It destroys the soul and the entity simply stops existing. You're basically saying it's fine to murder people because it frees the person from any possible suffering in real life.
And warlocks consume parts of one's soul which would be just as painful if not more so.necromancers would use souls to animate corpses so they would be in constant pain,
Bolvar said that the helm allowed him glimpses of the Shadowlands. And considering that he did not have Frostmourne with himself but still had necromantic powers, indicates that the helm grants powers as well.Shadowlands proves nothing with the helm, the only powers its stated to have is control.
I'll repeat, again, what you constantly ignore:Lore doesnt support you on them being useless without a runeblade,
"The single most important piece of equipment to a death knight is the runeblade. It is through the runeblade that a death knight commands the powers of frost, blood and the unholy. The runeblade also acts as a vessel to store the death knight's runic power.
The runeblade is an extension of your being. A death knight cannot battle without a runeblade."
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The void has never raised undead before, as far as I know, which lends credence to the idea that they are just puppets of the void.
You're the one saying that "'chill' actually means death coil" because of the WoWPedia link.It's not headcanon. It's literally in the article for necromancy that you've fucking posted. Just because you skim over things for points that fit your narrative and disregard everything else doesn't make it headcanon. Try actually reading the whole thing.
It literally says "chill your enemies".There is also nothing about death knight frost abilities being described as death magic or necromancy.
You are. Because I posted evidence and lore facts, yet you're dismissing them and accusing me of using conjecture while engaging in it yourself.I'm not projecting anything.
And more projections, considering everything you posted are nothing but opinions, and at no point you posted any evidence of your assertions.The majority of things you've said have been opinion.
Last edited by Ielenia; 2021-03-06 at 01:50 AM.
No. You have posted conjecture. I even pointed out how the dinosaurs are called undead and you fucking double down on them being "puppets" because you refuse to say you're wrong. We had never seen the Void do it before but even though it was used that way in BfA, that means it's still never happened. Do you really not see how asinine of a statement that is?
I've explained why what I've said are facts and you refuse to listen. Why even open a thread like this for debate if you are utterly incapable of seeing anyone's point but your own?
A quick death to your enemy is a mercy, the soul being in pain for years is just evil plain and simple. Nothing about necromancy is suitable to be a player class, anyone who thinks so is just naive and ignorant to the lore.
The helm was made in torghast thats in the shadowlands so its linked to where it was created, the helm doesnt grant necromantic powers there is no lore at all to back it up, the helm just acted as a vessel to take control of whoever wore the helm.
The lore doesnt back up what you said, you claimed if they dont wield a runeblade they are unable to even fight, which is not the case at all and nothing supports you on that. They dont need to fight as a deathknight o be useful, there are plenty warriors far more poweful than any deathknight could ever be, if you learn all the magic a deathknight would use there is no need for a runeblade to be a deathknight, the first deathknights didnt have runeblades at all because they were not melee fighters.
Last edited by kenn9530; 2021-03-06 at 01:49 AM.
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Says the guy who has yet to post a single link to back up his assertion.
You didn't. You asserted that. You didn't provide a link to show that they're actual "undead" or "aberration" or whatever.I even pointed out how the dinosaurs are called undead
"That means it never happened" is a misrepresentation. I never said "it never happened". I said "we don't know for sure" because we never saw it happen for sure before.and you fucking double down on them being "puppets" because you refuse to say you're wrong. We had never seen the Void do it before but even though it was used that way in BfA, that means it's still never happened.
Because I don't accept assertions without evidence. Back up your assertions with evidence.I've explained why what I've said are facts and you refuse to listen.
If you were to actually back up your assertions with some actual evidence instead of more assertions...Why even open a thread like this for debate if you are utterly incapable of seeing anyone's point but your own?
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Except it's not a quick death. Every time the warlock casts a spell, it consumes shards of the soul. Imagine, in real life, a person being kept alive but every now and then the kidnapper shows up to carve a piece of their bodies off. That's the same thing, only with the soul.
Bolvar specifically said Shadowlands, not the Maw only.The helm was made in torghast thats in the shadowlands so its linked to where it was created,
Watch the Shadowland's intro cinematic. Bolvar has necromantic powers despite not having frostmourne.the helm doesnt grant necromantic powers there is no lore at all to back it up, the helm just acted as a vessel to take control of whoever wore the helm.
Again:The lore doesnt back up what you said, you claimed if they dont wield a runeblade they are unable to even fight, which is not the case at all and nothing supports you on that.
I'll repeat:
A DEATH KNIGHT CANNOT BATTLE WITHOUT A RUNEBLADE!!
Except the death knights have no power without their runeblade.if you learn all the magic a deathknight would use there is no need for a runeblade to be a deathknight,
I'm not gonna repeat it. Read about the three generations of death knights.the first deathknights didnt have runeblades at all because they were not melee fighters.
I literally posted the exact quote that marks the raised devilsaurs as undead and you made an asinine comment about them actually being puppets despite them being called undead. You haven't posted a single point that is solid proof anything. Everything you have posted has been your interpretation of things and when clicks on, those links don't actually back up ANYTHING you're saying. Like how the wowpedia link describes how the different races and factions use necromancy without actually using Death magic but you REFUSED to read that part of the very articles you posted.
