When did WoW convince itself Raiding is the only thing that's important?

[Osmeric]

The casuals are ussually the last to go. The raiders are the first to stop and quit.

I can't say I believe that's the case, but I'm willing to listen if you have evidence.

[Sucralose]

Funny thing. The hardcore crowd are the most FICKLE crowd in any game.

The casuals are ussually the last to go. The raiders are the first to stop and quit.

I can't see how.. if you give a mythic raider a raid they raid for a quarter of the year. A pvper a season the same.

What has catering to casuals ever gotten anymore? When heroic was made queueable people became apathetic about it and eventually it was nerfed to the ground and was barely used. LFR... I flat out refuse to believe lfr was ever a positive expereince. Scenarios failed utterly and so have alternative progression systems.

What point is there to catering to casuals in wow? You might as well save time and set money on fire you achieve a more positive result. Yes wow was the casual mmo at the time but making it more casual isnt a road map to success. Much like mario is a casual platformer. Removing all the enemies, pits, and timers from the game would make it even more casual and a hell of a lot less successful.

[TBCCLOL]

The players begged them to they demanded it. They wanted free no effort gear and they got it. Raiders tried to convince them it wasn't what they actually wanted through wrath but it fell on deaf ears. No they live in their prison difficulty difficulty mode cut off from the good population.

lmao raiders

i do mythic raiding since SoO and Wrath was the right method what the hell are you saying.


Also no people dont want free gear they want gear that isnt a convoluted rng fiesta like now and doing m+ 300 times for the same item because now it has 10 itm lvl more isnt fun



What People wanted


Doing M+ getting random loot and a currency to pump its itm lvl and that was doable on their alts so they can get entry lvl gear for m+



blizzard decide to remove the achiv and gut any alts



well done

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I can't say I believe that's the case, but I'm willing to listen if you have evidence.

Just play in a CE guild and watch how people quit after CE, not everybody ofc but you dont see that for AOTC

[Ferozan]

If raiding was the only important thing, it wouldn't be so hard to do it.

The entry barrier for new players and the maintenance required for more serious raiders is really high.

The problem is that wow doesn't know whats important, what keeps players of any types playing.

However, for raiders, yes it is the only important thing in the game. The ones that are having the most fun are the ones that like M+, even though they could try being a bit more creative with it. The problem is, since it has to be a competitive environment, fun ideas are not allowed, only curated ones.

[TBCCLOL]

If raiding was the only important thing, it wouldn't be so hard to do it.

It is, that is why we have LFR NORMAL HC MYTHIC VAULT AND WEEKLY FREE ITEM CACHE and M+ ez gear


So people can partecipate to raids too.


If we had the old Vanilla raiding system there will be literally half the playerbase

[Soon-TM]

Just play in a CE guild and watch how people quit after CE, not everybody ofc but you dont see that for AOTC

Idk, my middle of the pack, AotC-focused guild used to run HC several times, for gearing up alts and "boosting" guildies. We went strong through all of Legion, but had a first warning during Uldir, when the shitty BfA systems made most of us unsub after HC G'huun. But we returned for EP, and went strong until SL. Come SL, half the guild went away even before HC Denathrius... And the other half did the same after HC Sylvanas.

None of us intend to return until 10.0 at the very least. Afaik there are only 6 or 7 (former) guildies left in WoW, and ALL of them are in Classic BC.

[Cthulhu 2020]

Late Beta vanilla WoW when Onyxia and Ragnaros were implemented, then 1.0 when the full Molten Core/Ony raids were fleshed out.

Raiding is WoW's pedigree. Unfortunately that pedigree means the new team can't design shit for casual non-raid content.

[Sucralose]

Idk, my middle of the pack, AotC-focused guild used to run HC several times, for gearing up alts and "boosting" guildies. We went strong through all of Legion, but had a first warning during Uldir, when the shitty BfA systems made most of us unsub after HC G'huun. But we returned for EP, and went strong until SL. Come SL, half the guild went away even before HC Denathrius... And the other half did the same after HC Sylvanas.

None of us intend to return until 10.0 at the very least. Afaik there are only 6 or 7 (former) guildies left in WoW, and ALL of them are in Classic BC.

I always wonder what could of been... what if wow didn't burn itself out chasing players who don't want to play an mmorpg and instead just went full tilt on their core playerbase?

I wonder how much we have lost over the years in their misguided attempts to keep lfr billy around for five more minutes.

[Ferozan]

It is, that is why we have LFR NORMAL HC MYTHIC VAULT AND WEEKLY FREE ITEM CACHE and M+ ez gear


So people can partecipate to raids too.


If we had the old Vanilla raiding system there will be literally half the playerbase

You are correct, my bad, my post refers only to mythic. Lfr normals and hc are fine as is.

