As I feared a few minutes after Covenants were announced....it will get worse

[qwerty123456]

99% of the data on wowhead is what I would expect from people doing it for the transmogs except for:

Restoration Shaman- Necrolord
Holy Priest- Necrolord
Brewmaster Monk- Secondplace being Necrolord.
Fire Mage - Night Fae (not sure what best appearance wise would be maybe Kyrian/Venthyr)
Feral Druid - Third place being Necrolord. Venthyr has a better leather set unless you are undead and undead cant be druids.


It would be interesting to see what races picked what covenant because I feel like Necrolord works good for undead and DK's but not many other races/classes.

[Jonnusthegreat]

No it would show that 100% of DKs logged out while in a blood spec but the data for the M+ figures would show what spec was used when the last boss in the dungeon was used because it calculates/pulls that data from the Blizzard site/data for the leaderboards which logs the class and spec used for those timed & saved runs. I think you're failing to see that. If your brewmaster MONK ran a M+ Plaguefall it would register it on the site as your brewmaster MONK running it and add to the numbers listed for brewmaster while if your misteweaver MONK (which happens to be the same monk who was a brewmaster in Plaguefall but using a different spec) ran Mythic Theater of Pain it would be registered as a mistweaver MONK in those data. I don't understand how you don't get this.

So if there was any data about M+ then it would mean something. Since this info is logout based, it's meaningless.

Once there is more than 0 data points about M+ we can find out what percentage of M+ monks chose those covenants. Cool. Guess we will ignore all the players that don't play M+ in this data. That's fine, I guess. I just don't like claiming things based off of inaccurate research methods, but I guess you do and "don't understand" why I care about it.

EDIT: To be clear - you are saying things like "the data WOULD..." but wowhead is saying "the data IS..." That's a problem, since logout data is bad data.

[rhorle]

But my character is only in ONE of those data points. That's what flaws the data. If every single death knight logged out as blood, this website would assert that there are zero frost and zero unholy deathknights playing the game. That is demonstrably false.

But the data isn't about 100% played because it pulls from the armory and other sources that already have that risk built in. Yes it means that exact numbers for spec breakdown can change some but with a large enough sample size it should be low enough to still get some meaningful results.

[TEHPALLYTANK]

So if there was any data about M+ then it would mean something. Since this info is logout based, it's meaningless.

Once there is more than 0 data points about M+ we can find out what percentage of M+ monks chose those covenants. Cool. Guess we will ignore all the players that don't play M+ in this data. That's fine, I guess. I just don't like claiming things based off of inaccurate research methods, but I guess you do and "don't understand" why I care about it.

EDIT: To be clear - you are saying things like "the data WOULD..." but wowhead is saying "the data IS..." That's a problem, since logout data is bad data.

The data isn't bad then, because you're logging out in a spec you play. For the data to be bad that would require people to log out specifically in a spec that they don't play.

The data is incomplete, not "bad".

[Utrrabbit]

OP is right, I have to admit. The problem isn't that you can pick anything you want, the problem is that most people are picking the meta, so in the end, the covenant system is just another form of cookie-cutter build which I understand Blizzard does not find engaging, judging by the state of talents.

You can be outside of it this time, but it is difficult to pretend it doesn't exist, considering some of those specs are approaching 90% compliance to the meta in that spec. Apparently the player base didn't get the memo.

Actually its the opposite numbers are showing most are picking covenants based on aestetics and not numbers.

[Zenfoldor]

Actually its the opposite numbers are showing most are picking covenants based on aestetics and not numbers.

Interesting. I was basing my supposition around the correlation between the numbers posted in the OP and the BIS covenant ranks as currently listed on icy-veins. What are you basing your supposition on? Perhaps there is no correlation, perhaps the base numbers in the OP are wrong, or perhaps there is a correlation, but instead it furthers your supposition instead of mine. I'd be very interested to find out.

As you can probably tell, I took very little time to come to my conclusion, so I'd be very interested if it is actually wrong.

[Sagenod]

You know, this comment is kind of funny after reading your signature and checking out that thread about that imaginary wow race.

World of Warcraft affects me in a positive way by giving me the desire to create fan content. It's a source of inspiration for me, personally.

World od Warcraft seems to affect some others in a negative way, like OP who seems to still be angry about the covenants and the miniscule performance differences between them.

Funny how you compared two different approaches to fandom in the manner you did!

[Jonnusthegreat]

But the data isn't about 100% played because it pulls from the armory and other sources that already have that risk built in. Yes it means that exact numbers for spec breakdown can change some but with a large enough sample size it should be low enough to still get some meaningful results.

I don't know... I almost always log out in windwalker, but that hasn't been my main spec since MoP. I'm wondering how many other people are like this. If I'm a heal spec, I am never in heal spec unless I'm doing instanced content.

