"Sorry we are closed nobody wants to work here anymore due to government handouts"

[Glorious Leader]

most of people who are wealthy indeed earned their wealth .

Yea no they did not. Theirs a concept you should look up called unearned income. Its how the wealthy actually get to be wealthy. And since you've provided no actual statistics...

[Krakan]

Also, this is mostly not true. Most people who really get ahead and super well of do it through contacts and nepotism.
Yes, Bill Gates "started Microsoft in a shedd", but he was also from a solidly upper middle or lower upper (or even middle upper) class family. So he could take the financial hit of a start-up.

A lot of very wealthy people become wealthy through partying with the right people. See one of the current POTUS Justices.

A lot of people coast by in life and never do anything to help themselves until it's already to late. There isn't anything wrong with renting a small room and living modestly while learning a skill. The disconnect here is people think the default is you have luxuries like multiple room,ac, not being mindful of electricity used, a car ,and other luxuries.

I believe a ubi system would let to many people just exist till the system causes such vast inflation it collapses accomplishing little beyond wiping out savings.

I think the concept of ubi comes from a good place much like communism but like communism it will end in utter disaster.

[Twdft]

I believe a ubi system would let to many people just exist till the system causes such vast inflation it collapses accomplishing little beyond wiping out savings.

Why would an UBI cause vast inflation?

Germany already has a Basic Income that's not really Universal yet though. You get €446 plus rent for a shitty appartment, provided you constantly look for work and you have to take any shit job the agency sources for you. That hasn't caused any vast inflation so far and if we drop the need to look for work wouldn't change a thing. Even if we'd make it actually Universal and pay it every citizen not only out of work and poor 65+ yo all that'd happen would be companies reducing everyones wages by the amount of UBI paid. And to be honest that would be fine with me because it would mean that shitty jobs paying barely more than basic income now would have to pay better to pursuade people to do them when they are not obligated by law anymore.

[Endus]

oh yes - how dare his parents work hard to provide their kids with that.

Where did I ever say or imply it was a bad thing for parents to do?

I just stated it's an example of privilege. That you were better off than many others, and should recognize that you had that leg up.

like a good communist you for sure would strip everyone from every property their families got over generations for sake of lazy people.

I didn't suggest any such thing, and that you describe literally any position other than "fuck you, got mine" as "communism" is a personal problem.

the reason people get there is by hardwork and work ethics that they later teach their kids . its not priviledge - its 99% hard work of parents and grandparents.

There is, again, mountains of actual evidence that proves your wrong on this. That's already been provided.

And you have zero evidence to back your position.

Edit: Also; having parents and grandparents that dedicated to supporting their children is, yet again, privilege.

Imagine you grew up a gay kid with super religious conservative parents, and when you came out to them at 16 they disowned you and kicked you out of the house. Think that kid had as easy a time as you when it came to moving forward with their life?

[Krakan]

Why would an UBI cause vast inflation?

Germany already has a Basic Income that's not really Universal yet though. You get €446 plus rent for a shitty appartment, provided you constantly look for work and you have to take any shit job the agency sources for you. That hasn't caused any vast inflation so far and if we drop the need to look for work wouldn't change a thing. Even if we'd make it actually Universal and pay it every citizen not only out of work and poor 65+ yo all that'd happen would be companies reducing everyones wages by the amount of UBI paid. And to be honest that would be fine with me because it would mean that shitty jobs paying barely more than basic income now would have to pay better to pursuade people to do them when they are not obligated by law anymore.

If it came with the stipulation you had to work I would be more comfortable with it though I would hope it would be government projects not private organizations.

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Where did I ever say or imply it was a bad thing for parents to do?

I just stated it's an example of privilege. That you were better off than many others, and should recognize that you had that leg up.



I didn't suggest any such thing, and that you describe literally any position other than "fuck you, got mine" as "communism" is a personal problem.



There is, again, mountains of actual evidence that proves your wrong on this. That's already been provided.

And you have zero evidence to back your position.

Edit: Also; having parents and grandparents that dedicated to supporting their children is, yet again, privilege.

Imagine you grew up a gay kid with super religious conservative parents, and when you came out to them at 16 they disowned you and kicked you out of the house. Think that kid had as easy a time as you when it came to moving forward with their life?

Even working alone at 16 your able to save money... the main disagreement we seem to have is what level of comfort should society provide you with. There are those that will never succeed in society the question always comes down to just how much should they be provided for.

