Who do you think really "won" the Fourth War? The status of Ashenvale and Lordaeron?

[Syegfryed]

Mechagon should be the strongest addition to Alliance in whole BfA. Its a treasure trove of technology and previously would be only rivaled by Gnomeregan and some Titan facilities.

it would, but they were not also in war and in the shits after the king went bananas?

[Val the Moofia Boss]

... Why is this even a question? The Horde lost the war before it had even begun.

There is no reason why Gilneas and Lordaeron haven't been retaken. The Undercity and Silvermoon were the Horde's only major footholds in the EK. With the Undercity gone, pretty much everything south of Eversong is Alliance territory. There is nothing stopping the Alliance from just rolling up to Silvermoon and taking the city, other than the Alliance being ludicrously gracious. The Alliance has total naval superiority and can blockade Silvermoon (hell, could probably do an Anaconda plan around Kalimdor!) and starve out Silvermoon if they want to. Or the Alliance can have their airships and gyrocopters perform a firebombing campaign and level Silvermoon into dust. Same with Suramar. The Alliance can systematically deal with every Horde faction. They performed a D-day invasion of Durotar and invaded Orgrimmar back in MoP, and only left because Varian was a nice guy. And the Alliance blew up Zandalar's fleet in the last expansion.

As for Ashenvale, it probably has Horde lumber operations and that's it. With Theramore and Teldrassil destroyed, the only real Alliance foothold in Kalimdor is on the Azuremyst Isles, on the Exodar. IIRC in lore the Exodar was repaired in one of the Cata novels. So theoretically the Exodar can be flown anywhere. It could fly to the EK, load up Alliance armies, fly back to Kalimdor, fly over a Horde city, and unload its army in the middle of an unprepared city and capture it and take the residents hostage. Also, the Alliance also has the Vindicaar.

Seriously. The Alliance can take whatever they want. The status of Ashenvale and the Horde cities is completely up to whether or not the Alliance leaders decideto stop being schmucks who keep letting the Horde get off scott free and actually start acting in their self interests.

If I lived in the Warcraft universe, I'd promptly surrender to the nearest Alliance base and join their side, because holy crap the Horde simply will not exist once writers stop propping it up and reality is allowed to take its course. At least, I'm pretty sure I will be better off sitting in a POW camp rather than a Horde city that is going to be Carthaged.

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Horde died with Garrosh.

And what ever we had in the fourth war lets call it the traitor alliance also lost on every border.
The only good thing right now is that blizzard has no beloved Horde members anymore to kill since they are all alrdy dead so now they can only get to Baine, Thrall and the other traitors to kill or turn them into villians.

The state of the Horde is really depressing. The Blood Oath of the Horde - the oath that every Horde warrior pledges - says that you're an oathbreaker and a traitor to the Horde if you defy the will of the Warchief.

Well, as of BFA, Horde characters have fought against two of their warchiefs. Two separate instances of high treason to the Horde. It's kind of hypocritical to claim that you're representing Horde values... when you're still running an organization with the Blood Oath in place.

Out of the 7 warchiefs the Horde has had (Blackhand > Orgrim > Thrall > Garrosh > Vol'jin > Sylvanas), there has only ever been one single peaceful transition of power: Thrall to Garrosh. And we've gone through 6 different Warchiefs in just 13 years (AFAIK the current year is 33. WC3 took place in year 20). That's an average of one Warchief per every 2 years, almost all having been killed in battle and half of them killed by ostensibly "loyal" members of the Horde. Yikes.

The council won't last two years. A Warchief will be elected, and then he will foolishly provoke a war with the Alliance... and then get overthrown and the cycle will repeat.

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they have Turalyon which is a leader, better than they had

Turalyon actually had balls when he was leading the Army of the Light. But now that he is leading the Alliance, he lost his balls, because if he still had them the Horde would've been crushed.

the horde in other hand is on the dumpster with that meme concil

yup

[Syegfryed]

The state of the Horde is really depressing. The Blood Oath of the Horde - the oath that every Horde warrior pledges - says that you're an oathbreaker and a traitor to the Horde if you defy the will of the Warchief.

Well, as of BFA, Horde characters have fought against two of their warchiefs. Two separate instances of high treason to the Horde. It's kind of hypocritical to claim that you're representing Horde values... when you're still running an organization with the Blood Oath in place.

to shed a bit of light on things, since Sylvanus rule was not legitimate, there is no problem in going against her, it is actually good.

