Would you support Sylvanas Windrunner if you still had the choice?

[Chromeshellking]

I cannot in good faith support someone who loathes the thing that turned her into what she is now and making the choice to do the same to others.

I am by no means goodie too shoes, but im not someone who stands by and watches corruption grow and fester. Both in IRL and in game. It has cost me as well in both and im not going to regret it for speaking up.

[deenman]

It honestly depends on what her end goal is (which still isn't established). The Shadowlands' system is pretty messed up no matter how you look at it and doesn't justify why it is set up as it is (unless you consider the figures in control directly benefiting and everyone should enjoy the benefit of getting screwed over to give them more Anima juice and serving them for eternity until they get wiped from existence) so it would be dependent on if she actually intends to change the system for the better or she is just going along with the Jailer who may reveal he just intends to destroy everything. I mean it's pretty clear why you wouldn't support her in the latter scenario.

there is no end goal that justifies burning innocent kids alive,anyone who votes yes unironicaly is a serious psychopath

[Chromeshellking]

there is no end goal that justifies burning innocent kids alive,anyone who votes yes unironicaly is a serious psychopath

wish I could upvote that.

[Biomega]

Shipping them off or giving them land weren't viable options either since you pretty much needed to look after them just to keep them surviving.

That's my point, though. This was an OPTION - it wasn't easy, it wasn't convenient, but it was there. It could have been tried. It MIGHT have failed. But it didn't HAVE to fail. They made the choice not to consider this as a real alternative; but it was there. And to now go on about how "there were only two options" is completely disingenuous and mostly serves exculpatory function, i.e. the whole "yes it was wrong but we didn't have a choice" thing.

Where this differs from the situation with Sylvanas is that we have do not have the benefit of information with her. We don't KNOW what the choices COULD be, because we don't (yet) know the circumstances. It's easy to say "she could have just not burnt down Teldrassil" when we have no idea what it was even about. The entire reasoning we have right now is "she's working with the Jailer" but we have no idea what the end goal is, why Sylvanas is doing it, what her own plans are as opposed to the Jailer's, and how alternative options play into all of this.

Maybe it'll turn out she had a choice, and let her hatred for the Alliance get the better of her. Maybe it'll turn out that the choice was burn down Teldrassil or eradicate the entire Night Elf race, and she chose the lesser of two evils. WE DON'T KNOW. Until we do, I personally choose to reserve judgement, because those actions cannot be judged in a vacuum.

[Darknessvamp]

there is no end goal that justifies burning innocent kids alive,anyone who votes yes unironicaly is a serious psychopath

You can't seriously say that after how many times we've been tasked with "dealing with" the kids and young of other sentient creatures to the benefit of our factions. Heck the Tortollans from the last expansion literally make the argument it's fine if it ensures balance.

[Sagenod]

The Draenei brought the legion to draenor

Ill give an Edge to Arthas, but people better stop pining Garrosh on the horde

Garithos was the leader in Lordaeron and a part of the alliance of Lordaeron which included Stormwind, Gnomeregan and Khazmodan. They were just renamed later. Hence why the PvP icon is still the Lordaeron shield and why skybreakers have Lordaeron crests on them

Yes and we did not support them. We supported the rebellion, Thalyssra, not elisandre

I want to blight them because they never pay for their crimes. Greymane attenmpted to kill Sylvanas and all he got was a slap on the wrist

Sylvanas was the only one who wouldnt take bullshit and thats why I would remain by her side if I was given the chance. But no we have to side with can do no wrong Baine thatd rather deliever the horde to the alliance on a silver platter

The Draenei were on Draenor for hundreds of years before they ever joined the Alliance.

They both betrayed Azeroth, but Arthas was certainly more evil.

Taken from here: "He was the highest-ranking survivor of Lordaeron's military after the Scourge's rampage across Lordaeron, and he recruited what forces he could muster from both volunteers and conscripted civilians. Cut off from the chain of command, Garithos gave his human army the mission that he assumed the Alliance should have always had: the preservation of humanity above all else. Ignorant of Garithos' policies, officials from neighboring non-human states such as Ironforge sent him aid, recognizing him as potentially the last remnant of Lordaeron's government, and certainly the strongest warlord in the area."

She killed his son, he swore vengeance. And he was right for attacking her in Stormheim, she was going to enslave the leader of the Valarjar Val'kyr, which would have caused problems with Odyn, who was instrumental to defeating Helya, who has been causing problems since as far back as Wrath. Why even should Genn be punished for this?

[cparle87]

Yes

Too bad everyone is so obssessed with everyone being goodie two shoes so we can never be evil ourselves. Like its a video game who tf cares about honor, I want to blight some towns and kill alliance all day long. Why I play a always pick imperial in swtor

Or y'know having the alliance pay for what they've done to the horde throughout the years. Destroying Draenor, Destroying Lordaeron, having garithos try to cull the remanining blood elves, Theramore and the explorers league fucking over the tauren, Opening fire upon goblin vessels because why not, massacre on vulpera and telling the nightborne to go f themselves

Gotta love dualism. There's plague slinging omnicidal maniacs and goodie goodies.