So I ask again....why participate in a debate when all your points are not made in good faith?
Except your quote doesn't do that, at all. It doesn't say "undead". It just says it raises them. And it doesn't say it raises them as "undead", which is why I pointed out that a valid explanation is that it just animated the bones with void magic, akin to a golem, instead of undead, especially since we never saw or heard the void creating actual undead.
It is a valid possibility.and you made an asinine comment about them actually being puppets despite them being called undead.
Which is fine, since I'm not making statements of fact, simply pointing out a possible explanation to the void raising the dinosaur skeletons.You haven't posted a single point that is solid proof anything.
You didn't post any link of that sort.Like how the wowpedia link describes how the different races and factions use necromancy without actually using Death magic
If you would stop the projection, perhaps we could talk.So I ask again....why participate in a debate when all your points are not made in good faith?
Before BFA, Light has never created undead either. Light has always brought the dead back to the living. Calia is the first case where this happened.
Umbric uses Void to do a similar feat to the dinosaur. It is definitely undead, and not just a mere 'puppet'. It is the first case in the lore where Void has been shown to raise undead.
We now know of at least 3 different ways of creating undead with different magic (not counting 'Necromancy is Arcane' from the Dalaran books old lore)
We know it's "undead" because, as far as we can tell, it is Calia's soul in that raised body. We don't know if Umbric is actually raising the dead (i.e. pulling their soul back from the Shadowlands and linking into that dead body) or if it's just puppeteering it like a mage would an arcane golem.
Damn, now that you mention it, Demon Hunters literally carve off pieces of their target's soul WHILE IT IS STILL ALIVE!!
But warlocks consuming a soul, piece by piece, or a demon hunter carving pieces of a living soul, those are all completely, totally a-okay!
But a necromancer raising the dead by binding a soul to a corpse? That is a big "no-no"! And don't forget to ignore the existence of death knights, that do this exact same thing that is being condemned!
it's not distinct enough from stuff like shadow-priest, warlock and deathknight to be viable. It's fun to speculate and theorize but I see something completely different out of left-field to be more likely. Then again is there room for anymore and can they handle more? If it happens it'll be reduced to one spec.
If you knew the candle was fire then the meal was cooked a long time ago.
When you fighting an enemy no matter what class you would be your either going to be slashing it with a sword, burning them with magic, shooting them with arrows so it makes no difference. The warlock isnt desecrating the corpse or using thier soul for anything further, the necromancer on the otherhand will do whatever they want with the corpse and soul.
you do know that the only place the helm has a link to is torghast, it doesnt look anywhere else as it was made in torghast which is still part of shadowlands and still doesnt prove the helm has any more powers other than that of control.
A person who is turned into a deathknight can battle without a runeblade, you have to be stupid to believe otherwise, the warriors retain all thier previous abilities so they can just battle with those, they dont need to use deathknight abilities to battle with, if a powerful mage was turned into a deathknight they wouldnt stop being able to use magic or a warrior wouldnt forget all his other abilities so stop talking total BS, i didnt say they would battle as a deathknight and deathknights are not all that powerful compared to someone who is the top of thier class.
The first deathknights didnt use runeblades they attacked with ranged magic so a deathknight is far from useless without a runeblade.
Last edited by kenn9530; 2021-03-07 at 03:18 AM.
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Yes, he is. You have been demonstrated so by several others, numerous times, and yet you continue to openly, dishonestly handwave everything. Every single one of your points against the inclusion of the necromancer also work against the death knight. And many of your points also work against the warlock and the demon hunter.
And the warlock will do whatever they want with the soul while the body is left misshapen by the fel magic.the necromancer on the otherhand will do whatever they want with the corpse and soul.
No, I don't. And neither do you. Bolvar specifically mentions getting glimpses of the Shadowlands. Not Torghast. Not the Maw. But the Shadowlands.you do know that the only place the helm has a link to is torghast,
This nonsense you wrote there is akin to saying that a car produced in Texas can only run in Texas, and not any other state, "which are still part of the US".it doesnt look anywhere else as it was made in torghast which is still part of shadowlands
Look at the opening cinematic where we have a Bolvar without Frostmourne using abilities he did not possess prior to donning the helm.and still doesnt prove the helm has any more powers other than that of control.
Except the canon lore expressly said they cannot, as without the runeblade they are powerless.A person who is turned into a deathknight can battle without a runeblade,
The only stupidity is ignoring canon facts in lieu of your headcanon.you have to be stupid to believe otherwise,
Except they do, otherwise we would have death knights using non-death knight abilities in the game... and yet we don't.if a powerful mage was turned into a deathknight they wouldnt stop being able to use magic
The only bullshiter here is you, who is ignoring canon lore of the game and stating their debunked headcanons as fact.or a warrior wouldnt forget all his other abilities so stop talking total BS,
I said it before and I'll say it again: read about the three separate generations of death knights. They are wildly different than one-another. The original death knights have nothing to do with the death knights of today, aside from having the same name.The first deathknights didnt use runeblades they attacked with ranged magic so a deathknight is far from useless without a runeblade.
