Covenants arent that bad as you think

[chiddie]

Honestly, after two months of being Necro as casual M+ resto shaman player, I can say that unless you constantly do high level content, one cov is just like another. I barely use Fleshcraft, a little more primordial wave but I can’t say it’s mandatory, meaning I won’t save runs because of it and I won’t fail runs because I don’t have it (or don’t use it).

Maybe for other classes or specs is different but for me as of now “the right cov” has proven to be way less mandatory than I thought two months ago.

[rogueMatthias]

I'm not a min-maxer so can't say it has a huge impact on my gameplay - Just gives me different questing routes for alts. It does annoy me that transmog sets are all stuck behind them though.

I will say that the soulbinds not being spec-specific is an easily avoidable dumb idea though.

[rrayy]

There are two issues with covenants:

1) The design would be infinitely better if they did not tie the covenant abilities to the covenant. My case I wanted to be Necrolord but decided to raid so had to switch Kyrian. Since then some old friends have started to play again and the only viable covenant for arena is Night Fae. We were all 2700+ in arenas together when we last played and would like to get 2400 for the gladiator mount so unfortunately the covenant spells is actually a big difference.

You in no way had to switch. Being a necrolord doesn't prevent you from completing content. That is a you problem and not a game problem and you were not forced to do anything.

[Santas]

Did they actually ever promised it will be balanced for all content?

Ion's words, he said that the differences will be so tiny that it won't matter. Thing is, it does, a lot. Anyone saying that they don't matter, they are ignorant. You can't tell me that there's any other options in PvP for DK's other than Abomination Limb, or a real alternative for warlocks other than Night Fae.. and the list goes on.

[Valette]

I'm sorry, you think an ability that increases insanity generation slightly for a while and does fuck all is fun? Compared to ascension? Over 10k instant crits in pvp + 10k heal + 50% sprint? But heyyyyy they sim equally, NO PROBLEM AT ALL LOL.

Yes problem, boi, people are not picking the covenant because ability is shit. That's the whole point - no amount of number tuning will change the fact that some covenants are shit and will be shit for WHOLE EXPANSION.

Jesus, the fuck is wrong with you people and your "numbers" mentality?

Yes I think an ability that gives me more voidforms is a lot more fun than ascension that I find super clunky and unfun to use. Almost like people like different things

[rrayy]

So your definition of a good player is completely different to mine, there's no point in this.

"Evolving forward" is buzzword garbage. Blizzard makes plenty of mistakes. That's why they need to later change those things to fix them. There not being a perfect system doesn't mean mistakes aren't possible. When they get feedback saying something is bad, they do it anyway, then later they fix it, they made a mistake. Them fixing it means they agree it was a mistake.

Nope. They are always looking to improve. Making changes does not mean the previous iteration was a mistake in any way. Mistake implies they never should have done it in the first place. They don't have an issue with the way they did it, they just feel they can do even better.

And yes, that first iteration could very well be bad and full of mistakes. That's why they need more iterations to improve it, to get rid of (some of) those mistakes and bad decisions. The problem is that they're extremely bad at iterating before things go live, which is why we repeatedly have broken systems go live even with tons of good feedback telling them what's wrong and how to make it better. Then months or years later, during which time the flawed system has been live, they finally fix those issues that were pointed out to them before it even went live. Letting it go live like that and taking so long to fix it are both mistakes. They're not "evolving forward" or whatever bullshit buzzword you want to come up with next, they're just mistakes.

So again you use the "I am right, and Blizzard is lying" argument. Everything you stated is opinion, not fact and it is based solely on whether you like it or not. They are "evolving forward" no matter how many time s you declare yourself right because you have no other argument.

As a concrete example, take Legion legendaries. There was no need to go live with untargetable, completely RNG, softcapped legendaries. They could've skipped that entire live iteration by just listening to feedback. That was a mistake. They then repeated most of that mistake with azerite. Clearly they didn't "evolve forward" there, considering they repeated the same thing that they supposedly figured out was bad.

Nope. You think there was no need. They disagree with you. Further, feedback doesn't = they have to go with everything you say every single time. You thinking something is bad doesn't make it fact. There are also people who were fine with it and like it. Basically what you are saying is "my opinion is valid and anyone who disagrees with me is wrong" That is what every "argument" have made biols down to.

No need to debate further as you are just going to continue to declare yourself right by declaring your opinion fact.

