Sylvanas’ Culpability *spoilers*

[Varx]

I know many aren’t happy with the SOD finale but I personally think it’s set up an interesting situation with Sylvanas.

First of, she wasn’t redeemed. She didn’t apologies for everything she’s done. The Jailor just hit a nerve with his “all will serve me” BS. I’m sure that is not what he originally sold her.

Now with her soul being fully restored we can see what kind of retrospect she’ll have on her own actions. She wasn’t mind controlled, she still had her free will, but she was heavily manipulated and influenced by the lack of her “good half”.

Now that its back, will she accept w/e punishment is deemed for her? How will the other characters react to the fact that the Sylvanas they knew and fought was essentially a mislead version of who she could have been.

It’s very interesting to me since we’re not dealing with mind control here but something different entirely.

It’s like having someone with sever mental health issues has an episode and severely injures someone or even kills them, and then the public finds out their spouse or parents deliberately kept them from taking medication. How would you OBJECTIVELY feel about it then? It's important to look at it as a viewer and not your nelf character. Of course she’s still responsible, but it’s not entirely black and white.

I personally think Sylvanas will stay behind in the Shadowlands after we defeat the Zovaal. Perhaps takes his place in the Maw as atonement as the new Jailor of the damned. Basically what happened to Illidan. Being thrown into Blizz’s lore vault until they’re needed once more.

[Skirdus]

It’s like having someone with sever mental health issues has an episode and severely injures someone or even kills them, and then the public finds out their spouse or parents deliberately kept them from taking medication. How would you OBJECTIVELY feel about it then?

If that same someone caused the deaths of tens of thousands of innocents - mental health issues or not - I would want them to be given the death sentence.

Being mentally ill does not pardon you from committing crimes on that kind of scale.

[Triceron]

Whether or not she apologizes, she will be redeemed because the writers are biased towards her.

I mean at this point I can see them writing the other characters forgetting the past and being sympathetic towards her simply due to the writers lacking any consistent characterization, exactly the way they handled Tyrande's Night Warrior arc and literally going nowhere with it. At this point, Tyrande completely forgiving Sylvanas can and will be a thing because that's the direction the story is going.

Objectively speaking, we know the writers are biased, so expecting any moderate outcome is foolish.

[Varodoc]

What should happen is that she gets executed for her countless atrocities. Ambermill, Gilneas, Teldrassil, the Fourth War, etc. etc. etc. Both Alliance and Horde absolutely despise her and should want her dead.

What will happen is that she will become the new Jailer or the new Arbiter, because Danuser has a Sylvanas body pillow.

What will never happen is a second Windrunner Reunion where Sylvanas can finally see Alleria and Vereesa with new eyes, this will never happen because that would mean some character development for Alleria. And Blizzard hates her so that won't happen. They hate Vereesa too, it's been like 12 years and she still has a generic NPC model.

Regardless Sylvanas becoming the next Jailer makes the most logical sense because it will be punishment; she will be forced to spend the rest of her miserable existence in the Maw, the hell she spent so long trying to avoid. Though I'd just prefer if they cut her head off, impaled it on the top of Stormwind Keep, and called it a day really. But it's never that easy when it comes to Danuser and Sylvanas

[Varx]

If that same someone caused the deaths of tens of thousands of innocents - mental health issues or not - I would want them to be given the death sentence.

Being mentally ill does not pardon you from committing crimes on that kind of scale.

Of course not, don't get me wrong. But it's not entirely black and white.

But would the needle truly be justice? Or would it be revenge?

i think Sylvanas spending eternity in the maw as the Jailer of the damned would be a fitting punishment.

[Myradin]

Her 'mental health issues' doomed effectively the entire universe.

People have been put to death in wow for occupying some land or stealing some supplies. Sometimes they too have 'mental health issues' or are merely you know, trying to survive.

The only justice for her would be to destroy her soul utterly and use the bronze dragonflight to make sure it can never be undone.

Of course not, don't get me wrong. But it's not entirely black and white.

But would the needle truly be justice? Or would it be revenge?

i think Sylvanas spending eternity in the maw as the Jailer of the damned would be a fitting punishment.

We've already seen the Maw is very escapable. Giving her immortality just gives her time to find a way to escape.

[Varx]

But why feel this way if you know that she was not herself fully. Again, imagine some evil person deliberately withheld psych meds to an individual with mental health issues and that same individual severely hurts someone because of that.

Try to be objective. What is the level of culpability? Cuz it sure as hell isn't the same as a mentally sane person doing the same act willingly.

Hell we're not even dealing with mental issues in this scenario with Sylv but instead forced undeath that sundered the "good" portion of her soul and hidden from her.

[Varodoc]

But why feel this way if you know that she was not herself fully. Again, imagine some evil person deliberately withheld psych meds to an individual with mental health issues and that same individual severely hurts someone because of that.

Try to be objective. What is the level of culpability? Cuz it sure as hell isn't the same as a mentally sane person doing the same act willingly.

Hell we're not even dealing with mental issues in this scenario with Sylv but instead forced undeath that sundered the "good" portion of her soul and hidden from her.

Bruh No one cares about her cringe sob sad story, she burned children in their home, there's no excuse for that.

No mentally sane person would commit genocide in the first place so your argument is completely meaningless.

[Varx]

Her 'mental health issues' doomed effectively the entire universe.

People have been put to death in wow for occupying some land or stealing some supplies. Sometimes they too have 'mental health issues' or are merely you know, trying to survive.

The only justice for her would be to destroy her soul utterly and use the bronze dragonflight to make sure it can never be undone.



We've already seen the Maw is very escapable. Giving her immortality just gives her time to find a way to escape.

You're assuming she doesn't think she should answer for her crimes, which im sure she will now.

