Who do you think really "won" the Fourth War? The status of Ashenvale and Lordaeron?

[Jastall]

The Alliance won the war but lost the peace, just like in Mists of Pandaria (which was the Third-and-a-Half War, I guess?). They achieved their primary war goal, that is deposing the omnicidally insane Warchief and replacing her with a rulership far more palatable to their aims and sensitivities, but said Council still holds some anti-Alliance sentiment, they haven't actually conquered any territories whatsoever and have just maybe reclaimed what they lost, the Horde's societal changes are too surface-level to be durable, their armed forces are in tatters, and there more disunity within the Alliance then before the war.

Exactly how consequential will all these effects actually be remains to be seen (my money is on "not at all", thanks to the sweet, sweet status quo) but at best the Alliance's victory led to them not being wiped out by the duo of lolevil jokers who now seeks to wipe out the entire cosmos due to critical levels of edginess. So, yay for team blue?

[Zyky]

In my eyes there is no winner, the Alliance lost most of it's military and only retook one area from the Horde, the other area they claimed from a mostly 3rd party enemy because Arathi was never under Horde control. We don't know exactly how substantial the Hordes losses were, but we know the Alliance were down to their last reserves of actual soldiers. It's safe to assume that Horde lost a lot of their army as well. There are no "winners" from the 4th war.

[loras]

Trying to pull a distinction between "expeditionary" and "defense" Alliance forces out of nowhere doesn't make any difference anyway, because the expedition to Dazar'alor already required the Alliance to resort to peasant conscription. Meaning that whatever they had back home was exhausted for the sake of the "expeditionary" force regardless. Besides, the Alliance had the upper hand after Dazar'alor because of naval supremacy after the Zandalari got lobotomized, because until then gaining a naval upper hand was one of the main goals of each faction. That supremacy went up in flames after Azshara sank a great part of the Kul Tiran fleet. The attempt at painting the Horde forces as just Orgrimmar's local garrison don't pan out in the slightest either, because among the things the Alliance leaders said after the fact was that the Horde is the only faction strong enough to effectively oppose N'Zoth.




Yeah, being a fanboy totally means not taking a part of each side's forces in a manner that's convenient to the Alliance. Very compelling argument you got there. Never mind that the Horde was simply caught with its pants down outside of their element, which says nothing about the size of their army. Had Orgrim not been impatient and simply marched his army north there'd be squat the Alliance could have done about that at the time, because the Horde dominated on land until Gul'dan's betrayal sapped their forces. And never mind that the Alliance itself is a bunch of different kingdoms, until then third parties to Stormwind's fight against the Horde, that were convinced by Stormwind to band together, because they were too weak to handle the Horde on their own. The best part though is where you use the Dark Star usage against the Horde, even though they were fighting a race aided by the Naaru and using their tech, because you can't even manage any sliver of consistency.




You can't prove that which does not exist. If anything is proven here is just that, that you have no point. Otherwise you'd be able to actually argue against what I said instead of relying on this cheap, lazy cop-out. But that would require you to find anything wrong in what I said, which is an impossibility as all of it is supported by in-game quotes and other sources. Most of which comes directly from Alliance leaders.

Ah, i thought that was before orgrimmar and after dazar'alor. I also recall the Horde being necessary, but rather as a complement than an only hope.

Additionally the weeks-until-being overrun did not strike me as being based solely on naval power either.

[VladlTutushkin]

Now i wanna make a nelf named Alfred.
Paladin preferably, because prot pallies just feel most appropriate in this context.

Nelfs cant be paladins, cant they?

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The Alliance won the war but lost the peace, just like in Mists of Pandaria (which was the Third-and-a-Half War, I guess?). They achieved their primary war goal, that is deposing the omnicidally insane Warchief and replacing her with a rulership far more palatable to their aims and sensitivities, but said Council still holds some anti-Alliance sentiment, they haven't actually conquered any territories whatsoever and have just maybe reclaimed what they lost, the Horde's societal changes are too surface-level to be durable, their armed forces are in tatters, and there more disunity within the Alliance then before the war.

Exactly how consequential will all these effects actually be remains to be seen (my money is on "not at all", thanks to the sweet, sweet status quo) but at best the Alliance's victory led to them not being wiped out by the duo of lolevil jokers who now seeks to wipe out the entire cosmos due to critical levels of edginess. So, yay for team blue?

