What's the scolding horde players get at the start of the Ardenweald's covenant?

[Aucald]

It's actually the opposite. And seeing as how the writing team appears to have some serious issues when it comes to internal communication (Garrosh in Stonetalon, anyone?), I wouldn't put much faith in whatever Afrasiabi is spewing during a particular day. Especially when that dude looks like he's stoned af in half of his public appearances.

I would imagine that Danuser (a Senior Game Designer and Lead Narrative Designer) would actually answer to Afrasiabi, who is currently WoW's Creative Director. Designers are generally not above Directors in a game studio's hierarchy.

[DeltrusDisc]

[video=youtube;SHBl8K3hQhE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHBl8K3hQhE
The HD version took a fair while to upload, but here is the link if you wanna check it out/put it in your OP.
The entire play from start to finish plus talking to ysera, she does have a bit more to say during her flight but its not super important to this, and also its currently bugged if a specific world quest is up, meaning i would need to go turn on warmode then come back just to do this and im already going out of my way so eh...

Didn't see anything all that damning towards the Horde. O_o

[Mehrunes]

Putress did not frame the horde, Wrathgate was ordered by Sylvanas as of BfA.

Nope. Danuser refused to confirm that claim by Afrasiabi when pressed on the issue in a follow up interview.

The problem of Theramore was never the discussion if it was a valid target or not, it was the fact that a fucking nuke was used in it and that it was an act of so much aggression that an unstable cease if arms was turned into a war.

The factions had a ceasefire between WotLK and Cata, not Cata and MoP.

its not entirely that simple. sylvanas knew about it and secretly helped it, then putress messed it up and "Oh yeah it was totally the undead!" so sylvanas well "threw him to the crowd" as the pure blame, saving herself. so the only thing that has changed is that sylvanas knew about it but let it happen and in secret helped it.

Yeah, none of that is actually true. And that's even in context of Afrasiabi's remark itself, let alone the later Danuser's refusal to confirm what Afrasiabi said that @Ardenaso was talking about.

I'm also not sure what ceasefire you're referring to. I wasn't aware there was any between WotLK and MoP beyond a specific ceasefire enforced by the Argent Crusade at the tournament grounds in preparation for the assault on Icecrown, which never seemed to extend beyond that area given the gunship battle in the raid itself.

There was a ceasefire between WotLK and Cata. It's mentioned in The Shattering. But yeah, by the time of Theramore it was already a distant memory.

Taliesin did a pretty good justification video on it that I buy until the devs give us anything else.

Sylvanas: Alright Putress, if you see the Lich King, fire everything we've got.
Putress: And what about the alliance and horde forces below?
Sylvanas: Did I stutter?

Putress: Alright Varimathras, the Horde and Alliance will absolutely kill her for the Wrathgate, coup time, they'll never back her up.
Sylvanas: Look, it's Putress and Varimathras! This is all their fault, including the Wrathgate!
Thrall: Well I believe Sylvanas. Die, Putress!
Putress: Damn, the ol' switcheroo. * dies *

The devs did give us something else. I.e. Danuser's refusal to confirm Afrasiabi's "grand revelation", which brought us back to how the latest canon lore on the issue being Cata Forsaken intro where the omniscient narrator stated the Forsaken were falsely accused for the Wrathgate. Also, both Putress and Varimathras mention how years of their preparations have been wasted when they get killed. Not to mention the whole "Death to the living" war cry Putress gave at the Wrathgate. Top notch "I was concerned for the living and Sylvanas pressured me to kill them" vibes right there. Meanwhile Varimathras was summoning goddamn Sargeras. I'm sure it was so Sargeras could lead group therapy sessions for the families of the soldiers that fell at the Wrathgate.

The goblin miners in Silithus attacked the Alliance first per BTS, and at any rate absolutely nobody in-universe uses them as a justification nor starting point for the war.

JFC, not you too. In BtS the Goblins attacked the Explorer's League. Which had fuck all to do with the quests (in which the Alliance quite obviously attacked first), because they were about the SI:7. And the events of the cinematic that started said questline was repeated word for word in the very same BtS you're talking about. Right at the start. With said cinematic (and chapter) culminating in Shaw telling Anduin he already has people working on learning more about Azerite (i.e. stabbing Goblins to loot Azerite samples from their corpses). At which time Anduin didn't even have the idea to send the Explorer's League as well. It's something that he thought of after his conversation with Magni multiple chapters later.