- - - Updated - - -

Ion's words, he said that the differences will be so tiny that it won't matter. Thing is, it does, a lot. Anyone saying that they don't matter, they are ignorant. You can't tell me that there's any other options in PvP for DK's other than Abomination Limb, or a real alternative for warlocks other than Night Fae.. and the list goes on.

NO they don't. The variance is only ~2%. That is nowhere close to "a lot".

- - - Updated - - -

this has been proven several times. For almost all classes there is a top coven with like 50-75% player representation. And the others are down to 20 and all the way down to 1.8! And thats obviously like that because they are super balanced and not 1 coven are significantly stronger then the others right ? /s

No it hasn't. All you have proven is that players cannot think for themselves and will pick what ever they are told is the best convenant even where there is very little difference at all. Player representation does njot = best covenant. It just shows player laziness.

[Makabreska]

NO they don't. The variance is only ~2%. That is nowhere close to "a lot".

Let's be real here. There are some outliers with substitutional difference. But that was really to be expected and is subject of fix.

[rrayy]

Let's be real here. There are some outliers with substitutional difference. But that was really to be expected and is subject of fix.

Sure. I never said it was perfect. But to say you can only play one covenant and the other 3 are trash is nonsense

[Santas]

NO they don't. The variance is only ~2%. That is nowhere close to "a lot".

Are you for real? The difference in many cases is much more than 2%, especially when it comes to AoE VS. Single Target. Also, are you forgetting PvP?

[Cthulhu fhtagn]

Well, let Blizz suddenly do Cov balancing and witness the outrage from the player base, feeling forced to quickly swap and grind Renown. Because of no balancing after launch, it was clear early on which Cov will perform best in any given situation, so a little research and you are good to go. And they said they will balance it when releasing content patches.

They did say that they would balance them in patches apart from "big outliers". Some would say 10% overall damage difference is a big outlier, some would not. Overall the communication from their side has gone quiet which is weird after how good it was (compared to previous expansions) during the beta.

[Toybox]

They did say that they would balance them in patches apart from "big outliers". Some would say 10% overall damage difference is a big outlier, some would not. Overall the communication from their side has gone quiet which is weird after how good it was (compared to previous expansions) during the beta.

10% is pretty damn significant, especially when it's 10% on top of being more effective when needed the most.

[ActuaryBro]

I play a resto druid in pvp and use necrolord which gives a 25sec cd hot/dot. If I want to switch specs and play feral with a healing friend then I basically am playing without a covenant ability. I think this is a problem with the covenant design.

[Katchii]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...s&difficulty=4
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...info=Covenants
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...info=Covenants
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...info=Covenants
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...info=Covenants
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...info=Covenants
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...info=Covenants
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...info=Covenants
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...info=Covenants
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...info=Covenants
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...info=Covenants
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...info=Covenants
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...info=Covenants
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...info=Covenants
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...info=Covenants
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...info=Covenants

Hey, NF priest, highest covenant in sims AND warcraft logs has whopping 8.5% popularity - https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...s&difficulty=4

Hey.

Hey.

Subjective my fucking ass, are you really too stupid to see that NF priest ability is shit? It's the best in numbers and still only minority picks it (even in fucking mythic raids, where it's twice as popular as in normal, STILL A MINORITY). Subjective he says lol.

You're banned, unsurprisingly, but you obviously didn't read my post either. I said the numbers were the objective part and that fun was subjective. Take a breath and make sure you comprehend what you're reading before you respond like this and get yourself banned...again.

[Defend]

I get the “just play what you like” crowd but for people like me; I’m on a mythic raid team, and I want to be the best I can possibly be as all my friends on the team are doing all they can to be their best. but that requires me to pick a covenant that isn’t my preferred one. And I get the same things like “your friends shouldn’t Make you pick the best one” and that’s easily thrown out as you Wouldnt be on a sports team and be like, eh I’m not gonna give it my all today I’d rather relax and take it easy so I’ll let this guy get past me. I want to be the best I can to help my team. Then there’s “You DONT have to be mythic raiding world that’s the game you chose to play.” Sure, I guess, but why should I have to choose between doing content I enjoy and having the role play experience I enjoy? Am I only allowed to have one? It’s a video game, that’s like saying I have to choose between doing mythic plus or raiding, I can’t do both; I should be able to have the experience I enjoy. It also just feels bad to know you’re not at your full power if you’re in the “wrong” covenant.