And game dosent even allow Alliance to enjoy that dubious “moral high ground” we supposedly have because it stubbornly keeps insisting that both factions are morally equal and in parity. No matter how many war crimes horde commits and no matter how many times Alliance forgives them for it.

[Eslizon92]

It's hard to say the Alliance won, considering they didn't actually really achieve any meaningful victory. They didn't manage to kill Sylvanas, Darnassus is w destroyed and the Horde is stronger than it was before the war.

Can't wait for another shitty PvP expansion where the Horde yet again commits heinous war crimes out of nowhere and the Alliance's victory can best be summed up as a moral victory that leaves the Horde in an even better situation to attack later.

How the horde is stronger than it was before the war, if they also lost the majority of his forces and Baine's taurens are serving as Anduin's guard???

The Forsaken can't even create more forsaken anymore.

Alliance won because: Horde started the war to annihilate the alliance, but they failed. At the end both factions lost alot of soldiers, but a least alliance gain a disputed territory. Arathi, and recovered Darkshore. What has the horde won? They just lose territories, take nothing, and the forsakens are going to be extinguished.

Horde isn't in situation to attack anymore. They haven't force at the start of the war to attack SW, they cant attack any alliance territorie now. And with the last add, alliance got all mechagon tech, mechs, airships with plasma guns. We also got the most powerful magues and the Vindicar, which was ignored for bad story design.

In my eyes there is no winner, the Alliance lost most of it's military and only retook one area from the Horde, the other area they claimed from a mostly 3rd party enemy because Arathi was never under Horde control. We don't know exactly how substantial the Hordes losses were, but we know the Alliance were down to their last reserves of actual soldiers. It's safe to assume that Horde lost a lot of their army as well. There are no "winners" from the 4th war.

If the same for the horde. Nathanos said after siegue of Dazar'alor that alliance was pushing in every front and they were near to the victory. That means the horde couldn't have much left.

[Zyky]

If the same for the horde. Nathanos said after siegue of Dazar'alor that alliance was pushing in every front and they were near to the victory. That means the horde couldn't have much left.

Thing is we don't know if he was being truthful or lying to make us push ourselves harder as the "champion".

[rayvio]

nobody ever wins a war
just one side loses a little less

[loras]

Nelfs cant be paladins, cant they?

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And game dosent even allow Alliance to enjoy that dubious “moral high ground” we supposedly have because it stubbornly keeps insisting that both factions are morally equal and in parity. No matter how many war crimes horde commits and no matter how many times Alliance forgives them for it.

No, they can't at present, but that might change sooner or later.

And then Alfred shall rise.

[Powerogue]

On one hand, the Alliance managed some incredibly risky subterfuge by recruiting a deserter to assist in overthrowing the warchief, ultimately succeeding and even being welcomed, even temporarily, into Orgrimmar. Anduin accomplished what even his father could not. but on the other the Horde has gotten away with surprisingly little consequences for the damage done so I'd hardly say they lost that badly.

Shadow's Rising went into it really well I think. It's around page 137-139 that the night elves and Horde leaders have their discussion on the aftermath of the war.

[Jastall]

On one hand, the Alliance managed some incredibly risky subterfuge by recruiting a deserter to assist in overthrowing the warchief, ultimately succeeding and even being welcomed, even temporarily, into Orgrimmar. Anduin accomplished what even his father could not. but on the other the Horde has gotten away with surprisingly little consequences for the damage done so I'd hardly say they lost that badly.

Shadow's Rising went into it really well I think. It's around page 137-139 that the night elves and Horde leaders have their discussion on the aftermath of the war.

The Horde can't face any lasting consequences. Neither can the Alliance for that matter, status quo being essential to having this two-faction MMO run. Gone are the days of the Horde razing Stormwind or the Alliance putting every single Orc they can find in camps, that wouldn't be fun for the players. Which removes all possible tension from a faction war and always makes me ask what the point of it all even is.

[Powerogue]

The Horde can't face any lasting consequences. Neither can the Alliance for that matter, status quo being essential to having this two-faction MMO run. Gone are the days of the Horde razing Stormwind or the Alliance putting every single Orc they can find in camps, that wouldn't be fun for the players. Which removes all possible tension from a faction war and always makes me ask what the point of it all even is.

You're absolutely right, Blizzard would never have the balls to attack/raid/destroy racial hubs or have one group imprisoning/enslaving the others during the faction war. Absolutely never.

