we should not accept chore content without alternatives

[TrollHunter3000]

ANYTHING that gives player power that affects gameplay, should only be given from activities that require skill.

Anything that requires mindless grinding should be restricted to mounts and other cosmetics.

wait what lmao most people have literally the opposite take.

[Greyvax]

The "time limit" of the maw was just a complete crap idea. I don't want some arbitrary "ok, you've played enough today, come back tomorrow" mechanic in place.

[epigramx]

wait what lmao most people have literally the opposite take.

Who? The entire meme around youtube is that borrowed-power grinding with mundane tasks is awful since Legion.

I'm pretty sure the mass of followers of Asmongold and whoever else is definitely into "most people".

[BeepBoo]

Agree with thread title. Biggest thing I hate in any game now-a-days (which basically every fucking multiplayer game seems to have for some reason?) is the necessity of chore activities designed to suck away hours of my life if I want to be strong and do the fun, rewarding, juicy activities.

[Chipped coin]

The "time limit" of the maw was just a complete crap idea. I don't want some arbitrary "ok, you've played enough today, come back tomorrow" mechanic in place.

I didn't even want to be in the maw in the first place. The gale to kick me out of it.

[Kharnath]

I don't like anything rushed / timed, probably why I don't like racing games.

I use to really enjoy dungeons back in Vanilla where it wasn't just... AoE spam > Boss > AoE spam > Boss.

I liked being able to immerse myself in the dungeon, go to different areas and see things "off the path", but noo that's a waste of time now and a selfish act since the other 4 people in the group expected to finish the dungeon in 23.84 seconds not 23minutes.

Why I play the game solo only now.

[cryriver]

don't play it if you feel like that

[T-34]

I don't like anything rushed / timed, probably why I don't like racing games.

I use to really enjoy dungeons back in Vanilla where it wasn't just... AoE spam > Boss > AoE spam > Boss.

I liked being able to immerse myself in the dungeon, go to different areas and see things "off the path", but noo that's a waste of time now and a selfish act since the other 4 people in the group expected to finish the dungeon in 23.84 seconds not 23minutes.

Why I play the game solo only now.

What stops you now from looking for other people who have the same mindset as you and do dungeons with them?

[Mexh]

This reminds me of going through a fast food drive thru when you order a burger and they forget to give you your fries and drink. You don’t complain and accept it because you have fond childhood memories of coming to this place.

People forget that when you pay for a service you have a right to voice your opinion if you are unhappy. Within reason obviously.

[Lolites]

This reminds me of going through a fast food drive thru when you order a burger and they forget to give you your fries and drink.

with most complaints here its a bit different, like if you order burger, pay for it and then complain you got BURGER and nothing else, when you never realy said you want anything else and nobody ever said you will get anything else

[Chipped coin]

with most complaints here its a bit different, like if you order burger, pay for it and then complain you got BURGER and nothing else, when you never realy said you want anything else and nobody ever said you will get anything else

I think it's more like saying you want a burger ( end game content dungeons, raids , Pvp) and getting it in a bolted down steel cage you can only open by fiddling with it daily for an hour.

[Goatfish]

It's about not wasting the time of humans. If it's gear/player power that is needed for high level content: require high level (or slightly lower) difficulty to achieve it.

You're one of those people who claims a 10 ilvl disparity is the reason you are pulling half the dps as someone else aren't you? I come from the top end raiding scene, these things do make a difference, but people also killed Mythic Sylvanas in mostly Nathria gear. To give you a piece of WoW history to support my point ( https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...-gt-Chronicles )

Gear is a crutch to help people without enough skill to do the content to be able to complete it. Sure it makes it easier, but this attitude of yours is too self-absorbed. It's like saying you NEED upgraded gear to beat Dark souls when there are people out there beating the game naked using a guitar hero controller.

It's about knowing your place, and admitting that some people are better than others. It's strange seeing people fight to turn this into World of Communism because "It's a game and everyone should enjoy it." The whole idea is fucking backwards. People who want to play the game should play it. People who don't want to play the game should not play it. Instead, we have people who don't want to play the game complaining that the developers should change the game itself and fuck everyone who liked it how it was.

[epigramx]

You're one of those people who claims a 10 ilvl disparity is the reason you are pulling half the dps as someone else aren't you?

No so the rest of your "argument' is irrelevant; stop stroking your ego with strawmen. And I wasn't even talking about extreme minmaxing. FOR THE MERE BASICS you have to grind in mundane and repetitive tasks since Legion since you can't even enter a mythic 0 without having grinded for a covenant or a weapon or whatever and if you did not: you will be considered a jerk and disrespectful anyway to the other people that have done it.

[scubi666stacy]

Just like a flask, food, weapon enchants, gems, another soulbind row, etc-etc are tiny % dps increases.

It all adds up.
There are RPG games where the story is what matters.
Most aRGPs, like WoW (don't tell me it's not the best fantasy combat simulator ever) use character progression as one of the MAIN culprits of the genre.
Most WoW players DO LIKE to progress their characters.