I don't think oblivion would be justice for her, it's revenge for a nelf mother who lost her kids in the fire, but its not justice. Try to be Objective.

[Biomega]

If that same someone caused the deaths of tens of thousands of innocents - mental health issues or not - I would want them to be given the death sentence.

Being mentally ill does not pardon you from committing crimes on that kind of scale.

You're oversimplifying how this works in most legal systems. There is no simple "mentally ill" status, that somehow exculpates people - "mental illness" is a vague term covering an entire catalog of conditions. What matters in law is, basically, this: was the perpetrator capable of discerning right from wrong at the time? A number of physiological and psychological conditions can impair that capacity. The basic underlying principle is the "mens rea", the "guilty mind" - i.e. did that person actually intend to commit a crime. In many legal systems, this is actually a necessary part of something being a crime (as opposed to some other infraction); it doesn't mean you're absolved of responsibility for your actions, of course, but it may change the legal status of those actions. The classic example is a prisoner escaping, and taking another prisoner hostage as they do so; technically that second prisoner also escaped, but since that was not what they wanted to do, it's not a (legal) crime, while the first one is.

When we get into Sylvanas' situation, it mostly boils down to what her having a "soul" means. Is it the soul that allows her to discern right from wrong? Does the soul give her free will, or more free will, or whatever else? Is the soul what gives her the capacity to do "good"?

If her having lost her soul meant she COULDN'T do good, or that she could only do evil, or that she couldn't discern right from wrong, it's hard to assign culpability - despite what she has done. But that would, of course, require a very simplistic, very black-and-white model of morality in WoW that is governed chiefly by the "soul". I doubt it's as simple as that, but we have to allow for a variety of exculpating factors. Whether or not those factors ACTUALLY come into play we have to see.

[Varx]

Bruh No one cares about her cringe sob sad story, she burned children in their home, there's no excuse for that.

No there isn't, but you need to ask yourself, would she have done it if her soul was whole.

[VladlTutushkin]

You're assuming she doesn't think she should answer for her crimes, which im sure she will now.

I don't think oblivion would be justice for her, it's revenge for a nelf mother who lost her kids in the fire, but its not justice. Try to be Objective.

You want objectivity? Sure.

In actual criminal justice when criminal is mentally ill they are not put in jail…

But put in asylum instead and kept under heavy medication and guard.

So she must be locked in Revendreth, put to an anima drain and kept sedated/subdued by the assigned caretakers.

[Myradin]

But why feel this way if you know that she was not herself fully. Again, imagine some evil person deliberately withheld psych meds to an individual with mental health issues and that same individual severely hurts someone because of that.

Try to be objective. What is the level of culpability? Cuz it sure as hell isn't the same as a mentally sane person doing the same act willingly.

Hell we're not even dealing with mental issues in this scenario with Sylv but instead forced undeath that sundered the "good" portion of her soul and hidden from her.

She deserves to be dead. She lived, she died. She can rest in peace.

If i died and came back as an evil zombie that tried to destroy the universe, if I got 'reunited with my soul' i'd just want to be offed too.

Being dead is a mercy to 'good sylvannus'. Leaving her in the maw would just be torturing her good half, and giving her bad half reason to seek revenge.

And I'd say a 'mentally sane' person dong blatently horrible things isn't mentally sane, even if they are somehow clinically so.

[Varx]

You want objectivity? Sure.

In actual criminal justice when criminal is mentally ill they are not put in jail…

But put in asylum instead and kept under heavy medication and guard.

So she must be locked in Revendreth, put to an anima drain and kept sedated/subdued by the assigned caretakers.

So then you, believe she should EVENTUALLY be redeemed, if she's residing in revendreth. Okay that's fair.

I personally think that SHE WILL THINK she would not be deserving of that and would willingly want to be condemned as the maw's jailer after zovaal's defeat.

[Soon-TM]

So Sylv is getting effectively redeemed now? Man, I just cannot understand why are so many human paladin LARP'ers who thought she would face any sort of trial and/or retribution, they still don't get the concept of Evil Sue, redeemed variant.

[Clone]

Bruh No one cares about her cringe sob sad story, she burned children in their home, there's no excuse for that.

No mentally sane person would commit genocide in the first place so your argument is completely meaningless.

How does that make his argument meaningless? Sylvanas is being compared to somebody that's not mentally sane in this discussion.

[Ivarr]

I’m sure that is not what he originally sold her.

Now with her soul being fully restored we can see what kind of retrospect she’ll have on her own actions. She wasn’t mind controlled, she still had her free will, but she was heavily manipulated and influenced by the lack of her “good half”.

It's still not clear what he sold her, or how anything he could have promised her would validate her actions further than being a selfish cunt.

[Varx]

So Sylv is getting effectively redeemed now? Man, I just cannot understand why are so many human paladin LARP'ers who thought she would face any sort of trial and/or retribution, they still don't get the concept of Evil Sue, redeemed variant.

It's not a simple redemption scenario.

We're talking about someone who was lacking mental clarity as per the actions of a death god and now has her perspective fully restored.

It's not like, "oh I did bad but now I regret it, let me make it up to you".

It's more like "Holy shit what have I done??!?!?" after taking your psych medication.

[Clone]

You want objectivity? Sure.

In actual criminal justice when criminal is mentally ill they are not put in jail…

But put in asylum instead and kept under heavy medication and guard.

So she must be locked in Revendreth, put to an anima drain and kept sedated/subdued by the assigned caretakers.

But she's reunited with her good part and no longer mentally ill in the context of this discussion.

[Varx]

It's still not clear what he sold her, or how anything he could have promised her would validate her actions further than being a selfish cunt.

It is clear, it was breaking the wheel of death, fate, and lack of free will, not "ALL WILL SERVE MEH"

That goes against everything she ever stood for.