I don't get something about m+15 dropping lower gear than heroic raiding

[epigramx]

Wouldn't that make m+ extremely easy after you gear in heroic raiding? Do I miss something?

[Neuroticaine]

Wouldn't that make m+ extremely easy after you gear in heroic raiding? Do I miss something?

As opposed to making raiding easy by over gearing it with M15+ giving higher than heroic raid gear?

Besides, it's not so much the gear that matters with higher keys as it is executing mechanics. Gear will only carry you so much.

[Razion]

If one is lower than the other you would just use the other to out-gear the other.

People who prefer M+ would feel forced to raid to out-gear M+.
People who prefer raiding would feel forced to M+ to out-gear raids.

If they provide the same gear they can focus on their own activity. It would probably be better if the gear were comparable.

[Jonnusthegreat]

Raiding should be the highest gear possible - by a large amount. M+ doesn't have lockouts, so you can get a full set of the best gear day 1. It should be worse.

[Dartakan]

If one is lower than the other you would just use the other to out-gear the other.

People who prefer M+ would feel forced to raid to out-gear M+.
People who prefer raiding would feel forced to M+ to out-gear raids.

If they provide the same gear they can focus on their own activity. It would probably be better if the gear were comparable.

You have to take into consideration that there is no lockout for m+. Even if you full clear heroic, how many items do you expect to get? 3? While even with lower ilv m+ is a guarantee full set the moment they are out.

[Whitedragon]

Raiding should be the highest gear possible - by a large amount. M+ doesn't have lockouts, so you can get a full set of the best gear day 1. It should be worse.

But Mythic plus scales indefinitely Raiding dose not.

[Jonnusthegreat]

But Mythic plus scales indefinitely Raiding dose not.

That's fine. Raiding leaderboards are more important to the community than M+ leaderboards.

[loras]

Frankly mythic raiding should just drop heroic level gear as well. What would you need more power for? Ypu already beat the best.

[Whitedragon]

That's fine. Raiding leaderboards are more important to the community than M+ leaderboards.

According to who? That's a bold claim to make with zero evidence to back it up... Also as far as that goes, I would say nether really matter in the end. No one really cares past the world first race when it comes to whos doing what In raiding, likewise no one cares about anyone but the very top M+ runners and their best runs so...

[Jonnusthegreat]

According to who? That's a bold claim to make with zero evidence to back it up... Also as far as that goes, I would say nether really matter in the end. No one really cares past the world first race when it comes to whos doing what In raiding, likewise no one cares about anyone but the very top M+ runners and their best runs so...

Name the last time M+ leaderboards were posted on this website. Then name the last time raiding leaderboards were posted. Which is easier? Sources typically aren't needed for common sense facts.

[Razion]

You have to take into consideration that there is no lockout for m+. Even if you full clear heroic, how many items do you expect to get? 3? While even with lower ilv m+ is a guarantee full set the moment they are out.

It's kind of a catch 22 unless M+ had the same lockout system as raiding. And if it did, it would probably be a lot harder to PuG groups and at that point maybe the entire system falls apart due to how hard groups may be to get at that point.

[Xilurm]

Frankly mythic raiding should just drop heroic level gear as well. What would you need more power for? Ypu already beat the best.

To make it easier to clear said raid.

You might just wanna farm the mount for your guildies. Much easier with full Mythic gear.

[Whitedragon]

Name the last time M+ leaderboards were posted on this website. Then name the last time raiding leaderboards were posted. Which is easier? Sources typically aren't needed for common sense facts.

Honestly past the world first and the Mythic + invitationals I can't tell you either one, because both are pretty boring to look at for the common joe. As I said in the last post dose anyone really care after someone gets the first kill for raiding, and likewise dose anyone give a dang after the mythic dungeon invitational is over? Yes I can probably tell you who got world first and second in raiding, likewise I can probably tell you who was leading Mythic + during the event months ago but ask me anything now and it goes into the *shrug* folder...

Past that It really comes down to what people play and what has more representation, and on the note of this topic, it's one thing to have a lower I level then mythic, it's another to have a lower I level then heroic which absolutely no one cares about competitively....

[Jonnusthegreat]

Honestly past the world first and the Mythic + invitationals I can't tell you either one, because both are pretty boring to look at for the common joe. As I said in the last post dose anyone really care after someone gets the first kill for raiding, and likewise dose anyone give a dang after the mythic dungeon invitational is over? Yes I can probably tell you who got world first and second in raiding, likewise I can probably tell you who was leading Mythic + during the event months ago abut ask me anything now and it goes into the *shrug* folder...

Past that It really comes down to what people play and what has more representation, and on the note of this topic, it's one thing to have a lower I level then mythic, it's another to have a lower I level then heroic which absolutely no one cares about competitively....