- - - Updated - - -

The data isn't bad then, because you're logging out in a spec you play. For the data to be bad that would require people to log out specifically in a spec that they don't play.

The data is incomplete, not "bad".

It's false data. I log out in windwalker spec most days, but that is certainly not my main spec. That means it's wrong for at least one player.

[Lei]

World of Warcraft affects me in a positive way by giving me the desire to create fan content. It's a source of inspiration for me, personally.

World od Warcraft seems to affect some others in a negative way, like OP who seems to still be angry about the covenants and the miniscule performance differences between them.

Funny how you compared two different approaches to fandom in the manner you did!

Both comes from passion. To me for example, what you are doing with the imaginary race thing is a complete waste of time. For you, it means a lot obviously. Similarly, people who enjoy their char and the competitive side of the game, this can fuck their enjoyment up. When someone says to someone else to quit the game always rubs me in the wrong way for this reason.

[Gref]

say whatever you want to op but I already saw people asking for venthry for m+.
absolutely correct, if you want to do sanguine halls, depths if you do not have anybody that is venthry sorry but you are gimping yourself.
someones has to be absolutely venthry. Especially at the sanguine depts, if you are not having a venthry in your party and missing that stacking dps buff, you are playing it wrong. That anima canister before the last boss is absolutely necessary if you are going over m+10

so, so much for your meaningful choice, bring your friend etc. I cannot imagine a single party doing that without a venthry on m+5 and above levels.

[gaymer77]

So if there was any data about M+ then it would mean something. Since this info is logout based, it's meaningless.

Once there is more than 0 data points about M+ we can find out what percentage of M+ monks chose those covenants. Cool. Guess we will ignore all the players that don't play M+ in this data. That's fine, I guess. I just don't like claiming things based off of inaccurate research methods, but I guess you do and "don't understand" why I care about it.

EDIT: To be clear - you are saying things like "the data WOULD..." but wowhead is saying "the data IS..." That's a problem, since logout data is bad data.

Since you're failing to understand the concept I made a graphic for you that's color coded and notated for better understanding of how this site uses its data. For mythic+ data it pulls data that was captured by Blizzard, posted on Blizzard sites, and puts them all there for anyone to view in one convienent place. Since mythic+ infomation is saved within Blizzard due to the fact that it has a lockout and saves previous lockouts to prove you've completed such & such mythic+ (achiievements + leaderboard data) at such & such key (achievements + leaderboard data) and you are ranked based on the leaderboard ratings (something you can view from Blizzard itself), raider IO simply pulls that already established data for viewing in one place. Notice how not only does this info graphic show the name of the dungeon, but it also shows what key it was, what affixes he has ran (again information that is saved by Blizzard each time you run a mythic), the time it took to complete, his ranking in the world for that score, his ranking in his region for the score (score being something determined internally by Blizzard the second the mythic is completed), and what spec he was when the mythic completed (which is more than likely what spec he ran the entire time of the mythic because I'm not aware of being able to switch specs mid-run). As you can see from the information of the OP's own character, he never ran any mythic as a holy paladin because he has no data as that. You can also see that based on the info graphic that he never ran Mechagon mythic.

As for your insistence that the data is false, bad, wrong, or anything else you call it....the data as it reflects what spec chose what covenant is based on armory data that is saved when you log out of the game. Your claim that you "never play windwalker" yet you are logged out in the windwalker spec just proves your claim is invalid because you don't suddenly get put into a spec while you are offline and therefore it shows up on armory that you are a spec you "never play". No, instead you CHOSE to log out in that spec and manually selected to be that spec therefore it shows you played that spec which is the truth. Regardless of what spec you "play most" is irrelevant because the data pulled from armory shows what you last logged out in.

As for the semantics of the wording you chose, raider IO pulling data from armory to show what specs chose what covenants, the term you are fishing for is "misuse of statistics" or a "statistical fallacy". Misuse of statistics is a statistical argument (such as which spec chose which covenant in this case) claims a falsehood (which would be that the numbers are wrong about which spec chose which covenant). When you try to use the statistics in a misleading or wrong fashion (as to say instead of the majority of windwalker monks chose such & such covenant they say instead that another covenant was chosen). Neither of these situations apply here as raider IO is not making claims that are incorrect based on the data obtained by "official Blizzard data" nor is the data itself wrong because in the end, that person who is playing a monk and chose whatever covenant chose to log out of the game under that spec therefore the player does play that spec (even if only to walk around Org or SW doing RP and nothing else under that spec of the class).

You should really read the paper by John Gardenier & David Resnik titled "The Misuse of Statistics: Concepts, Tools, and a Research Agenda". One of the things about statistics (which this is what the raider IO is all about is statistical data being presented) is that the provisional conclusions have errors and error rates and commonly 5% of the provisional conclusions of significance testing are wrong.

[Xath]

Then you haven't raided at that level. Simple as that, to take top 10 you actually have to play a lot because lack of dps caused by shit gear, will hit a real wall.
Raiding couple days a week is already not even close to that level.'