Your the one being dishonest, the player warlock doesnt go around desecrating corpses at all once the enemy is dead thats it. Neither do the demon hunters or deathknights do anything to the dead bodies afterwards, once they are dead thats it they are left alone. The player warlock does nothing to the enemy soul after the target is dead.
Your the one claiming the helm has more powers when you have nothing to back it up, we know it has a link to torghast thats why bolvar can see torghast through the helm. Theres a reason its called the helm of domination because it controls the undead and makes you the lich king.
And your ignoring the mourneblade that is the big huge mace bolvar has and projecting your unfounded theories.
The lore doesnt back you up, it doesnt say they still cant battle without a runeblade it just says they cant do it as a deathknight so stop talking BS trying to claim lore says something it actually doesnt. All a runeblade does is grant you extra abilities you would otherwise need years of training for.
A deathknight doesnt just forget all the abilities it knows otherwise it would be pointless to make them a deathknight, for the game it wouldnt be fair if the deathknight had access to more abilities than another class would it, even arthas as a deathknight still occasionally used his paladin abilities.
It doesnt matter what generation it is, a deathknight is not useless without a runeblade and thats a fact, runes and runic power are only relevant to the abilities in the weapon itself not the users actual abilities they can use without runic power or runes.
Last edited by kenn9530; 2021-03-07 at 04:13 AM.
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Except that's "not it" at all. The warlock will from now on torture the soul he captured, carving and consuming bits and pieces of the soul. That is so merciful~
Demon hunters literally carve off pieces of their enemies' souls and eat them.Neither do the demon hunters
Death knights are constantly raising the bodies of the fallen. Read upon how the Unholy rotation works. They also make the corpses of the fallen explode.or deathknights do anything to the dead bodies afterwards,
Demonstrably false, but hard facts never stopped your headcanons before, right?once they are dead thats it they are left alone.
They torture it by ripping and consuming pieces of the soul.The player warlock does nothing to the enemy soul after the target is dead.
I have Bolvar's words, and the Shadowlands intro cinematics, which are two canon information. You, meanwhile, have shown nothing but your own assertions.Your the one claiming the helm has more powers when you have nothing to back it up,
If it has a connection to the Shadowlands I would imagine it could also peer into Torghast.we know it has a link to torghast thats why bolvar can see torghast through the helm.
And that in no way disproves the idea that the helm could have other powers.Theres a reason its called the helm of domination because it controls the undead and makes you the lich king.
Do you know it's a mourneblade? You don't. But I can tell you this: it's not a mourneblade. And you know how I know that? Because it's lacking the most important part of the mourneblade: runes. It doesn't have a single rune in it:And your ignoring the mourneblade that is the big huge mace bolvar has and projecting your unfounded theories.
And we know Mourneblades have to have runes:
Except the lore says exactly that: a death knight cannot battle without a runeblade. It doesn't say "you can still fight as you did in your previous life", it outright says: a death knight cannot battle without their runeblade.The lore doesnt back you up, it doesnt say they still cant battle without a runeblade it just says they cant do it as a deathknight so stop talking BS trying to claim lore says something it actually doesnt. All a runeblade does is grant you extra abilities you would otherwise need years of training for.
Why? Death knights on their own are powerful soldiers with just their death knight abilities.A deathknight doesnt just forget all the abilities it knows otherwise it would be pointless to make them a deathknight,
Care to link to those instances? Because, as far as I recall, he never did that.for the game it wouldnt be fair if the deathknight had access to more abilities than another class would it, even arthas as a deathknight still occasionally used his paladin abilities.
It does matter. At all. Because they're three different and separate versions of the "death knight."It doesnt matter what generation it is,
No, that's an outright lie. The lore expressly says that a death knight is powerless without their runeblades.a deathknight is not useless without a runeblade and thats a fact,
Since when is the player tormenting souls or even capturing souls, the only relevant warlock is the player so stop talking BS about things you have no clue about. The warlock doesnt do anything to the enemy soul afterwards and even if they did consume it fully it would be a mercy to prevent further suffering.
The player Deathknight summons the same undead thats why his name is constant, they dont use corpses of the dead on the battlefield and dont have an ability to blow them up, even army of undead and apocoylspe is a temporary pure magic summon as it can be used without the need of a corpse.
You have nothing backing up anything on your so called claims of the extra powers the helm has.
The helm is connected to torghast, you know the only place the helm lets bolvar look into, it has never once looked anywhere else so even more BS from your mouth.
The visual presence of runes from some pictures doesnt prove it doesnt have runes on it, he easily created shadowmourne so its not hard to create a hammer version of it.
The lore doesnt back you up, it only says they cant battle as a deathknight, it doesnt say they cant battle as the warrior they were before, which is my whole point, your trying to cherry pick quotes and pass them of as evidence.
It doesnt matter what generation because you are claiming a deathknight is unable to battle without a runeblade when there is actual lore saying otherwise.
alexandros morgraine is using corrupted ashbringer currently as a deathknight, that weapon is not a runeblade.
Last edited by kenn9530; 2021-03-07 at 04:30 PM.
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