And Blizzard brushing Alliance aggression under the carpet is meaningless. Those events still happened and they still constitute an attack on the Horde. Besides, in their sloppy writing they actually indicated the Alliance and the Horde were already fighting each other in BtS. The factions needed a ceasefire to make even the Gathering happen, even though it was supposed to be a peaceful meeting of civilians on neutral ground. Ceasefire indicates conflict. Otherwise there'd be no fire to be ceased.

I thought the Alliance attacked the miners before Sapphronetta even set foot there

Not just before she even set foot there. Before Anduin even got the idea to send the Explorer's League to Silithus. Meanwhile Shaw informed Anduin that his own people are already working on getting more information on Azerite in chapter 1 or 2 (not to mention the fact that SI:7 had to get even that first sample somehow in the first place, meaning they were already in Silithus before the book even began).

There no reason to believe the alliance attacked first no one in the book acts like there was any engagement before the goblins attacked the explorers league.

Mabye there was some spying and theft but an attack just doesn’t add up with the book.

Given how the SI:7's expedition to Silithus not only did not interact with the Explorer's League but weren't even mentioned in the latter's chapters at all (despite the fact that the book did in fact reiterate that the SI:7 was sent to Silithus long before the Explorer's League), the Explorer's League not knowing of SI:7's clashes with the Goblins is utterly immaterial.

[Accendor]

Given how Danuser himself disproved it practically the following day, I would say that it's all headcanon.



At least until there are (even) more retcons incoming

That's not what Danuser is saying ib the interview at all. He says she was not the one to deploy it, but we already knew that before. That part never was in question.

[Jastall]

JFC, not you too. In BtS the Goblins attacked the Explorer's League. Which had fuck all to do with the quests (in which the Alliance quite obviously attacked first), because they were about the SI:7. And the events of the cinematic that started said questline was repeated word for word in the very same BtS you're talking about. Right at the start. With said cinematic (and chapter) culminating in Shaw telling Anduin he already has people working on learning more about Azerite (i.e. stabbing Goblins to loot Azerite samples from their corpses). At which time Anduin didn't even have the idea to send the Explorer's League as well. It's something that he thought of after his conversation with Magni multiple chapters later.

And Blizzard brushing Alliance aggression under the carpet is meaningless. Those events still happened and they still constitute an attack on the Horde. Besides, in their sloppy writing they actually indicated the Alliance and the Horde were already fighting each other in BtS. The factions needed a ceasefire to make even the Gathering happen, even though it was supposed to be a peaceful meeting of civilians on neutral ground. Ceasefire indicates conflict. Otherwise there'd be no fire to be ceased.




Not just before she even set foot there. Before Anduin even got the idea to send the Explorer's League to Silithus. Meanwhile Shaw informed Anduin that his own people are already working on getting more information on Azerite in chapter 1 or 2 (not to mention the fact that SI:7 had to get even that first sample somehow in the first place, meaning they were already in Silithus before the book even began).




Given how the SI:7's expedition to Silithus not only did not interact with the Explorer's League but weren't even mentioned in the latter's chapters at all (despite the fact that the book did in fact reiterate that the SI:7 was sent to Silithus long before the Explorer's League), the Explorer's League not knowing of SI:7's clashes with the Goblins is utterly immaterial.

You assume that SI:7 attacked Goblin miners when it's not confirmed on page. It happens in the game but we have no idea when the game happens in relation to the book if memory serves. Silithus is big and there's Azerite everywhere, getting some shards doesn't necessarily means they stabbed goblins (or that they didn't). The first recorded instance of violence by anyone, far as I remember, is the goblins attacking the Explorer's League, not that this all matters anyway since the war wasn't over Azerite in the first place and nobody even in the Horde actually cares about some goblins getting stabbed, certainly not their boss who wished to sell them all into slavery a few years before or the Warchief who orchestrated the entire conflict to kill as many people as possible. Which is why it's never mentioned, not some grand anti Horde conspiracy.