[huth]

That's my point, though. This was an OPTION - it wasn't easy, it wasn't convenient, but it was there. It could have been tried. It MIGHT have failed. But it didn't HAVE to fail.

It would have failed. The Orcs were, known to the Alliance, incapable of caring for themselves adequately. Sending them off to elsewhere would just have been condemning them to death. This isn't even a seperate option from "kill them", just a specific way of doing it.

You're not actually giving any arguments for why that path should be chosen, either. Yes, it is an option. But so is sewing your mouth shut, or stapling your hand to the table. Would you consider those options under normal circumstances? I definitely wouldn't, mostly because they wouldn't achieve anything meaningful.
Something being an option does not mean that it is worthy of consideration, just that it is possible.

And your arguments for Sylvanas suffer from the same issue. Is it theoretically possible there might be a good reason? Maybe. Is it even remotely likely? Not a chance in hell. You're irrationally treating all options as equally valid.

[Souflikar]

Nope wouldn’t follow her. In fact, I don’t really care what happens with her. However, no one should be allowed to follow her for several more years because after 3 expansions, I think she should just fade away for a long time.

[Biomega]

It would have failed. The Orcs were, known to the Alliance, incapable of caring for themselves adequately. Sending them off to elsewhere would just have been condemning them to death. This isn't even a seperate option from "kill them", just a specific way of doing it.

Putting aside the fact that while it might have led to a similar outcome it's still an option, there is nothing that proves they would have simply ALL died. They were in a desparate, despondent state of withdrawal; but we only have the Alliance's word for it that this state would have lasted long enough for all of them to die. It obviously didn't last forever, as we've seen. It's a little bit like people saying "Africans would never develop civilization, better put them to work somewhere" and then going "see they only got to civilization because we put them to work!" - it's reasoning after the fact.

What this overlooks entirely, however, is the other option I put forward, i.e. rehabilitation. They could have helped them overcome the problems of fel without resorting to incarceration, concentration, and (in some cases) exploitation. They didn't even consider this. You can't now pretend that simply wasn't possible, that you had no choice. You did. You just took an easier option.

That's all I am about. I'm purely criticizing people who portray the situation as "without other options" because that's not true. They took a relatively easy, convenient option. They should admit as much, instead of pretending it was the sole possible act of benevolence and mercy they could possibly choose.

And your arguments for Sylvanas suffer from the same issue. Is it theoretically possible there might be a good reason? Maybe. Is it even remotely likely? Not a chance in hell. You're irrationally treating all options as equally valid.

I'm not treating all options as equally VALID. I'm not even treating them as equally possible. I am saying nothing as to what is or is more LIKELY - in fact, I couldn't even begin to give any likelihood for any of the options I could conceive of. Because it doesn't matter. I don't care whether her having good reasons is a 0.0001% chance - if it turns out she had good reasons, then it's true, be it 0.0001%, 0.1%, 10%, or whatever other arbitrary "likelihood" you want to put on it. And you know what? That's WHY I'm reserving judgement. Because I DON'T KNOW. I don't condemn people because it might be LIKELY they're guilty, I do it because I've been CONVINCED they are.

[deenman]

You can't seriously say that after how many times we've been tasked with "dealing with" the kids and young of other sentient creatures to the benefit of our factions. Heck the Tortollans from the last expansion literally make the argument it's fine if it ensures balance.

there is a big difference between curbing the population of NON sentient creatures that harms the enviroment or other species and killing elves

we do this in real life when populations breed out of control,you cant reason with them,and if left unchecked will lead to the colapse of an ecosystem and the eventual extinction of its own species and others...thats not cruelty thats an objective good

sadly often times in the past some of those situations were caused by humans by introducing foreign species in an enviroment

what did those elves kids do?

[BrintoSFJ]

It's not like they were mind controlled by the man named the deciever or anything

He was not mind controlled. That is not how Legion works. They seduce with power and let their minions do whatever the fuck they want with that power.

Arthas had nothing to do with alliance, he was not leading Alliance army, he has no position in Alliance leadership. There was also no actual alliance other than in paper. And even the alliance of 1st and 2nd war was completely different than the current one. So why should the current alliance take responsibility for someone who did not even belong to the original alliance to begin with? Get your facts right.

As for Sylvanas, she make herself sound so noble. She killed thousands, caused death of hundreds of thousand if not million. And her excuse is that she is actually doing them favor by alleviating them to a higher form. Did any of those murdered people say that they wanted this? He destroyed hopes and dreams and lives of so many people for her own benefit, not for some higher purpose.