[Endus]

A lot of people coast by in life and never do anything to help themselves until it's already to late. There isn't anything wrong with renting a small room and living modestly while learning a skill. The disconnect here is people think the default is you have luxuries like multiple room,ac, not being mindful of electricity used, a car ,and other luxuries.

You have a seriously deviated concept of what "luxuries" are.

I believe a ubi system would let to many people just exist till the system causes such vast inflation it collapses accomplishing little beyond wiping out savings.

Why would it ever create inflation? "Inflation" is seriously just used as a boogeyman by right-wingers. Higher minimum wage? Inflation. Student loan forgiveness? Inflation! Provision of affordable housing? INFLATION!

Cost-pull inflation with regards to incomes is borderline nonexistent for most products and services. The portion of their price points that constitute wages that would be affected by improvements to minimum wages and other anti-poverty measures are almost negligible. This is why countries with high minimum wages don't pay $30 for a Big Mac at McDonalds; they pay pretty close to the same price Americans do, because minimum wage labor even in an industry that relies on it simply isn't that big a factor to the price point.

Demand-pull inflation is a bit more complicated, but largely only occurs when production can't scale up due to resource limitations. If production can be expanded, inflation is not what happens; increased productivity is what happens, more employment, the company makes more profit, etc.

Nor can increased corporate or income taxes possibly contribute to inflation, directly. Literally not possible given how they're structured. They can indirectly contribute, when corporations and the wealthy decide to jack up prices to increase their profits, but that's not a direct result of the tax increases, it's a direct result of the greed and exploitation of the wealthy.

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Even working alone at 16 your able to save money...

And so we keep going with people utterly failing to understand poverty.

the main disagreement we seem to have is what level of comfort should society provide you with. There are those that will never succeed in society the question always comes down to just how much should they be provided for.

This isn't that frigging complicated.

1> Society cannot provide 100% employment for the labor force. There simply is not enough work to go around. Even if you could perfectly match every single job opening with a perfectly-suited worker who's local to the area, there would still be job-seekers without a job. And that's excluding all the non-job-seekers who need to be supported, like retirees, the disabled, children, etc.

2> Given that there will, necessarily, always be a segment of the population who cannot work either because of disability, age, or lack of opportunity, society can either support them, or not.

3> Not supporting them means letting them starve to death in a ditch. Supporting them poorly means you're ensuring they suffer. Either way; your society is predicated on the establishment and maintenance of human misery and suffering. Not by accident, by deliberate and intentional choice.

4> Supporting them properly means they aren't suffering hardship. Note that the modern USA does not reach this point, at all. The USA is solidly part of #3 up there. So are most Western nations, if not all.

You're picking between 3 and 4. Are you a society that creates and maintains a degree of suffering and hardship for "undesirables", as a conscious choice of policy? Or are you not? It's one of the two.

[Twdft]

You're picking between 3 and 4. Are you a society that creates and maintains a degree of suffering and hardship for "undesirables", as a conscious choice of policy? Or are you not? It's one of the two.

That's the big fight ahead for humanity. Too many people think 3 is the natural order of things, too brainwashed to see we should strive for 4, even though 4 is technically in all our constitutions. Human dignity shall be inviolable. Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

[Krakan]

You have a seriously deviated concept of what "luxuries" are.



Why would it ever create inflation? "Inflation" is seriously just used as a boogeyman by right-wingers. Higher minimum wage? Inflation. Student loan forgiveness? Inflation! Provision of affordable housing? INFLATION!

Cost-pull inflation with regards to incomes is borderline nonexistent for most products and services. The portion of their price points that constitute wages that would be affected by improvements to minimum wages and other anti-poverty measures are almost negligible. This is why countries with high minimum wages don't pay $30 for a Big Mac at McDonalds; they pay pretty close to the same price Americans do, because minimum wage labor even in an industry that relies on it simply isn't that big a factor to the price point.

Demand-pull inflation is a bit more complicated, but largely only occurs when production can't scale up due to resource limitations. If production can be expanded, inflation is not what happens; increased productivity is what happens, more employment, the company makes more profit, etc.

Nor can increased corporate or income taxes possibly contribute to inflation, directly. Literally not possible given how they're structured. They can indirectly contribute, when corporations and the wealthy decide to jack up prices to increase their profits, but that's not a direct result of the tax increases, it's a direct result of the greed and exploitation of the wealthy.

- - - Updated - - -



And so we keep going with people utterly failing to understand poverty.



This isn't that frigging complicated.