But you see how things went to shit when horde leadership was not orc anymore, and to believe the last warchief will be set in stone on the records as a dead elf, a troll i can see, but an elf, trully depressing

[valax]

The evil warchief got deposed, you can suppose that's a win for the Alliance

[Syegfryed]

Turalyon actually had balls when he was leading the Army of the Light. But now that he is leading the Alliance, he lost his balls, because if he still had them the Horde would've been crushed.

Its not like he can though, the alliance may have "won" the war in territories, but they have lost too much and are in less power than the horde by the end of it, thats one the reasons they agreed with the truce

[sam86]

Yep, those are the in-game statements and they are ridiculous

welcome to wow, when exactly did it make sense?
how did we beat LK? he has skeletons that tower entire alliance and horde armies combined, but hey he wanted to 'lure' champions to rez them
what about how Garrosh supporters official lore answer is minority, mainly the old horde (garrosh recruited them) and dragonmaw and some goblins, yet his 'power' was threat to entire world because he had Y''sharraj heart with his side?
what about the lovely sylvanas character that change depend on whoever writing her woke up on his left or right side
too many bullsh8t in game, and ironic all started because we didn't really object of male nelf warrior and female druids

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The evil warchief got deposed, you can suppose that's a win for the Alliance

as a die hard horde fan since wc3 days, i assure u it is a win for horde too
i don't want an emo bitch to lead my faction, i wish wc3 thrall is back, or cata garrosh

[BobAwesome]

... Why is this even a question? The Horde lost the war before it had even begun.

There is no reason why Gilneas and Lordaeron haven't been retaken. The Undercity and Silvermoon were the Horde's only major footholds in the EK. With the Undercity gone, pretty much everything south of Eversong is Alliance territory. There is nothing stopping the Alliance from just rolling up to Silvermoon and taking the city, other than the Alliance being ludicrously gracious. The Alliance has total naval superiority and can blockade Silvermoon (hell, could probably do an Anaconda plan around Kalimdor!) and starve out Silvermoon if they want to. Or the Alliance can have their airships and gyrocopters perform a firebombing campaign and level Silvermoon into dust. Same with Suramar. The Alliance can systematically deal with every Horde faction. They performed a D-day invasion of Durotar and invaded Orgrimmar back in MoP, and only left because Varian was a nice guy. And the Alliance blew up Zandalar's fleet in the last expansion.

As for Ashenvale, it probably has Horde lumber operations and that's it. With Theramore and Teldrassil destroyed, the only real Alliance foothold in Kalimdor is on the Azuremyst Isles, on the Exodar. IIRC in lore the Exodar was repaired in one of the Cata novels. So theoretically the Exodar can be flown anywhere. It could fly to the EK, load up Alliance armies, fly back to Kalimdor, fly over a Horde city, and unload its army in the middle of an unprepared city and capture it and take the residents hostage. Also, the Alliance also has the Vindicaar.

Seriously. The Alliance can take whatever they want. The status of Ashenvale and the Horde cities is completely up to whether or not the Alliance leaders decideto stop being schmucks who keep letting the Horde get off scott free and actually start acting in their self interests.

If I lived in the Warcraft universe, I'd promptly surrender to the nearest Alliance base and join their side, because holy crap the Horde simply will not exist once writers stop propping it up and reality is allowed to take its course. At least, I'm pretty sure I will be better off sitting in a POW camp rather than a Horde city that is going to be Carthaged.

The state of the Horde is really depressing. The Blood Oath of the Horde - the oath that every Horde warrior pledges - says that you're an oathbreaker and a traitor to the Horde if you defy the will of the Warchief.

Well, as of BFA, Horde characters have fought against two of their warchiefs. Two separate instances of high treason to the Horde. It's kind of hypocritical to claim that you're representing Horde values... when you're still running an organization with the Blood Oath in place.

Out of the 7 warchiefs the Horde has had (Blackhand > Orgrim > Thrall > Garrosh > Vol'jin > Sylvanas), there has only ever been one single peaceful transition of power: Thrall to Garrosh. And we've gone through 6 different Warchiefs in just 13 years (AFAIK the current year is 33. WC3 took place in year 20). That's an average of one Warchief per every 2 years, almost all having been killed in battle and half of them killed by ostensibly "loyal" members of the Horde. Yikes.

The council won't last two years. A Warchief will be elected, and then he will foolishly provoke a war with the Alliance... and then get overthrown and the cycle will repeat.