[razorpax]

The system is still garbage no matter how much they nerfed it to not matter

My monk is kyrian because the soul bind and the ability
I’m a raider
It’s my best choice
Pelagos is my best soul bind

My preference was venthyr but the dps difference was too massive
The mission table is extremely unbalanced And weak for kyrian

I could totally go venthyr but I play group content and enjoy the ability that isn’t fire and forget with rng

There are other specs that have it worse just look at the list of current covenant populations

[Narzok]

The system is still garbage no matter how much they nerfed it to not matter

My monk is kyrian because the soul bind and the ability
I’m a raider
It’s my best choice
Pelagos is my best soul bind

My preference was venthyr but the dps difference was too massive
The mission table is extremely unbalanced And weak for kyrian

I could totally go venthyr but I play group content and enjoy the ability that isn’t fire and forget with rng

There are other specs that have it worse just look at the list of current covenant populations

on that topic, did they forget to adjust the CD on the Venthyr ability after nerfing it to the ground?
it is still at 3 min and does not reset on a new torghast layer.

i feel like a big problem with covenants is that some are played by almost no one (Venthyr monks are less than 5% according to wowranks.io), so the priority in balancing them are low.
why waste time on something that only 4% of the least played class use, when you could put effort into something that over 80% of the most played classes use (night fae druids)

according to wowranks.io, there are more active night fae druids than there are active monks in total.

[razorpax]

on that topic, did they forget to adjust the CD on the Venthyr ability after nerfing it to the ground?
it is still at 3 min and does not reset on a new torghast layer.

i feel like a big problem with covenants is that some are played by almost no one (Venthyr monks are less than 5% according to wowranks.io), so the priority in balancing them are low.
why waste time on something that only 4% of the least played class use, when you could put effort into something that over 80% of the most played classes use (night fae druids)

according to wowranks.io, there are more active night fae druids than there are active monks in total.

Probably because monks are generally middle of the pack overall minus tanks (WW is strong right now but it’s always strong early) and night fae is broken in some fights

The Venthyr ability is also weird because of the rng monk summons and the fact it scales with mastery

Balancing that against a CD that is 0% rng and a 40% mastery boost which also speeds up your rotation and is strong for all specs is impossible unless you just make the dps amazing and increase the dps monk spawns

[Alkizon]

And I, perhaps, will remain with my formulation:
they are inappropriate because they violate design rules, main hierarchy of progress - private progress of expansion is trying to capture, and not unsuccessfully, place which is controlled/assigned/subordinated to class' element, thereby causing conflict of priorities; this is direct question of subordination and dependence in resolving conflicts, very simple and pertinent requirement, especially in matters of balance and unique+distinctive class mechanics.

Quotes regarding similar design elements:

racial part goes cross-classes (bonuses, base animations), class' (abilities and mechanics) part goes cross-specs (build = talents), talents' part goes cross-roles, since last one is mostly controlled by “momentary choice”: priority of abilities, used gear and other temporary "progress" stuff

General requirement| they won't need to be unlocked or part of class' talents/mechanics (key part of build, only reinforce/strengthen it, even less significant, more general non-specific), but can be stackable/replaced and be part of professions/RPG-customization system (can exist/functioning outside of any items/locations/reputations), mathematical part of engine, otherwise they will spoil progress/balance system, class' fantasy and provoke more and more "unrecorded results".

If being permanent, they should end with being in class; if being difficult to change, they should not give significant abilities, but only passive and be in the field of talents (that is, they should remain outside choice of reputation of local races, for both from above); if they're “external” then shouldn't go beyond “influence” of characteristics (= gear) and be quick and easy to switch.

[Squigglyo]

Can you use another Covenants transmog even if you unlocked it on that character? I want to say no but I'm not sure

Achievements and points are hidden, however they are trackable when in another covenant.
Half the mounts and pets are cross-covenant.
Most of the transmog is not.

Doing it all one one character or not, its still a massive pain in the ass to unlock even just the base upgrades, let alone all the 'optional' stuff.

I mean, same thing happened in Legion. Wanted to witness class campaigns? Go do them on each class character. Such is a life of completionists.

Completing the campaigns was nowhere near the amount of work and effort getting everything from a covenant is.
I could complete the campaign on every single class, unlocking everything along the way, while it was current and still not match the time needed to get everything done in just ONE covenant.
The only thing order halls had was a very loosely time gated story and one or two things bought with resources. Its not even comparable.

[Swnem]

Oh boy are you wrong...

If you were going for an "i told you so" you failed spectacularly. The differences are massive.

Go play druid without convoke, go play hunter without spirits. You will be the laughing stock.