Korthia grind is not an "option", is an option WITHOUT ALTERNATIVES. If you could get research & codex rep for grinding dungeons, raids or pvp, then it would be FUCKING OKAY.
To hide this feature behind RNG (!!!) daily quests and a bland zone is a monstrosity and it should NOT exist AT ALL.

This. I am playing casually for quite a while and while Legion allowed me to play casual and without organised groups, I managed to achieve quite a few things. Yes, there has been grind, but I never felt like I suffer from burnout. BfA and SL did exactly that. I am stuck with mind-numbing grindy content if I want to progress my characters because M+ is toxic and I cannot join a raiding guild because I play at totally random hours.

Screw that, I rather prepare my characters for Mage Tower timewalking.

[Tiwack]

You have a choice in this, seek out the content you enjoy and stick to it. They try to accomodate everyone in this game, not everyone finds it fun watching a timer countdown on their screen. M+ is for you, for other's it's not and that's okay.

[Goatfish]

No so the rest of your "argument' is irrelevant; stop stroking your ego with strawmen. And I wasn't even talking about extreme minmaxing. FOR THE MERE BASICS you have to grind in mundane and repetitive tasks since Legion since you can't even enter a mythic 0 without having grinded for a covenant or a weapon or whatever and if you did not: you will be considered a jerk and disrespectful anyway to the other people that have done it.

But that is blatantly untrue and hyperbolic. Nothing I said was anything about min-maxing gear, and you obviously stopped reading my post as soon as you got offended by the first fucking sentence. If you actually read my post, the point is that there have been guilds who take on high end content wearing no epic gear or even use of enchantments that require epic shards.

What is it you are actually wanting? Another Mage Tower but when you beat it you get decked out in top gear instantly? Let's just do our best to think up more ways that someone skilled can get all their gear upgrades in a single reset week and then lose all motivation to stick around and better their character shall we? Sometimes the grind is just the name of life, fucking deal with it.

[Mardux]

wait what lmao most people have literally the opposite take.

Yeah, but clearly that person knows better than nearly everyone.

- - - Updated - - -

Who? The entire meme around youtube is that borrowed-power grinding with mundane tasks is awful since Legion.

I'm pretty sure the mass of followers of Asmongold and whoever else is definitely into "most people".

Careful bud, disparaging remarks against the golden age of legion risks bringing out hivemind to reinforce the echo chamber that is mmoc.

[OrangeJuice]

If you actually read my post, the point is that there have been guilds who take on high end content wearing no epic gear or even use of enchantments that require epic shards.

Who and when? I'm not asking to be an asshole, I'm genuinely curious.

Maybe PvE you can get away without gear and stuff, but in PvP you can't. The lowest increase I've seen on a conduit upgrade is 1%? So if you upgrade from a 180 something to a 252 thats like, at least 10% difference. Thats kinda big. But also, PvPers only get 1-2 conduits from PvP, the rest have to come from shit nobody wants to do. I can tell you literally every single PvPer attempted at some point this expac to prove they're good enough not to need them, and caved in or quit.

The argument "its not even a big deal" is only said by people who don't have them, obviously to justify their laziness.

[Mardux]

But that is blatantly untrue and hyperbolic. Nothing I said was anything about min-maxing gear, and you obviously stopped reading my post as soon as you got offended by the first fucking sentence. If you actually read my post, the point is that there have been guilds who take on high end content wearing no epic gear or even use of enchantments that require epic shards.

What is it you are actually wanting? Another Mage Tower but when you beat it you get decked out in top gear instantly? Let's just do our best to think up more ways that someone skilled can get all their gear upgrades in a single reset week and then lose all motivation to stick around and better their character shall we? Sometimes the grind is just the name of life, fucking deal with it.

You probably shouldn't waste any more of your time on that.... person. You cant win arguments against someone who doesn't base their ideas on logic or critical thought. Especially when they've proven they have no interest in a civil discussion by admitting that they think giving sources and background context is just someone "stroking [their] epeen" because it doesn't line up with their fantasy.

[Chipped coin]

Who and when? I'm not asking to be an asshole, I'm genuinely curious.

Maybe PvE you can get away without gear and stuff, but in PvP you can't. The lowest increase I've seen on a conduit upgrade is 1%? So if you upgrade from a 180 something to a 252 thats like, at least 10% difference. Thats kinda big. But also, PvPers only get 1-2 conduits from PvP, the rest have to come from shit nobody wants to do. I can tell you literally every single PvPer attempted at some point this expac to prove they're good enough not to need them, and caved in or quit.

The argument "its not even a big deal" is only said by people who don't have them, obviously to justify their laziness.

It isn't THAT big beyond maybe a few rare outlines from base to max rank its roughly 1-3% I'm not agreeing it's a valid point he is bringing up just saying it isnt that massive.

I just don't see the point to these systems. Cosmetics exist for reps and if you enjoy the content you dont need grind rewards from it. Games just better off without it.