1> Society cannot provide 100% employment for the labor force. There simply is not enough work to go around. Even if you could perfectly match every single job opening with a perfectly-suited worker who's local to the area, there would still be job-seekers without a job. And that's excluding all the non-job-seekers who need to be supported, like retirees, the disabled, children, etc.

2> Given that there will, necessarily, always be a segment of the population who cannot work either because of disability, age, or lack of opportunity, society can either support them, or not.

3> Not supporting them means letting them starve to death in a ditch. Supporting them poorly means you're ensuring they suffer. Either way; your society is predicated on the establishment and maintenance of human misery and suffering. Not by accident, by deliberate and intentional choice.

4> Supporting them properly means they aren't suffering hardship. Note that the modern USA does not reach this point, at all. The USA is solidly part of #3 up there. So are most Western nations, if not all.

You're picking between 3 and 4. Are you a society that creates and maintains a degree of suffering and hardship for "undesirables", as a conscious choice of policy? Or are you not? It's one of the two.

Will start with the end and work my way up.

Yes I am picking between three and four of your example though the reasoning behind it isn't arbitrary. You yourself see the breaking points of offering unconditional support and a more lavish life style. Inflation is as much a reality as gravity when you increase pay without touching anything else. As certain as the tides and as predictable as the sun rising.

Bemoaning the fact that inflation isn't primarily driven by greed doesn't change that fact. I find your ambitions noble I just don't think they are sustainable. Hardships are required to improve while it's natural to seek to reduce and limit them you can never remove them.

[Endus]

Will start with the end and work my way up.

Yes I am picking between three and four of your example though the reasoning behind it isn't arbitrary. You yourself see the breaking points of offering unconditional support and a more lavish life style.

Describing a modicum of basic comforts a "lavish lifestyle" is just rank misanthropy.

Inflation is as much a reality as gravity when you increase pay without touching anything else. As certain as the tides and as predictable as the sun rising.

That's not how inflation works, no.

Where the hell did you get this particular nugget of nonsense?

Check the history of minimum wage hikes. Absolutely no correlation to inflation rates. The connection you're claiming is essentially nonexistent.

Bemoaning the fact that inflation isn't primarily driven by greed doesn't change that fact. I find your ambitions noble I just don't think they are sustainable. Hardships are required to improve while it's natural to seek to reduce and limit them you can never remove them.

"Hardships are required to improve" is just misanthropy.

Next you'll suggest people should beat their children "for their own good". It's the same horse shit argument.

[Edge-]

Next you'll suggest people should beat their children "for their own good". It's the same horse shit argument.

No, send those kids to the coal mine and factory lines. Teach them the virtues of hard work and personal sacrifice at a young age! You can't improve without personal suffering, it's apparently required!

[Deathknightish]

Never understood why AMericans with fast food jobs, and similar jobs with no tipping, earn so little.

According to this: https://www.indeed.com/cmp/McDonald%27s/salaries, a McDonald employee who works flipping burgers earns like 1664 dollars a month. That's about 700 dollars less than the same worker would earn in my country, Sweden, where the average salary across all people is very similar. Here anybody above 20 earns 2409 dollars a month.

Sure, Americans pay less taxes but even after taxes the difference will be the difference between living a quite decent life and having to work two jobs at once.

[Captain N]

Never understood why AMericans with fast food jobs, and similar jobs with no tipping, earn so little.

According to this: https://www.indeed.com/cmp/McDonald%27s/salaries, a McDonald employee who works flipping burgers earns like 1664 dollars a month. That's about 700 dollars less than the same worker would earn in my country, Sweden, where the average salary across all people is very similar. Here anybody above 20 earns 2409 dollars a month.

Sure, Americans pay less taxes but even after taxes the difference will be the difference between living a quite decent life and having to work two jobs at once.

We pay less taxes but those workers often don't have access to medical insurance, and they're definitely not getting full time hours. Americans have a hard on for wanting people to suffer even if it eventually results in themselves suffering in the long run.

[Deathknightish]

We pay less taxes but those workers often don't have access to medical insurance, and they're definitely not getting full time hours. Americans have a hard on for wanting people to suffer even if it eventually results in themselves suffering in the long run.

Yeah, I've heard you pay like 15% at that level while here they pay like 21%, but even then after taxes our McDonalds worker earns more after taxes than the American does before taxes.

[Captain N]

Yeah, I've heard you pay like 15% at that level while here they pay like 21%, but even then after taxes our McDonalds worker earns more after taxes than the American does before taxes.