Do you know what a Pyrrhic victory is? The Alliance don't have the forces to launch any kind of offensive. The Gilneas and Night Elves are homeless and The Kul Tiran fleet is at the bottom of the ocean thanks to Azshara. I don't know why you're writing a whole ass essay on the Horde leadership when literally every Alliance faction has some kind of infiltration or coup at its highest levels. The fact that you consider the Horde who were led by Blackhand and Orgrim as the same Horde led by Thrall shows how little you understand this games lore.

[Thage]

Neither faction won in a traditional sense. The Alliance and Horde reached an armistice after Sylvanas abandoned the Horde and the council was formed. The Alliance gained the most ground, but also took the hardest hits. I'd say the armies are about back on even keel after the Horde lost a shitton of orcs (its most populous race) back during the Siege of Orgrimmar as far as bodies ready to stand to battle are concerned.

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ITs like he can though, the allianc emay have "won" the war in territories, but they ahve lost too much and are in less power than the horde by the end of it, thats one the reasons they agreed with the truce

I don't think either faction is any shape for a war considering the Fourth War was specifically engineered by Sylvanas to put as many bodies in the meat grinder as possible. The Horde isn't exactly in a position of superiority--they're stretched so thin that the vulpera had to intervene with trade disputes and other frontier issues just to keep things running smoothly while they were still a friendly but unaffiliated third party.

[Stardrift]

Alliance won, but they never got a real end. At least in MoP, Varian wagged their finger at the Horde before sending Garfish off with the teddy bears, as little as that was.

Characters acted totally out of character, especially Genn, the Worgen got genocided a second time alongside the Night Elves and what.. they don't care? Nobody seems to care or understand the weight of that?

Tyrande's dead set on killing Sylvanas but doesn't seem to care at all about the rest of the Horde who carried out her vile orders. Like.. what? She couldn't have said to her forces "hey, before I dive into hell, go and hunt down every forsaken mongrel and execute them"?

There was no resolution to BFA's story, and it was embarrassing.

[Nathreim]

Alliance didn't win they survived. Saurfang's gambit saved the Alliance who by Anduin's own admission did not have the forces to launch more than a single desperate attack on Org and that was with the help of Saurfang's forces.

The Horde is now more powerful militarily but it means nothing really. The Horde has no navy so any attack is impossible but its a mute point with the Council clearly against conflict (minus the Zandalari and Darkspear). They will do nothing until Blizz decides to do another war expansion in a few years and hits the Council with the Villian Bat because we cant have an original story.


The only winner is Sylvanas cause she got most of what she wanted everyone else lost big time.

[Zendhal The Black]

Sylvanas survived so we all lost

[Aresk]

The Kul Tiran fleet is at the bottom of the ocean thanks to Azshara.

Where was it stated that the Kul Tiran fleet was destroyed? Less than half the fleet was depicted in Nazjatar cinematics, and Shadow's Rising continues to have the Alliance rely on Kul Tiran vessels to handle its naval operations. Did I miss some source that specified that the Kul Tiran fleet was destroyed?

[AngerFork]

I'm not really sure the question here should be who won between the Alliance & Horde. Between the two, probably the Alliance won the most battles & the most territory (& nearly had the war ended at one point), so they would probably be the closest to a winner between the two factions.

Really though, I think the overall winner of the Fourth War has to be Sylvanas. She got more power for the Maw from both sides, she found out who really was loyal to her, & she has shown herself to be a power broker on par with Azshara. She may not have taken over Stormwind or enslaved the Alliance, but she without question ended the Fourth War far stronger & in a far better position than she started.

Fun part of this IMO is considering what a true peace treaty could look like between the two factions. If I'm drawing it up, Gilneas is instantly Alliance territory as is Darkshore & Ashenvale. All are territories specifically lost to the Alliance due to the actions of Sylvanas. I'd also give the Alliance Arathi as they did win the warfront there. Lordaeron is likely not habitable and won't be for a while, so I'd move the Forsaken to Stratholme giving the Horde the Plaguelands. This provides the Blood Elves a bit more protection. The Alliance should also move their troops out of Durotar & The Barrens. They have no reason to be there in a time of peace. While I'm not sure I'd trade any more territory between the two sides, I do think both sides should spend an expansion or so helping the other side to rebuild in order to try and move past the wounds of the past. This land setup perhaps favors the Alliance more, but that's partially due to both sides trying to work past the wounds Sylvanas left.