[formerShandalay]

You assume that SI:7 attacked Goblin miners when it's not confirmed on page. It happens in the game but we have no idea when the game happens in relation to the book if memory serves. Silithus is big and there's Azerite everywhere, getting some shards doesn't necessarily means they stabbed goblins (or that they didn't). The first recorded instance of violence by anyone, far as I remember, is the goblins attacking the Explorer's League, not that this all matters anyway since the war wasn't over Azerite in the first place and nobody even in the Horde actually cares about some goblins getting stabbed, certainly not their boss who wished to sell them all into slavery a few years before or the Warchief who orchestrated the entire conflict to kill as many people as possible. Which is why it's never mentioned, not some grand anti Horde conspiracy.

Even before the Explorer's League ever got there the Nightelves were trying to help Cenarion Hold or at least see if there were any survivors, but the Goblins were already there and drove them away. The Nightelves didn't want to fight them, so they just pulled their scouts back and later decided to support the Explorer's League.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Given how the SI:7's expedition to Silithus not only did not interact with the Explorer's League but weren't even mentioned in the latter's chapters at all (despite the fact that the book did in fact reiterate that the SI:7 was sent to Silithus long before the Explorer's League), the Explorer's League not knowing of SI:7's clashes with the Goblins is utterly immaterial.

the lack of any mention just leaves it even more up in the air as if were going off of just quest SI7 had a whole base that even khadgar knew about but for some reason the night elfs and the exploder's league didn't.

the two just don't mesh in any way. if i had to guess which guess work is all we really have, Si7 likely didn't have the base setup until after the league got ambushed as it would make sense for some one like khadgar to hear about abunch of explorers league members and night elfs being killed and then showing up to say he's done with any war.

[cparle87]

I very much doubt that, because it's literally the first Google result for "Sylvanas Wrathgate bfa"

https://blizzardwatch.com/2018/11/12...red-wrathgate/

Yeah, that's the "source" people keep posting, that I know Danseur disproved the very next day. I thought you meant a reliable source.

[Broken Fox]

It seemed like a good idea at the time

[Mehrunes]

That's not what Danuser is saying ib the interview at all. He says she was not the one to deploy it, but we already knew that before. That part never was in question.

Yeah, no. When asked if she gave the order he said they're not telling one way or another.

You assume that SI:7 attacked Goblin miners when it's not confirmed on page. It happens in the game but we have no idea when the game happens in relation to the book if memory serves. Silithus is big and there's Azerite everywhere, getting some shards doesn't necessarily means they stabbed goblins (or that they didn't). The first recorded instance of violence by anyone, far as I remember, is the goblins attacking the Explorer's League, not that this all matters anyway since the war wasn't over Azerite in the first place and nobody even in the Horde actually cares about some goblins getting stabbed, certainly not their boss who wished to sell them all into slavery a few years before or the Warchief who orchestrated the entire conflict to kill as many people as possible. Which is why it's never mentioned, not some grand anti Horde conspiracy.

It's confirmed on page that they were indeed sent to Silithus. Long before the Explorer's League. And, again, Shaw told Anduin that he already has people working on getting more information, before Anduin even ask (plus as I already said, he had to get the first sample and the information about Goblin operation somehow as well, meaning that the SI:7 was already active there before the book even began). So the claim that we have no idea when it happens in relation to the Explorer's League stuff is just wrong. So would the attack need its own confirmation when it happens in the game and isn't contradicted in any way by the book? The Goblin attack on the Explorer's League isn't confirmed in the game either, does that mean it didn't happen?

[Varodoc]

Given how Danuser himself disproved it practically the following day, I would say that it's all headcanon.



At least until there are (even) more retcons incoming

That quote does not say anywhere that Sylvanas was not responsible for the Wrathgate. In fact, it suggests the opposite. It opens up the possibility that perhaps it wasn't Putress who gave the final order to unleash the Blight on both the living and the dead. You might reply "Yeah, we know it was Varmimathras". Exactly, so why would Danuser keep the identity of the orchestrator so vague, to the point that he refuses to deny Sylvanas' involvement?

“There are interesting story threads behind the question of who was at fault,” Danuser says, suggesting that the ultimate order might not have come from Putress at all.

So, did Sylvanas give the order and engineer the Wrathgate?

“We’re not saying one way or another,” Danuser said.

Don't spread misinformation.

[Accendor]

Yeah, that's the "source" people keep posting, that I know Danseur disproved the very next day. I thought you meant a reliable source.