Well that's just it. We pay lower to our service workers AND they don't get the benefits that you guys get for that extra 6% in taxes. You can't tell Americans that giving a McDonald's employee a raise or healthcare is beneficial either or they'll go into some rant about prices going through the roof, or that you'll die waiting to see a doctor. You guys have it better and are a benchmark for how things should be...

[Yadryonych]

Americans have a hard on for wanting people to suffer even if it eventually results in themselves suffering in the long run.

They don't want people to suffer, they want them to struggle, overcome and emerge from it as better selves thus improving society as a whole. Protestant ethics, if you'd like. Not the ubuntu primal ethics where we share the last few leftovers, end up with nothing and live happily knowing everyone's life is equally shitty and no one is more "privileged" than the other

[Endus]

We pay less taxes but those workers often don't have access to medical insurance, and they're definitely not getting full time hours. Americans have a hard on for wanting people to suffer even if it eventually results in themselves suffering in the long run.

Americans don't even really pay much less taxes.

https://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=TABLE_I6

Looking at single person with no kids, here's countries where the average personal income tax rate is lower than the USA's (in no particular order);

Canada
Australia
New Zealand
The UK
Japan
Korea

And Sweden and Ireland are so close it's basically irrelevant.

The idea that personal taxes in the USA are lower than any other developed country is just . . . wrong.
Nor are they higher, as the same list shows. US tax rates are just; pretty typical. Nothing to write home about.

[Captain N]

They don't want people to suffer, they want them to struggle, overcome and emerge from it as better selves thus improving society as a whole. Protestant ethics, if you'd like. Not the ubuntu primal ethics where we share the last few leftovers, end up with nothing and live happily knowing everyone's life is equally shitty and no one is more "privileged" than the other

Strange concept there considering we've got enough evidence that American social mobility is terrible compared to the rest of the first world. As for suffering improving society that's laughable considering the US leads the world in incarceration rates and crime is directly tied to poverty. If you want to describe "leftovers" we already have that...it's called trickle down economics where the guys at the top get 9 of the 10 cookies leaving workers across the board fighting over the last one. The difference is you got your mouth firmly around the dick of that type of system....the rest of us are tired of the country continuing to give that 10th cookie to the people who already have the rest.

Americans don't even really pay much less taxes.

https://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=TABLE_I6

Looking at single person with no kids, here's countries where the average personal income tax rate is lower than the USA's (in no particular order);

Canada
Australia
New Zealand
The UK
Japan
Korea

And Sweden and Ireland are so close it's basically irrelevant.

The idea that personal taxes in the USA are lower than any other developed country is just . . . wrong.
Nor are they higher, as the same list shows. US tax rates are just; pretty typical. Nothing to write home about.

Wow that's pretty terrible for the United States then. We could do all the things those other countries do and it wouldn't phase us a bit. So it's basically right-wing fearmongering and bootstrap nonsense that gets people to believe that folks deserve to suffer?

[Endus]

They don't want people to suffer, they want them to struggle, overcome and emerge from it as better selves thus improving society as a whole. Protestant ethics, if you'd like.

Which are largely bullshit, and predicated on suffering. That's what "struggling to overcome" means.

Nor is there any sociological evidence of such "improvement"; all markers tied to poverty suggest it only exacerbates social ills.

Pseudo-religious nonsense is best left in the dustbin of history, not used to justify modern sadism-as-political-theory.

Not the ubuntu primal ethics where we share the last few leftovers, end up with nothing and live happily knowing everyone's life is equally shitty and no one is more "privileged" than the other

Wherein you unapologetically and unironically suggest people are better off suffering so the rich can get more rich, than cooperating and being happy together.

Man, you've drunk all the kool-aid.

[XDurionX]

The staggering amount of people here arguing against their own interests is proof we'll never get anywhere in society.

[Muzjhath]

Never understood why AMericans with fast food jobs, and similar jobs with no tipping, earn so little.

According to this: https://www.indeed.com/cmp/McDonald%27s/salaries, a McDonald employee who works flipping burgers earns like 1664 dollars a month. That's about 700 dollars less than the same worker would earn in my country, Sweden, where the average salary across all people is very similar. Here anybody above 20 earns 2409 dollars a month.

Sure, Americans pay less taxes but even after taxes the difference will be the difference between living a quite decent life and having to work two jobs at once.

The biggest difference is that McD in Sweden have Union contracts.