. If it's something like N'zoth adds, I'll happily take soulshape to reach the ones of the other side of the room, for example. Burst mobility is generally more useful, but there are enough scenarios where the sustained mobility of soulshape can shine.

Maybe, but those we already are good at. Burst mobility is what we're lacking.


On an unrelated note, i noticed that CtS now also casts Full Moon. Also, Ravenous Frenzy apparently does not consider being stunned "idle".

[GringoD]

Maybe, but those we already are good at. Burst mobility is what we're lacking.

Acting like Tiger Dash doesn't exist? I can't even think of a fight where I'd want more than that. Carapace p3 was really comfortable as druid.
I guess you can free up Renewal when you get another mobility cd.