(Let's see, burning Stormwind, Raid of Dazar'Alor, dungeon of Boralus sort of counts as Horde can be there, obviously Teldrassil/Undercity, enslaved Darkshore night elves, that maimed town in Stormsong Valley, I don't think I missed any.)

As far as other consequences, Sylvanas is gone, the warchief position is abolished, the unrepentant loyalists are in chains, and the Blood Oath is dead. Much more significant changes than the last overthrown warchief, helping to reinforce that positive change is actually happening this time.

[Sableye]

This another point about WoW's writing in recent years that is bullocks.

There is no world in which the Alliance "run out of manpower" before the Horde does. Most of the Alliance is made of up kingdoms that possess dense city populations supported by vast swathes of farmlands. Stormwind, Kul'Tiras, the Bronzebeards, the Wildhammers, the Dark Iron Dwarves (farming on soil in the Burning Steppes enriched by the volcanic ash), the Gnomergan and Mechagon gnomes, and the Night Elves.

Meanwhile, the vast majority of Horde races are relatively small tribal populations that don't even practice agriculture, capping the maximum number their populations can grow to.

[
Everything points to Alliance forces being at least 10x the size of Horde forces. Even if every Horde soldier suddenly became an ace who could kill 9 Alliance soldiers per 1 Horde soldier, the Horde still loses. And that's not taking into account the vast technological and industrial superiority the Alliance has over the Horde. Machine guns, bombing campaigns, blockades, etc. Put really, the Alliance shouldn't really need to fight the Horde in the first place. The Alliance have the agriculture and the logistics to supply a long campaign. The Horde do not. Realistically after a few months, the Horde forces (and their people back home) should be starving.

Sorry. I know the Horde is cool and all (that's why I played one!), but let's not kid ourselves. This is Japan vs the United States. It's a fight that was doomed from the start. The Horde are screwed on every possible level - manpower, food, technology, logistics - that there is just no way they can win, even if they manage an insane kill ratio. Talanji and the Mag'har Orcs who beat their chests, wanting to go to war with the Alliance in Shadows Rising, are morons.
.

how dare you use logic and anthropology to ruin my fantasy world!

[Zmagoslav]

In war there are no winners.

The alliance were the victors, but at a too high cost...

[mysticx]

The horde is not allowed to have nice things, so the alliance had to win.

Yeah, the Alliance has *so much* to show for the events in BfA, too! /sarcasm

Same as in Cataclysm, any gains made happen entirely off-screen, maybe a few lines in a book somewhere, but that's it, while the losses were displayed in meticulous detail, Blizz really sucks at balancing storytelling in that regard, at the end of any Horde/Alliance story, both sides always feel ripped off.

[Thundering]

Anduin was replaced the moment he left, Jaina's position will be filled by Katherine and Tandred, and Malfurion will continue to lead in Tyrande's absence. Their leadership is doing fine.

The Alliance needs 1 leader not to be divided into their own groups with their own leaders.....

[Verdugo]

The Alliance needs 1 leader not to be divided into their own groups with their own leaders.....

Entire Alliance fuckery is result of there being one leader because writers cant be arsed to write anything other than humans.

[StationaryHawk]

The Alliance needs 1 leader not to be divided into their own groups with their own leaders.....

I disagree. The Alliance cooperated just fine without a High King.

Anduin is also replaceable. If another war breaks out and he hasn't returned, the Alliance can easily select a new High King that will probably serve them better anyways.

[DatToffer]

Entire Alliance fuckery is result of there being one leader because writers cant be arsed to write anything other than humans.

I disagree. The Alliance cooperated just fine without a High King.

Anduin is also replaceable. If another war breaks out and he hasn't returned, the Alliance can easily select a new High King that will probably serve them better anyways.

Agreed with all that. The High-King story bit is a fucking farce. It was all made up to give Varian legitimacy as a returning character and they really overdid it. It was sad to see all the other leaders being brought down (Tyrande is suddenly stupid at war in Pandaria) or cut off the opportunity for character development (You'd think the werewolf king would have a special relationship with the wolf god, well think again).

[geco]

The Alliance needs 1 leader not to be divided into their own groups with their own leaders.....

I think that what the alliance needs is that they take down that extra Pj.
And that it is a group of leaders who watch over their race who ally against common enemies. You already know as an Alliance and not as an empire.

[Broken Fox]

Sylvanas won while the 2 factions fucked each other up hard