Heroic dungeons are bloat

[Mojo03]

No reason for the tier to exist. It's redundant with normal.

They should remove it and make it Normal -> Mythic. Allow the ability to que for Mythic +0 and take with it the mechanics and difficulty.

LFG should remain for Mythic keystones.

What do you think?


Update:

Improvements offered by this -

- Ilvl scaling is less out of control by end of expansion.
- Base Mythic is queable.
- Will never need to repeat dungeons on two nearly identical difficulties to increase power and get to minimum requirements for mythic/raids.
- Less bloat = clearer and more efficient power progression.
- Dungeon difficulties are all fundamentally distinct now.

= Better overall experience.

+ Saves development time.

[Bloodyleech]

It's fine as it is for me, thanks.

[XDurionX]

To be honest, M+ has made any other dungeon difficulty redundant, since there are as many difficulties as you want.

[Zig Zug]

No reason for the tier to exist. It's redundant with normal.

They should remove it and make it Normal -> Mythic. Allow the ability to que for Mythic +0 and take with it the mechanics and difficulty.

LFG should remain for Mythic keystones.

What do you think?

100% Disagree.

The gap of power and skill required for normal to mythic is pretty substantial for the average player.

What value do players gain by removing a difficult level?

What justification is there to have a 30ilvl difference in gear between two points?

LFG exists for normal and heroic.

Group Finder is fine for mythics.

What's broken here, that you're fixing?

[Zergin8r]

Def prefer keeping heroics for a small boost in gear since I will never be able to do Mythics since it's pretty much impossible on my current connection.

[attias]

I've been thinking this for awhile.

They need to consolidate a LFD difficulty, Heroics currently feel like a really oddball step in between that doesn't hold any relevance after the initial gear grind and one that could easily be removed.

If I were to propose a change though, I think Heroic should take the current difficulty and format of Mythic 0 and Mythic 0 should be what Mythic+1 is now (roll M+ affixes out with the initial mythic difficulty basically).

[RoKPaNda]

It's fine as is tbh but if you're scrapping heroic you have to make M0 queuable or else the game is fucked.

[ablib]

I don’t understand the issue. Yesterday, I finally met the ilvl requirement to queue for heroics. I now am looking forward to that ilvl 171 gear. It will be a big boost from what my gear is currently.

Mythic-0 shouldnt be queueable. And I have no desire for non-queuable content. Sounds like the current system is fine.

[Mojo03]

100% Disagree.

The gap of power and skill required for normal to mythic is pretty substantial for the average player.

What value do players gain by removing a difficult level?

What justification is there to have a 30ilvl difference in gear between two points?

LFG exists for normal and heroic.

Group Finder is fine for mythics.

What's broken here, that you're fixing?

Heroic and normal are literally the same thing. With SLIGHTLY different tuning due to ilvl requirements.

Heroic does not need to exist. It's arbitrary.

- - - Updated - - -

I've been thinking this for awhile.

They need to consolidate a LFD difficulty, Heroics currently feel like a really oddball step in between that doesn't hold any relevance after the initial gear grind and one that could easily be removed.

If I were to propose a change though, I think Heroic should take the current difficulty and format of Mythic 0 and Mythic 0 should be what Mythic+1 is now (roll M+ affixes out with the initial mythic difficulty basically).

That's not a bad idea.

[Boricha]

I do think there is an issue with Normal and heroic becoming invalidated so quickly. It becomes even worse later in the expansion when players can get catch-up gear that is already better than those dungeons from the start. Logically, there's no need for them when we already have an infinitely scaling difficulty mode. It would need to be reworked though, as the gap between normal and m0 is too high to have the current m0 become the base difficulty.

[arkanon]

Heroic and normal are literally the same thing. With SLIGHTLY different tuning due to ilvl requirements.

So....they are different, but LITERALLY the same? What are you trying to say here?

If you are trying to say that a normal @ intended ilvl is not much different than a heroic @ intended ilvl, then things are working as intended, just like all other content.

[Twdft]

As with so many other pieces of content in WoW... just ignore it if you are not the target demografic.

Question as always is: what gets better if you remove heroic?

[Mojo03]

I do think there is an issue with Normal and heroic becoming invalidated so quickly. It becomes even worse later in the expansion when players can get catch-up gear that is already better than those dungeons from the start. Logically, there's no need for them when we already have an infinitely scaling difficulty mode. It would need to be reworked though, as the gap between normal and m0 is too high to have the current m0 become the base difficulty.

Well normal would become the base difficulty. Everything above normal would drop 13 ilvls in tuning to make up for the removal of the redundant heroic tier.

The difficulty from normal -> mythic would be the same as the heroic -> mythic, which with dropping everything 13 ilvls in tuning, is what it would be right now because they are essentially the same thing with different ilvl tuning.

Right now you run through dungeons, hit a certain ilvl, then move on to heroic. Then you do exactly the same thing for heroic until you get to mythic. Difference being in Mythic, the mechanics change and there is a lockout.

The heroic tier has no compelling reason to exist. You're literally just repeating the normal tier over again, with slightly higher ilvl tuning.

- - - Updated - - -

As with so many other pieces of content in WoW... just ignore it if you are not the target demografic.

Question as always is: what gets better if you remove heroic?

You can que for mythic +0.

Mythic keystones still require LFG.

[kranur]

No reason for the tier to exist. It's redundant with normal.

They should remove it and make it Normal -> Mythic. Allow the ability to que for Mythic +0 and take with it the mechanics and difficulty.

LFG should remain for Mythic keystones.

What do you think?

Agree, or turn nornal into heroic. Both normal and heroic don't make much sense as long as mythic also exists. It's just mindleslly spamming dungeons to hit ilvl as neither difficulty poses an actual challenge or something.

[kaelix1]

I have to agree with Op here (normal and heroic) is pretty much feel the same, personally, I would remove heroic and just do a normal--m0--m++ transition, especially when m0 can easy be done with 150 ilevel

[vsb]

Mythic should not exist as well. It should be dungeon difficulty 1 -> dungeon difficulty 2 -> ...

[Gorsameth]

Funny how the people in favor of removing lower difficulties are always high difficulty players who have no concept of how bad the average wow player is and what difficulty they play at.

If your pushing M+ or doing Mythic raids then Heroic Dungeons are not made for you, stop taking content away from others because you don't use it.
Or do you all agree that M+ and Mythic raids should be removed because 95% of players never touch them?

[xenogear3]

Anything more than 2 difficulty is too much.
I like what WotLK has.

5 man dungeon - normal and heroic.
raid - 10 man and 25 man.
The gear difference between them is 6 or 7 ilevel, not a full 13.

[Mojo03]

Funny how the people in favor of removing lower difficulties are always high difficulty players who have no concept of how bad the average wow player is and what difficulty they play at.

If your pushing M+ or doing Mythic raids then Heroic Dungeons are not made for you, stop taking content away from others because you don't use it.
Or do you all agree that M+ and Mythic raids should be removed because 95% of players never touch them?

Then they can do normal, which are essentially the same thing as heroic other than being tuned to a slightly different ilvl.

[Byleth]

While I agree that the dungeon tier system is a bit bloated - It works, so why fix it if it's not broken?