[Soon-TM]

I always wonder what could of been... what if wow didn't burn itself out chasing players who don't want to play an mmorpg and instead just went full tilt on their core playerbase?

I wonder how much we have lost over the years in their misguided attempts to keep lfr billy around for five more minutes.

WoW being highly accessible and casual friendly (at least by 2004 standards) is one of the core reasons that it was so successful in the first place. Back then, a hardcore MMO would have been DoA against the likes of EQ or UO.

Fast forward to more recent times, the fiasco of Wildstar proved conclusively that hardcore MMOs will never amount to more than a niche genre. And if Wildstar wasn't enough, the debacle of WoD shows clearly what happens when you cater first and foremost to raiders, and throw everyone else under the bus.

[Kralljin]

WoW being highly accessible and casual friendly (at least by 2004 standards) is one of the core reasons that it was so successful in the first place. Back then, a hardcore MMO would have been DoA against the likes of EQ or UO.

I think there is a fine line between catering towards people interested in playing MMO's and catering to a hardcore audience.

You can take Classic, it's not terribly hard, but if you're aversed to the community aspect or that you have to play it on a consistent basis, don't showered in rewards instantly, you're going to struggle in the game.

And frankly, looking at how Retail has been designed for years, i have the impression that at least a portion of the "modern casual audience", is aversed to three things
(1) Socializing - as seen by the rise of automated group tools such as LFD / LFR
(2) Difficulty - as seen by the utter absence of challenge in the lower difficulties / open world
(3) Consistent playtimes - as seen by the rise of the "play the patch" design

I think you can skip out on (2), but when you start out on skipping all three, you pretty much erode massive aspects of MMORPG's.
And considering the success of Classic, it absolutely begs the question whether catering to an audience that is aversed to all three of these things, was worth it down the line.

I will also say however, that a large portion of the modern day hardcore audience seems to have little interest in playing an MMORPG as well, at least one where anything but instanced content matters.

Portraying this as a casual vs. hardcore issue is extremely one dimensional, because again by citing Classic, it's anything but what the modern Hardcore audience wants to play, but it's also not catering to the casual audience of modern WoW.

Fast forward to more recent times, the fiasco of Wildstar proved conclusively that hardcore MMOs will never amount to more than a niche genre. And if Wildstar wasn't enough, the debacle of WoD shows clearly what happens when you cater first and foremost to raiders, and throw everyone else under the bus.

Wildstar is and will always remain a convenient deadbeat argument.

Even if you want to make a hardcore game, you're not going to magically win the hardcore audience unless it's a good game.
Because this is what this argument ignores, it points out that Wildstar was a hardcore game, but doesn't address whether Wildstar was actually good game.

You can throw all the 40man raids and attunements into the game you want, if the game just isn't fun, then you're not going to have a playerbase.

[FelPlague]

Or content which can be played without a schedule or fixed group.

i guess but then like... thats literally everything in the game. everything is casual content if you can simply define it as "without a schedule or fixed group"

M+ casual as like most groups even up to 20's are pugged
Raiding, normal, heroic, and even a fair bit of mythic
PVP, like most of it atleast below 2100 is pugged.

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You are missing my point. Reputations used to tell a story. I was excited to hit honored/revered so that I could unlock the next story or unearth a new Paragon of the klaxxi and with it a new batch of world quests I could do and buffs to choose from. World quests are just shallow and predictable mechanics that exist for the sake of grinding and maybe buy a mount for 50k from a vendor.

yeah, and now they give you all those quests upfront, instead of forcing you to get higher reps to unlock those story quests. thats literally it

are you saying you rather they timegate content more?

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MoP was the last expansion that used the daily system so ill compare it to that. Each expansion SHOULD be improvements compared to previous. They set that expectation and I hold them to it.

no it wasnt, wod also used the daily system... and hell even shadowlands uses it, or did you forget the maw and korthia full of them? aswell as other zones having them aswell.
hell if you want dailies 9.2 is your jam, and locks story content behind doing the research, so that same thing you said you loved about mop reps.

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Just play in a CE guild and watch how people quit after CE, not everybody ofc but you dont see that for AOTC

and then theycome right bakc the next raid, idk if you know this but there is a difference between
"Quitting"
and
"Taking a break"

or do you go to your boss at lunch time and say "i quit" then go have lunch and come back after expecting him to let ya back on?

[Sucralose]

WoW being highly accessible and casual friendly (at least by 2004 standards) is one of the core reasons that it was so successful in the first place. Back then, a hardcore MMO would have been DoA against the likes of EQ or UO.

Fast forward to more recent times, the fiasco of Wildstar proved conclusively that hardcore MMOs will never amount to more than a niche genre. And if Wildstar wasn't enough, the debacle of WoD shows clearly what happens when you cater first and foremost to raiders, and throw everyone else under the bus.