There is no redemption for a character like Sylvanas. There should not be any redemption for her. I hope blizzard don't pull the Kerrigan crap again.

[deenman]

He was not mind controlled. That is not how Legion works. They seduce with power and let their minions do whatever the fuck they want with that power.

Arthas had nothing to do with alliance, he was not leading Alliance army, he has no position in Alliance leadership. There was also no actual alliance other than in paper. And even the alliance of 1st and 2nd war was completely different than the current one. So why should the current alliance take responsibility for someone who did not even belong to the original alliance to begin with? Get your facts right.

As for Sylvanas, she make herself sound so noble. She killed thousands, caused death of hundreds of thousand if not million. And her excuse is that she is actually doing them favor by alleviating them to a higher form. Did any of those murdered people say that they wanted this? He destroyed hopes and dreams and lives of so many people for her own benefit, not for some higher purpose.

There is no redemption for a character like Sylvanas. There should not be any redemption for her. I hope blizzard don't pull the Kerrigan crap again.

but but...burning kids alive is just MoRaLy GrAy

[Lorgar Aurelian]

That's my point, though. This was an OPTION - it wasn't easy, it wasn't convenient, but it was there. It could have been tried. It MIGHT have failed. But it didn't HAVE to fail. They made the choice not to consider this as a real alternative; but it was there. And to now go on about how "there were only two options" is completely disingenuous and mostly serves exculpatory function, i.e. the whole "yes it was wrong but we didn't have a choice" thing.

It’s not a real alternative though it’s is just killing them without dirtying your own sword.

Your just explaining how you would kill them not making any new options.

[Syegfryed]

i like how this pool is basically:
1-Horde( who does not follow a dead elf)

and

2- no horde( who pretend to be)

2021 and still baffles me how blizzard put a dead elf in the position of warchief and it baffles me more that there is some people who liked, it rly shows off the problem with the horde direction since Garrosh

[Biomega]

It’s not a real alternative though it’s is just killing them without dirtying your own sword.

Your just explaining how you would kill them not making any new options.

I did provide options that weren't just killing them, and also I am not convinced that leaving them to recover on their own WOULD have NECESSARILY killed them.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Putting aside the fact that while it might have led to a similar outcome it's still an option, there is nothing that proves they would have simply ALL died. They were in a desparate, despondent state of withdrawal; but we only have the Alliance's word for it that this state would have lasted long enough for all of them to die. It obviously didn't last forever, as we've seen. It's a little bit like people saying "Africans would never develop civilization, better put them to work somewhere" and then going "see they only got to civilization because we put them to work!" - it's reasoning after the fact.

even the meta narrative eh knowledges the orcs withdrawal no one is going off just the alliances word.

What this overlooks entirely, however, is the other option I put forward, i.e. rehabilitation. They could have helped them overcome the problems of fel without resorting to incarceration, concentration, and (in some cases) exploitation. They didn't even consider this. You can't now pretend that simply wasn't possible, that you had no choice. You did. You just took an easier option.

antonidas tried to find a cure for the fel withdrawal and failed it was something the orcs had to get over them selfs and it took years for them to do it.

That's all I am about. I'm purely criticizing people who portray the situation as "without other options" because that's not true. They took a relatively easy, convenient option. They should admit as much, instead of pretending it was the sole possible act of benevolence and mercy they could possibly choose.

All your doing is pointing out your preferred ways of killing the orcs (exile) as rehabilitating them wasn’t possible as laid out by the meta narrative.

- - - Updated - - -

I did provide options that weren't just killing them, and also I am not convinced that leaving them to recover on their own WOULD have NECESSARILY killed them.

I mean that’s like saying leaving a baby to fend for it self might not kill it sure some one might find and care for it but by just leaving it there your choosing to let it die instead of helping it. Even if by some miracle it loved your still making the choice to let it die IE kill it.

- - - Updated - - -

there is a big difference between curbing the population of NON sentient creatures that harms the enviroment or other species and killing elves

we do this in real life when populations breed out of control,you cant reason with them,and if left unchecked will lead to the colapse of an ecosystem and the eventual extinction of its own species and others...thats not cruelty thats an objective good

sadly often times in the past some of those situations were caused by humans by introducing foreign species in an enviroment

what did those elves kids do?

I mean we kill a whole lot of baby dragons and smash a lot of eggs and we know there sentient even in the shell.

[MrKnubbles]

No, I've never liked her.

[deenman]

I mean we kill a whole lot of baby dragons and smash a lot of eggs and we know there sentient even in the shell.

arent black dragons completly insane and under the corruption of old gods?

either way the thing is also a gameplay necessity in those cases,even if i dont agree with killing whatever creature,its a game...i have to do it,sylvanas doesnt have to do it,she and her actions are in the hands of the writers

[Paperfox]

No. I think she was working in her own interests, not the horde's.