Also don't pull numbers out of your ass because its not 500dps. At least not for vast majority of classes. And still mechanical skill is more important.
I would take mechanical god with wrongest covenant over normal player with best covenant all day any day. Any competent RL would tell you the same.
And no, people don't have the same skill, there is no such thing as two people with same amount of skill and different covenant.

Reading comprehension is hard I have raided at that level I don't anymore because of the time commitment I still get ce fairly quickly especially for only raiding 3 days a week but I am raiding at a video level now.

- - - Updated - - -

Yeah, no. Even if the entire raid has the """wrong""" covenant, it still won't be anywhere near the difference between "one-shot kill and 4+ hours of wiping" on a boss.

A one shot kill no but several hours of a low percentage wipes absolutely possible.

[kiramon]

99% of the data on wowhead is what I would expect from people doing it for the transmogs except for:

Restoration Shaman- Necrolord
Holy Priest- Necrolord
Brewmaster Monk- Secondplace being Necrolord.
Fire Mage - Night Fae (not sure what best appearance wise would be maybe Kyrian/Venthyr)
Feral Druid - Third place being Necrolord. Venthyr has a better leather set unless you are undead and undead cant be druids.


It would be interesting to see what races picked what covenant because I feel like Necrolord works good for undead and DK's but not many other races/classes.

This is how I felt - am I supposed to be surprised that Paladins, champions of the light, are choosing Kyrian and their angel aesthetic?

There are only a few that go against their class-aesthetic. So if you have 1. Strong Choice + 2. Thematic Choice, makes sense we'd see a lot pick them.

[Domixux]

say whatever you want to op but I already saw people asking for venthry for m+.
absolutely correct, if you want to do sanguine halls, depths if you do not have anybody that is venthry sorry but you are gimping yourself.
someones has to be absolutely venthry. Especially at the sanguine depts, if you are not having a venthry in your party and missing that stacking dps buff, you are playing it wrong. That anima canister before the last boss is absolutely necessary if you are going over m+10

so, so much for your meaningful choice, bring your friend etc. I cannot imagine a single party doing that without a venthry on m+5 and above levels.

So your argument is that 1 out of 5 people has to have one of the four covenants? Sure this destroys the meaningful choice for the whole playerbase.

[Ielenia]

A one shot kill no but several hours of a low percentage wipes absolutely possible.

Except that is not what the OP said:

this is easily the difference between an easy kill or struggling for 4+ hours.

[Mattzo82]

I don't know about other classes but for rogues the difference between covenants is night an day. Its not even about performance, its about having cool skills that do damage or crap skills that tick every 3 seconds for nothing or give you haste after a kill when you might not even need it anymore. On top of that I think the secondary skills are totally unbalanced as well for example the night fae movement is miles ahead of the venthyr movement ability, it's ridiculous.

[kaminaris]

Reading comprehension is hard I have raided at that level I don't anymore because of the time commitment I still get ce fairly quickly especially for only raiding 3 days a week but I am raiding at a video level now.

Dude what are you even on about? Are you seriously trying to say that you got CE first week or two? Because otherwise its not the same level.

[Krakan]

Dude what are you even on about? Are you seriously trying to say that you got CE first week or two? Because otherwise its not the same level.

Do you have any knowledge of actual mythic raiding or are you one of those that think limit only uses one lock out.

[kaminaris]

Do you have any knowledge of actual mythic raiding or are you one of those that think limit only uses one lock out.

Definitely more than you since i usually watch world first races and got most CE since panda myself. Yes they usually take 1-2 lockouts since mythic opens up.

NH - ~12 days
TOS - ~20 days
Antorus - ~7days
Uldir - ~8days
BoD - 6days
EP - 11days

[Krakan]

Definitely more than you since i usually watch world first races and got most CE since panda myself. Yes they usually take 1-2 lockouts since mythic opens up.

NH - ~12 days
TOS - ~20 days
Antorus - ~7days
Uldir - ~8days
BoD - 6days
EP - 11days

So hold up a second here... getting ce doesn't mean much I've had it for 14 years now if you count before achievements I've only missed part of wrath.

You are also listing tiers cleared via split runs where the guilds in quest had technically 4-5 weeks worth of lockouts of loot in the first clear.

I agree being in the top ten often just means you are an above average raider with excessive amounts of time but to suggest covenants are not a big deal when even on the low end your looking at 10% damage difference seems disingenuous.

Take last tier can marksmen hunters kill mythic znoth? Yes if the entire group carries them. Can a mm hunter contribute in any meaningful way at all in the fight in terms of pulling his own weight? No of course not.

It's the same for this tier. Sure on paper you can do whatever you want so long as the group carrying you doesn't but your going to be very hard pressed to find a group willing to take you without offering millions of gold for a carry.