He never dispeoved it tho

[Soon-TM]

That quote does not say anywhere that Sylvanas was not responsible for the Wrathgate. In fact, it suggests the opposite. It opens up the possibility that perhaps it wasn't Putress who gave the final order to unleash the Blight on both the living and the dead. You might reply "Yeah, we know it was Varmimathras". Exactly, so why would Danuser keep the identity of the orchestrator so vague, to the point that he refuses to deny Sylvanas' involvement?



Don't spread misinformation.

"We aren't saying one way or the other", that's what Danuser said. Which is quite different from @Accendor 's "it is confirmed". L2Read.

Infracted.

[Varodoc]

"We aren't saying one way or the other", that's what Danuser said. Which is quite different from @Accendor 's "it is confirmed". L2Read.

And you said that Danuser disproved it, which he never did. In fact, he blatantly hinted that Sylvanas had a role to play in the incident. Otherwise, why wouldn't he just say "No, Sylvanas had nothing to do with the Wrathgate"? Why would he refuse to deny it? Let alone the fact that in that very source it's mentioned how Afrasiabi's statement was deliberate = intentional, thought-out, not random. There is a plan and thought behind that statement that Danuser's SUPERIOR made.

Did you even read your source haha? Because I had to explain it to you piece by piece.

[Feanoro]

And you said that Danuser disproved it, which he never did. In fact, he blatantly hinted that Sylvanas had a role to play in the incident. Otherwise, why wouldn't he just say "No, Sylvanas had nothing to do with the Wrathgate"? Why would he refuse to deny it? Let alone the fact that in that very source it's mentioned how Afrasiabi's statement was deliberate = intentional, thought-out, not random. There is a plan and thought behind that statement that Danuser's SUPERIOR made.

Did you even read your source haha? Because I had to explain it to you piece by piece.

They remind me of the old proverb, "There are none so blind as those who will not see."

[cparle87]

He never dispeoved it tho

Word of God saying we're not saying one way of the other does not equal yes. Are you one of those "everything Blizzard says is a lie and I won't believe them and insert my own reality instead" guys?

[Feanoro]

Word of God saying we're not saying one way of the other does not equal yes. Are you one of those "everything Blizzard says is a lie and I won't believe them and insert my own reality instead" guys?

You said yourself, the statement amounts to "we're not saying one way of the other". That also does not equal no. Therefore, the statement does not disprove, it renders the answer uncertain.

[cparle87]

You said yourself, the statement amounts to "we're not saying one way of the other". That also does not equal no. Therefore, the statement does not disprove, it renders the answer uncertain.

And yet there are people in this thread categorically saying that Word of God is that she was behind it and anyone who disagrees with that are idiots. When people can somehow turn "not yes or no" into "definitely yes they said yes you morons" then something is wrong.

[Jinnobi]

Wait, you mean the faction that has twice committed atrocities under dictators but only felt guilty after the dictator turned on them so they could use that person as a scapegoat to avoid punishment?

You mean the faction that actively usurped their corrupt leader, mostly because she was mean to their enemy?

Perspective is a funny thing. You've made your bias very obvious in your forum signature.

There is a long, long history of Alliance fanboys; both on this website and across the internet starting even before WoW beta was opened. The times have changed but the mentality has remained the same.
I'm not implying that there isn't Horde fanboys. On the contrary, there are plenty. But the odd reality is that Horde fanboys don't seem as viciously opposed to facts and reason as their counterparts -- this seems to apply even to regular "fans" that are not passionate to add the suffix -boy.

I don't know why exactly. I wish it weren't so.

[Feanoro]

the latest canon lore on the issue being Cata Forsaken intro where the omniscient narrator stated the Forsaken were falsely accused for the Wrathgate.

The latest canon lore is Chronicle vol. 3, which states Putress and Varimathras may have staged the Wrathgate, but the Lich Queen ordered the creation of the plague that made it possible. The Forsaken worked on it as one of their primary efforts from vanilla starting zones up until they had it "perfect" in Wrath.

- - - Updated - - -

But the odd reality is that Horde fanboys don't seem as viciously opposed to facts and reason as their counterparts

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Welcome to the lore forum. Stay, read awhile, and we'll see if you keep this opinion.