I mean wildstar proved that alternative power progression systems couldnt last... that lesson was ignored and instead everyone hyper focuses on a game ad they saw a decade ago. WoD was a casual expansion... world treasures, apexis, daily revamp. world events, rare mounts, and more. The entire expansion was geared at casuals aka people who dont wanna play a mmorpg.

[Glorious Leader]

That's a pretty small consolation given that you could only get the 2pc from badges .

.

This is partially incorrect.

Aside from that its not about simplicity. Its about less stratification. When they removed tier from the vendor it became clear who was and who wasn't worthy. Compound this with the immediate decision to also tune up the dungeons in cata it was disastrous. Turns out people don't like being told they suck. Explicitly or implicitly.

[Sucralose]

This is partially incorrect.

Aside from that its not about simplicity. Its about less stratification. When they removed tier from the vendor it became clear who was and who wasn't worthy. Compound this with the immediate decision to also tune up the dungeons in cata it was disastrous. Turns out people don't like being told they suck. Explicitly or implicitly.

Then they need to get good. We have gone down this path again and again from making heroic dungeons jokes,lfr, alternative power, covenants. A player who hates playing a multiplier game isnt going to be happy in a multiplayer game.

If you change it to what they want they will beat it in thirty minutes and leave along with everyone else.

[Glorious Leader]

Then they need to get good.

While I respect and understand that answer from a guy on a forum it was probably not the wisest decision for gbostcrawler to also share it as it was unproductive and is in no way reasonable.

Quite apart from the fact that telling people to " get good" rarely works or even motivates them to do so and quite apart from the fact that they can also just opt out (which they did) it is really only further dividing people in a game with a dwindling population.

[Coldkil]

It's just a mix of the game being old, okayerbase being stuck in a loop and strict vertical progression through gear.

Basically, after 16 years people know already everything about the game and how it works. Builds, rotations, gear choices are all basically automated. We have tools to evaluate everything and everything is reduced to numbers where the bigger ones just wins.

It's just natural progression of a game and a playerbase toghether for so long.

The funniest part is that the true hardcore and invested in competetive endgame nucleus is a very small one. These people actually care less about gear because in the race you want to be the faster and not the most geared. In m+ gear is capped at some point.

The impirtance in endgame due to gear rewards is actually supported by the great majority of players - the ones that need that additional piece of gear to be able to beat an encounter. For these players if something doesn't give player power it's useless, so the only relevant things to do are raids, pvp and m+. Blizzard needs to cater to them because they're the bull of their revenue.

[Kokolums]

Funny thing. The hardcore crowd are the most FICKLE crowd in any game.

The casuals are ussually the last to go. The raiders are the first to stop and quit.

wow has fallen from something like 14 million players to 1-3 million players. let me assure you, that wasnt 12 million hardcore players.

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It's just a mix of the game being old, okayerbase being stuck in a loop and strict vertical progression through gear.

Basically, after 16 years people know already everything about the game and how it works. Builds, rotations, gear choices are all basically automated. We have tools to evaluate everything and everything is reduced to numbers where the bigger ones just wins.

It's just natural progression of a game and a playerbase toghether for so long.

The funniest part is that the true hardcore and invested in competetive endgame nucleus is a very small one. These people actually care less about gear because in the race you want to be the faster and not the most geared. In m+ gear is capped at some point.

The impirtance in endgame due to gear rewards is actually supported by the great majority of players - the ones that need that additional piece of gear to be able to beat an encounter. For these players if something doesn't give player power it's useless, so the only relevant things to do are raids, pvp and m+. Blizzard needs to cater to them because they're the bull of their revenue.

i think the thought process is more like:

1. everyone knows buying carries exists and its easy to get one.
2. a m+15 costs 100k gold for i253 loot.
3. for $20 cash, i can buy a token that will net 200k gold, so $10 per M15 carry.
4. i can dump hours and hours into wow to run LFR, build up my toon in low level m+, raid normal, etc. OR just pay $10 per M15 carry and gear up VASTLY more efficiently.
5. you quickly realize actually playing the game at ALL is a waste of time and WoW is set up to cater to whales.
6. you then ask yourself why even bother being a whale, you are just spending money to gear up super fast and no-one even socializes in the game anymore.
7. you log off, cancel the sub, and do something else.

[Arcreid]

I always wonder what could of been... what if wow didn't burn itself out chasing players who don't want to play an mmorpg and instead just went full tilt on their core playerbase?

I wonder how much we have lost over the years in their misguided attempts to keep lfr billy around for five more minutes.

I remember one of the dev quoted that Cataclym early dungeons won't be a problem if they went straight from BC to Cata.

WOTLK made the playerbase weak.

[Dorothyjean]

Most you can do is outdated content you already did in the past. Cmon

Have you done everything in the game... yes or no?

it's that simple. If all you think in WoW is just do past content, get tmogs... I'd wonder why you are even playing the game.