[Syegfryed]

I don't think either faction is any shape for a war considering the Fourth War was specifically engineered by Sylvanas to put as many bodies in the meat grinder as possible. The Horde isn't exactly in a position of superiority--they're stretched so thin that the vulpera had to intervene with trade disputes and other frontier issues just to keep things running smoothly while they were still a friendly but unaffiliated third party.

thats the point they tried to make, that no one won or lost the war, but one was in the upperhand in one point while the other had on another.

in short, alliance got more wins and territory, horde still have more strength in armies, not by a large margin, but they do have, like they by the end of it, but its not like is going to help much because the territories are alliance now.

So neither the horde can advance now, neither the alliance can end the horde.

[Raisei]

Alliance won, but they never got a real end. At least in MoP, Varian wagged their finger at the Horde before sending Garfish off with the teddy bears, as little as that was.

Agreed, the story feels unfinished and now we have to contain with another chapter of Danuser's worship for the Dark Lady before we ever get anywhere with that.

Characters acted totally out of character, especially Genn, the Worgen got genocided a second time alongside the Night Elves and what.. they don't care? Nobody seems to care or understand the weight of that?

The Alliance playerbase cares. The writers do not. They knew this whole war had to be wrapped up inside of this expansion but they still went ahead and had one faction commit a brutal unforgivable genocide, expecting us to ... forget... forgive? I don't know. They thought by putting all the blame on Sylvanas they could remove this small genocide from the Horde's reputation, but surprise it doesn't work like that.
Sylvanas was only in power because the Horde supported her for a long time after Teldrassil. Making this the second time a clearly psychopathic Warchief gains widespread support of the Horde for murdering civilians. It's ridiculous to expect that we would just be fine with letting it go. But the story is written now, nothing we say will change it and again the Horde gets away with it's crimes unpunished.

Tyrande's dead set on killing Sylvanas but doesn't seem to care at all about the rest of the Horde who carried out her vile orders. Like.. what? She couldn't have said to her forces "hey, before I dive into hell, go and hunt down every forsaken mongrel and execute them"?

There was no resolution to BFA's story, and it was embarrassing.

Worse. Tyrande is dead set on Sylvanas and barely cares about anyone else AT ALL. She is literally being turned into a Sylvanas clone from WC3 that will do anything to get her revenge. I will not be surprised in the least if she becomes a boss in the 9.2. raid, allied with the Jailer because we (were forced to) spare Sylvanas in 9.1, making the humiliation of the character and the Night Elves complete.

[VladlTutushkin]

it would, but they were not also in war and in the shits after the king went bananas?

We killed the King and then they chose Gelbin as their new King so its settled.

[Accendor]

Horde won hardcore and it's not even close

[Val the Moofia Boss]

Its not like he can though, the alliance may have "won" the war in territories, but they have lost too much and are in less power than the horde by the end of it, thats one the reasons they agreed with the truce

The Alliance don't have the forces to launch any kind of offensive.

This another point about WoW's writing in recent years that is bullocks.

There is no world in which the Alliance "run out of manpower" before the Horde does. Most of the Alliance is made of up kingdoms that possess dense city populations supported by vast swathes of farmlands. Stormwind, Kul'Tiras, the Bronzebeards, the Wildhammers, the Dark Iron Dwarves (farming on soil in the Burning Steppes enriched by the volcanic ash), the Gnomergan and Mechagon gnomes, and the Night Elves.

Meanwhile, the vast majority of Horde races are relatively small tribal populations that don't even practice agriculture, capping the maximum number their populations can grow to.

• The Orcs were just a group of tribes that were united by Blackhand, and then the majority were killed off or died to starvation during the First and Second Wars. By WC3 the Orcs only had a few villages spread throughout the EK and Kalimdor and a few thousand people in concentration camps, with farming only just recently beginning to be practiced in Orgrimmar (and even then, Durotar is ill suited for farming. Seems they rely more on raising cattle and pigs).

• The Tauren were just a few thousand in number, on the brink of being completely wiped out by the Centaurs. Their small tent city is supported by hunting-gathering.

• The Darkspear trolls were also just a few small tribes and also on the verge of being wiped out by the Naga. Again, they aren't farmers so they can't have populations that compare to your average Alliance kingdom.

• As for the Forsaken, Arthas took most of the Scourge to Northrend, and of those remaining in the EK, only a fraction of them broke free with Sylvanas. And the Forsaken only ever had 3 Valkyr who could only really raised humans and elves, with almost all bodies having to have died within the past 10 years or less to be raised (we don't see anyone from the Anduin Lothar's time being raised, after all). So the Forsaken's replenishment rate is abysmal. 3 Valkyr raising nonstop can't outcompete the birthrate of a small countryside of farms (as in the Alliance). And the 3 Valkyr are killed off one by beginning with the end of Wrath.