The reason it's lower than heroic is so m+ doesn't affect the more popular endgame, raiding. In the past you had raiders gearing for raiding in M+. Now it will be the opposite. Which is good for raiders.

[Lucetia]

Raiding should be the highest gear possible - by a large amount. M+ doesn't have lockouts, so you can get a full set of the best gear day 1. It should be worse.

Raiding should not reward the highest gear possible. Multiple sources should reward the same highest ilvl. Gear shouldn't be restricted to one part of the game.

This is just bad thinking overall and is unhealthy for the game in the end.

[Jonnusthegreat]

Raiding should not reward the highest gear possible. Multiple sources should reward the same highest ilvl. Gear shouldn't be restricted to one part of the game.

This is just bad thinking overall and is unhealthy for the game in the end.

I think the same of your opinion. Intriguing.

[Lucetia]

Name the last time M+ leaderboards were posted on this website. Then name the last time raiding leaderboards were posted. Which is easier? Sources typically aren't needed for common sense facts.

That doesn't mean anything at all. Just because a leaderboard of one is posted doesn't mean anything. The reason being is that raiding leaderboards are static. Once you finish the raid it's just a matter of when you finished it. M+ is constantly changing on day by day basis. You also see articles written when people hit a new "high".

I think the same of your opinion. Intriguing.

Which is fine, but as we can see by the past it was unhealthy for the game and why things have evolved where they are now to where M+ is used. If raiding was so prevalent as you believe we would have kept the whole raid or die aspect that the past expansions have had.

[Jonnusthegreat]

That doesn't mean anything at all. Just because a leaderboard of one is posted doesn't mean anything. The reason being is that raiding leaderboards are static. Once you finish the raid it's just a matter of when you finished it. M+ is constantly changing on day by day basis. You also see articles written when people hit a new "high".

Popularity influences it. This is one data point that suggests raiding is the more important endgame. I cannot remember the last time M+ scores have been on the front page of this website. I can recall over 20 times raiding scores have been on the front page.

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Which is fine, but as we can see by the past it was unhealthy for the game and why things have evolved where they are now to where M+ is used. If raiding was so prevalent as you believe we would have kept the whole raid or die aspect that the past expansions have had.

We have also seen how M+ influencing raiding was unhealthy for the game and why things have evolved where they are now to where M+ does not reward high ilvl gear. Let's just disagree or we will be at this all day.

[Deferionus]

Raiding should not reward the highest gear possible. Multiple sources should reward the same highest ilvl. Gear shouldn't be restricted to one part of the game.

This is just bad thinking overall and is unhealthy for the game in the end.

I will take my last breath long after this game is closed believing PvP and PvE gear should be separate, with a PvP stat, and equal item level for each patch.

[exochaft]

Raiding should not reward the highest gear possible. Multiple sources should reward the same highest ilvl. Gear shouldn't be restricted to one part of the game.

This is just bad thinking overall and is unhealthy for the game in the end.

But both activities do reward the same ilvl gear, aside from the last two encounters in the mythic raid (which you'd be lucky to have even 1% of the WoW population ever killing). The great equalizer is the weekly Vault, as that's where you're going to get your max ilvl gear regardless of activity, assuming you do the proper difficulty levels.

The reason why this gear drop method makes sense is because M+ end-of-dungeon chests have no lockout at all, and you could endlessly farm them for loot. In BfA, that not only kills people's interest in mythic raiding, but it hurts heroic raiders, as well. If your motivations were power gains for your character, you had little to no reason to ever step foot into mythic raid, and barely any need to go into heroic raid aside from some niche gear slots potentially. Furthermore, the amount of time, effort, coordination to do the key levels required to get almost-mythic-raid-level gear was WAY lower than the effort required to even raid heroic in many cases, and it's not even close if we talk about mythic raiding. Simply put, M+ in BfA made raiding irrelevant not only for mythic raiders, but also heroic raiders.

In Shadowlands, M+ no longer makes raiding irrelevant to the vast majority of raiders, while simultaneously making M+ still rewarding if you choose to only do M+ via the weekly Vault. Instead of outgearing heroic raids in a week or two, M+ gearing from end-of-run chests is much slower... which it should be in comparison to a one-and-done weekly lockout of raids (especially since clearing a mythic raid doesn't even guarantee you personally get loot). The gearing paths should be much more comparable in the end. In some respects, the system still favors M+ more to some degree as I cannot stress how much more time/effort/coordination goes into mythic raiding compared to M+ when we're talking bare minimum max ilvl rewards. You may start having arguments with +30 keys, but the argument still fails as even keys at those levels are still puggable and require much less coordination than many mythic raid encounters..