• Silvermoon: Didn't like 98% of the population die? Burning Crusade constantly makes a big deal how their race is on the verge of annihilation. If you play a Blood Elf, you are in the top 1%. BC took place in the year 26, which is 7 years before the present day, so even if the Blood Elves repopulated like crazy, the baby boom wouldn't have produced any men of fighting age yet.

• Kezan Goblins: their home island was blown up and only those Gallywix took with him survived. They have a decently small sized town in Azshara but there is no way that their population is comparable to an Alliance kingdom.

• Huojin Pandaren: lol. To be fair, the Pandaren probably have one of the largest populations in Azeroth, if not THE largest if the parallels with China still hold up. However, Pandaria didn't join either faction, and we see in the MoP storyline that only a small handful of Pandarens volunteer to join either side. After the Horde ravaged Pandaria, recruitment rates for the Horde should be abysmal, if not nonexistant. There is no way the Alliance runs out of Pandaren volunteers before the Horde does. And Huojin Pandaren pretty much don't show up at all after MoP. Irrelevant.

• Vulpera: again, nomadic tribes that don't practice agriculture. Insignificant in the grand scheme of things when you're talking about average Alliance population sizes. Irrelevant.

• Mag'har Orcs: nomadic tribes that were on the verge of extinction. Irrelevant.

• Nightborne: same situation as the Blood Elves. Vast majority of their kingdom has been killed off.

• Highmountain Tauren: finally, Horde tribes that have some actual agriculture going. Probably decently sized but as discussed in another thread, their numbers still can't compare to the average size of an Alliance kingdom. Better than most Horde races but not enough.

• That leaves the Zandalari Trolls has the one and only member of the Horde that has a population that is comparable to an Alliance kingdom. Problem is... the Alliance isn't made up of 1 kingdom. It has 7 (Stormwind, Kul'Tiras, Bronzebeards, Wildhammers, Dark Iron, Mechagon, Gnomergan). And that's not counting the vast swathes of countryside such as Arathi or Alterac who are implied to be a part of the Alliance. Zandalar alone cannot carry the Horde.

Everything points to Alliance forces being at least 10x the size of Horde forces. Even if every Horde soldier suddenly became an ace who could kill 9 Alliance soldiers per 1 Horde soldier, the Horde still loses. And that's not taking into account the vast technological and industrial superiority the Alliance has over the Horde. Machine guns, bombing campaigns, blockades, etc. Put really, the Alliance shouldn't really need to fight the Horde in the first place. The Alliance have the agriculture and the logistics to supply a long campaign. The Horde do not. Realistically after a few months, the Horde forces (and their people back home) should be starving.

Sorry. I know the Horde is cool and all (that's why I played one!), but let's not kid ourselves. This is Japan vs the United States. It's a fight that was doomed from the start. The Horde are screwed on every possible level - manpower, food, technology, logistics - that there is just no way they can win, even if they manage an insane kill ratio. Talanji and the Mag'har Orcs who beat their chests, wanting to go to war with the Alliance in Shadows Rising, are morons.

The "and that's the last of soldiers. They'll be calling up farmers next" line is a frequent point of parody in the WoW lore community for a reason. If Genn actually meant that, then the Alliance isn't fighting the Horde. They're fighting a different enemy that is an actual threat.

[Mehrunes]

The Alliance "won" only in as much the stronger Horde simply stopped fighting them, because grey lady badmouthing them made them forget that they willingly participated in her war against the Alliance for a reason, like their existing grievances with it.

Neither faction won in a traditional sense. The Alliance and Horde reached an armistice after Sylvanas abandoned the Horde and the council was formed. The Alliance gained the most ground, but also took the hardest hits. I'd say the armies are about back on even keel after the Horde lost a shitton of orcs (its most populous race) back during the Siege of Orgrimmar as far as bodies ready to stand to battle are concerned.

Why would Orcs lose a shitton of people when Blizz went out of their way to confirm even most Orcs stood against Garrosh? On top of that most of the loyalist Orcs we saw in SoO were those who were recruited after the formation of the New Horde, mostly by Garrosh himself. The stark majority of Orc mobs in the raid were either Mag'har, Blackrock or Dragonmaw.

[Darththeo]

The Alliance won, but Sylvanas also won.

The Horde lost.

Sylvanas' goal was to increase the amount of deaths that was happening, war did that.
The Alliance's goal was to stop the Horde's War effort.
The Horde's goal was conquest.